Winnipeg Naming Discussion pt. 2

[PitbulI]

I don't even know what the team name will be. However, if it's something that I'm not a fan of, I won't chant it at a game and I won't buy the merchandise. I will simply hope for that team to win.

There is only one way I will not cheer this teams name and I hope it never happens. I'm good with Polar Bears, Moose, Falcons, Jets and Blizzard though.

From what it sounds like from Chipman, this deal was finalized very close to the deadline TNSE created. I'm not sure they were thinking of team name as hard as they were thinking how to finalize this deal.

There are more important things to do right now over naming the team and creating a logo but that is something that is important. Get the front office setup, free agents signed and players drafted.

 

[David_99]

 

[Brodie]

Honestly, from the sound of it, Chipman is something of a hockey historian. That leads me to believe Falcons is his preferred name... it also seems to be the most acceptable non-Jets name floated thus far.

 

[ranold26]

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

The only way I want the Jets to return is if the NHL not only gives the name but also the history of the Jets to the True North Franchise.

1) The name and all history of the Jets transfer to the True North Farnchise.

2) All Jets history is removed from the Phoenix Coyotes. Nobody in Phoenix cares about Hawerchuk or Hull or Steen or Essensa . Just start their history and records in 1996. All the banners etc are taken down.

3) All history of the Atlanta Thrashers stays in Atlanta. They become a defunct franchise. Like the Seattle Metropolitans, or Ottawa Silver Sevens.

Just giving them the name back isn't good enough. They need the history. And I think that is what True North is trying to do. If they can't, then they shouldn't be the Jets.

Does anyone here think that isn't doable? The NHL owns the Coyotes right now, they could transfer the history of the club back in a minute. And when that club moves on next summer, the Winnipeg history will be even more meaningless to the new owners in Quebec City, KC, or wherever. So none of this seems to be an obstacle, especially if you're willing to accept the Jets name right now and the history maybe next summer.

But regardless, I don't get this "they can't be the Jets, the Jets are in Phoenix" angle. For all intents and purposes, the Jets died in 1996. New name, new city. What do the team records really mean? How is that tangible to, well, anybody? Are there diehard Coyotes fans who revere the memory and stats of Dale Hawerchuk? Are there Jets fans who wouldn't automatically equate the new Jets with the old Jets, regardless of what the NHL record book says?

 

[dkehler]

Does anyone here think that isn't doable? The NHL owns the Coyotes right now, they could transfer the history of the club back in a minute. And when that club moves on next summer, the Winnipeg history will be even more meaningless to the new owners in Quebec City, KC, or wherever. So none of this seems to be an obstacle, especially if you're willing to accept the Jets name right now and the history maybe next summer.

But regardless, I don't get this "they can't be the Jets, the Jets are in Phoenix" angle. For all intents and purposes, the Jets died in 1996. New name, new city. What do the team records really mean? How is that tangible to, well, anybody? Are there diehard Coyotes fans who revere the memory and stats of Dale Hawerchuk? Are there Jets fans who wouldn't automatically equate the new Jets with the old Jets, regardless of what the NHL record book says?

You are correct. It's all just excuses from the very small minority that doesn't want Jets.

 

[KingJet*]

The only way I want the Jets to return is if the NHL not only gives the name but also the history of the Jets to the True North Franchise.

1) The name and all history of the Jets transfer to the True North Farnchise.

2) All Jets history is removed from the Phoenix Coyotes. Nobody in Phoenix cares about Hawerchuk or Hull or Steen or Essensa . Just start their history and records in 1996. All the banners etc are taken down.

3) All history of the Atlanta Thrashers stays in Atlanta. They become a defunct franchise. Like the Seattle Metropolitans, or Ottawa Silver Sevens.

Just giving them the name back isn't good enough. They need the history. And I think that is what True North is trying to do. If they can't, then they shouldn't be the Jets.

Guys, I keep on saying lets move on, the Jets became Coyotes, but yeah I understand the history we lost in Legends like Hawerchuk, Hull and Selanne etc, they shouldn't have moved in the first place, neither Nordiques or Whalers. Should've expanded to Carolina, Colorado and Phoenix.

 

[WingsFan95]

If Phoenix moves to Quebec City......

Chipman will be eaten alive if he doesn't rename the team the Jets.


Again, assuming the team isn't named the Jets.

 

[ps241]

i have thought for a year and half that there is no way it would be the jets...now i think there is no way it wont be....anything else will cause an outrage by a large part of the population no matter how good it is...nobody desperatly wants it to be something else but many desperatly want it to be the jets....there are only varrying degrees of second best as far as other names are concerned.

there is no way they had all this time and didnt have a name and logo made up....they are balking under the wave of public pressure for sure.

if it were me i would announce it with the seventh overall pick at the draft....unveil it on stage when he walks up....what a way to steal the show....huge bang for the buck...would dominate the discussion and headlines.

Peter I agree that there is no way this group didn't have the name ready to go.

They are very sharp people and at a minimum they are figuring out how best to launch their new name or more likely they are looking really hard at the Jets.

Let's say for one second they changed their mind due to the public outcry and TNSE decided on the Jets. That would mean they would have needed time to internally debate....they would have to inform the league of the move and the desire for the history of the team and retired numbers (this would be doable but might have some hair on it).....then they would need to convince any Thrashers Players to switch numbers in conflict with retired numbers unless they changed the policy....maybe a bit sensitive. Then they would need to possibly rebrand with new Jets logo....all printing on tickets and written material. Maybe a deal has to be struck with Manitoba lotteries on a repositioning of deal that may have been contingent on "Manitoba" being part of the name

All these issues and many more I haven't named could be a legit reason this is taking a while!

Peter I like your idea of the rollout concurrent with the 7th overall pick but I have one other idea

TNSE calls a press conference for Friday at noon eastern.....brown introduces Mark Chipman and Mark comes up to the microphone and says "I am here today to tell you that when we originally purchased the Atlanta thrashers we had planned to move forward in a new direction with a new name and had fully prepared for it. Due to the overwhelming outpouring of affection by our fans for the name "Jets" we decided to take time to reflect on this incredibly important decision. This is something we do not take lightly and we hear you. with that being said I would like to announce that we have decided to name our new NHL team the Winnipeg Jets (cue explosion of emotion and pandemonium)......due to the fact this direction was not decided on until last week we will be to going with the traditional sweater for this year and we will be running a contest over our first season for redesign and modernization of our Logo to be unveiled for the start of the 2012-13 season....once again we apologize for the delay and thank everyone for their patience on this highly sensitive and emotionally charged topic"

"we will open the floor now for question"


In my humble opinion this one simple move has little to no downside and a massive upside....they look smarter than ever for listening and adjusting the game plan

One mans opinion

 

[cutchemist42]

Yeah like seriously, no one really cares about the legality of the history. To Coyotes fans they don't nearly appreciate the team's history as much as Jets fans do. There is just too many people saying name them the Jets that TNSE will just look silly if they don't go with it.

The Jets just works for everyone; everyone wants the name and to be honest, other owners will be able to sell a visiting Winnipeg Jets then Manitoba Moose...

 

[Hawker14]

I can't wait to cheer on the Manitoba Mighty Mosquitoes of Winnipeg.

 

[Potrzebie]

But regardless, I don't get this "they can't be the Jets, the Jets are in Phoenix" angle. For all intents and purposes, the Jets died in 1996. New name, new city. What do the team records really mean? How is that tangible to, well, anybody? Are there diehard Coyotes fans who revere the memory and stats of Dale Hawerchuk? Are there Jets fans who wouldn't automatically equate the new Jets with the old Jets, regardless of what the NHL record book says?

Well, one right here. I was a hardcore Jets fan in the 80s and 90s. Calling the new team "The Jets" and chanting "Go Jets Go" would feel too much like playing pretend to me. Especially all this nonsense about "getting our history back". Instead of just pretending the former Thrashers are the Jets, we can pretend that they always have been. Deep down I would know the new team was not, is not, and never will be "The Jets". The Jets left town in 1996 and they ain't coming back.

You are correct. It's all just excuses from the very small minority that doesn't want Jets.

Sadly for you, DKehler, I strongly suspect that "very small minority" includes the guy who owns the team.

 

[dkehler]

Well, one right here. I was a hardcore Jets fan in the 80s and 90s. Calling the new team "The Jets" and chanting "Go Jets Go" would feel too much like playing pretend to me. Especially all this nonsense about "getting our history back". Instead of just pretending the former Thrashers are the Jets, we can pretend that they always have been. Deep down I would know the new team was not, is not, and never will be "The Jets". The Jets left town in 1996 and they ain't coming back.

I can sort of understand that, but seeing as how players, coaches, GMs, even owners change over time, I don't see why you would get hung up on a legal technicality like franchise continuity. NHL team in Winnipeg equals Jets is perfectly reasonable.

Sadly for you, DKehler, I strongly suspect that "very small minority" includes the guy who owns the team.

I suspect you are correct, but I am doing what I can to change his mind.

 

[Positive]

Does anyone here think that isn't doable? The NHL owns the Coyotes right now, they could transfer the history of the club back in a minute. And when that club moves on next summer, the Winnipeg history will be even more meaningless to the new owners in Quebec City, KC, or wherever. So none of this seems to be an obstacle, especially if you're willing to accept the Jets name right now and the history maybe next summer.

But regardless, I don't get this "they can't be the Jets, the Jets are in Phoenix" angle. For all intents and purposes, the Jets died in 1996. New name, new city. What do the team records really mean? How is that tangible to, well, anybody? Are there diehard Coyotes fans who revere the memory and stats of Dale Hawerchuk? Are there Jets fans who wouldn't automatically equate the new Jets with the old Jets, regardless of what the NHL record book says?

When Bill Daly met with TNSE the other week, one of the topics they discussed was the name and branding. One thing that he was emphatic about was, that though the decision is ultimately up to the owners, there are guidelines that each team should follow as to respecting the identity and brands of other teams. Not infringing on them, and establishing their own identity.

For all intents and purposes, the Jets did NOT die in 1996. They moved to Phoenix. It seems like people here don't think much of the Coyote's fans. The attitude towards them is disdainful. I find that disturbing, and a bit sad. Considering that they've done nothing to slight Winnipeg, and have honored past Jets players, etc. Like it or not, I think we have to respect the Phoenix/Jets franchise. Yes, even though it is in limbo right now.

Regardless of the perceived size or passion of the fan bases, don't you think it would be somewhat disrespectful to the Thrashers and Coyotes fans to 'pretend' that this team is somehow the Jets franchise come back? Because it's not.

IMHO, asking the NHL to retcon history and strip it from the Phoenix franchise, stick it on our team, and pretend Atlanta never existed, is absolutely ridiculous.

And don't you think there is enough imagination behind the ownership, and passion with the fans here, that we could look forward and start something strong and fresh, instead of always looking back? There is a great opportunity here for that. I wore a Jets shirt today to the Goldeyes game, I cleaned my old caps the other day, and I dusted off that avatar of the car I designed in Forza to the left. I cried when the Jets left. Even still, I have to say that despite all this nostalgia and sentimentality I feel...I also feel it's a bit like constantly pining for an old girlfriend. It's a little sad, and it holds you back.

Again I think Chipman respects hockey history and continuity within the NHL. That talk Daly had with TNSE must only have reinforced that. Because of this I think the only way we will see the Jets return, is if they are called the Manitoba Jets. And we would not have the history of the Winnipeg Jets no matter what. I think that is firm. I don't think the NHL is willing to rearrange their history so readily.

 

[dkehler]

When Bill Daly met with TNSE the other week, one of the topics they discussed was the name and branding. One thing that he was emphatic about was, that though the decision is ultimately up to the owners, there are guidelines that each team should follow as to respecting the identity and brands of other teams. Not infringing on them, and establishing their own identity.

For all intents and purposes, the Jets did NOT die in 1996. They moved to Phoenix. It seems like people here don't think much of the Coyote's fans. The attitude towards them is disdainful. I find that disturbing, and a bit sad. Considering that they've done nothing to slight Winnipeg, and have honored past Jets players, etc. Like it or not, I think we have to respect the Phoenix/Jets franchise. Yes, even though it is in limbo right now.

Regardless of the perceived size or passion of the fan bases, don't you think it would be somewhat disrespectful to the Thrashers and Coyotes fans to 'pretend' that this team is somehow the Jets franchise come back? Because it's not.

IMHO, asking the NHL to retcon history and strip it from the Phoenix franchise, stick it on our team, and pretend Atlanta never existed, is absolutely ridiculous.

And don't you think there is enough imagination behind the ownership, and passion with the fans here, that we could look forward and start something strong and fresh, instead of always looking back? There is a great opportunity here for that. I wore a Jets shirt today to the Goldeyes game, I cleaned my old caps the other day, and I dusted off that avatar of the car I designed in Forza to the left. I cried when the Jets left. Even still, I have to say that despite all this nostalgia and sentimentality I feel...I also feel it's a bit like constantly pining for an old girlfriend. It's a little sad, and it holds you back.

Again I think Chipman respects hockey history and continuity within the NHL. That talk Daly had with TNSE must only have reinforced that. Because of this I think the only way we will see the Jets return, is if they are called the Manitoba Jets. And we would not have the history of the Winnipeg Jets no matter what. I think that is firm. I don't think the NHL is willing to rearrange their history so readily.

I don't think Phoenix fans really care about the "Winnipeg Jets" history of the team. I think it highly likely that the majority of them would GLADLY give it back to us, just as I personally would allow the Atlanta Thrashers history to remain where it was made.

But Manitoba Jets would be an okay compromise with me and would seem to alleviate continuity concerns.

 

[Sunstroke]

They will still be the jets and we will call them that

When Bill Daly met with TNSE the other week, one of the topics they discussed was the name and branding. One thing that he was emphatic about was, that though the decision is ultimately up to the owners, there are guidelines that each team should follow as to respecting the identity and brands of other teams. Not infringing on them, and establishing their own identity.

For all intents and purposes, the Jets did NOT die in 1996. They moved to Phoenix. It seems like people here don't think much of the Coyote's fans. The attitude towards them is disdainful. I find that disturbing, and a bit sad. Considering that they've done nothing to slight Winnipeg, and have honored past Jets players, etc. Like it or not, I think we have to respect the Phoenix/Jets franchise. Yes, even though it is in limbo right now.

Regardless of the perceived size or passion of the fan bases, don't you think it would be somewhat disrespectful to the Thrashers and Coyotes fans to 'pretend' that this team is somehow the Jets franchise come back? Because it's not.

IMHO, asking the NHL to retcon history and strip it from the Phoenix franchise, stick it on our team, and pretend Atlanta never existed, is absolutely ridiculous.

And don't you think there is enough imagination behind the ownership, and passion with the fans here, that we could look forward and start something strong and fresh, instead of always looking back? There is a great opportunity here for that. I wore a Jets shirt today to the Goldeyes game, I cleaned my old caps the other day, and I dusted off that avatar of the car I designed in Forza to the left. I cried when the Jets left. Even still, I have to say that despite all this nostalgia and sentimentality I feel...I also feel it's a bit like constantly pining for an old girlfriend. It's a little sad, and it holds you back.

Wow...wow


The reason that franchises take the history of the team with them is that no one every expects them to return so it is a way of honoring that legacy,,,,now it seems like a few teams will be returning not just the Jets...yes I did say Jets...perhaps now the best way of honoring that legacy would be to return it to its rightful owners the Jet fans of Winnipeg, Manitoba and millions worldwide...sorry got carried away there but you get my drift there is a better way to do things.

On a side note why in hell is the AVCO cup not on display in the MTS center......

 

[Potrzebie]

I can sort of understand that, but seeing as how players, coaches, GMs, even owners change over time, I don't see why you would get hung up on a legal technicality like franchise continuity. NHL team in Winnipeg equals Jets is perfectly reasonable.

That's where we see things differently. I don't see "franchise continuity" as a "legal technicality"... I see it as it is not the same franchise.

I had a dog named Max. I couldn't afford to keep him, and I only had a 1 room apartment, so I had to give him away to a friend who lives in another city. I have a better job now, and a proper house and yard for a dog, so I'm going to get another dog now. I intend to call him Max. Having a dog named Max just seems... right. I'm going to dress Max up in his old collar and tags. Then I'm going to ask my vet if I can get Max's history back! Then it'll be just like Max never left. I shouldn't get hung up on a little technicality like canine continuity.

I suspect you are correct, but I am doing what I can to change his mind.

I know you are, DKehler. I wish you luck. I know you are being most respectful in the way you are going about it, and for that I applaud you. Others could learn from your example. The "other" NHL in Winnipeg board that I used to enjoy reading sometimes has become a disgrace with all the name bullies running rampant and hijacking every thread - usually by posters who joined in May 2011 and already have over 1,000 posts.

 

[Sunstroke]

AVCO cup

Wow...wow


The reason that franchises take the history of the team with them is that no one every expects them to return so it is a way of honoring that legacy,,,,now it seems like a few teams will be returning not just the Jets...yes I did say Jets...perhaps now the best way of honoring that legacy would be to return it to its rightful owners the Jet fans of Winnipeg, Manitoba and millions worldwide...sorry got carried away there but you get my drift there is a better way to do things.

On a side note why in hell is the AVCO cup not on display in the MTS center......

Perry Miller ...do you think you could 'borrow' the AVCO Cup and put it on Chipmans desk so he can bump into part of Winnipegs hockey heritage...if he cares abnout hockey history like people say he does this might be a nice reminder about the Jets for him

 

[dkehler]

That's where we see things differently. I don't see "franchise continuity" as a "legal technicality"... I see it as it is not the same franchise.

I had a dog named Max. I couldn't afford to keep him, and I only had a 1 room apartment, so I had to give him away to a friend who lives in another city. I have a better job now, and a proper house and yard for a dog, so I'm going to get another dog now. I intend to call him Max. Having a dog named Max just seems... right. I'm going to dress Max up in his old collar and tags. Then I'm going to ask my vet if I can get Max's history back! Then it'll be just like Max never left. I shouldn't get hung up on a little technicality like canine continuity.

Well, a franchise is not a living thing. It's a legal construct. A better example would be if you owned a business that was extremely well known and loved, but you had to sell it to someone out of town who moved it, but didn't keep the name although they had the rights to it. Now you are in a position to reopen your business and the out-of-town owner offered you the name back for free. Why wouldn't you take advantage of that brand recognition and loyalty?

I know you are, DKehler. I wish you luck. I know you are being most respectful in the way you are going about it, and for that I applaud you. Others could learn from your example. The "other" NHL in Winnipeg board that I used to enjoy reading sometimes has become a disgrace with all the name bullies running rampant and hijacking every thread - usually by posters who joined in May 2011 and already have over 1,000 posts.

Thanks.

 

[dobiezeke*]

Well, a franchise is not a living thing. It's a legal construct. A better example would be if you owned a business that was extremely well known and loved, but you had to sell it to someone out of town who moved it, but didn't keep the name although they had the rights to it. Now you are in a position to reopen your business and the out-of-town owner offered you the name back for free. Why wouldn't you take advantage of that brand recognition and loyalty?


Thanks.

You don't own the history of that company. To use your argument if a oil company in Alberta sells it's name and assets to another company, you would not be able to utilize the original name. You sold the company and everything associated to the company including the history.

 

[Positive]

I don't think Phoenix fans really care about the "Winnipeg Jets" history of the team. I think it highly likely that the majority of them would GLADLY give it back to us, just as I personally would allow the Atlanta Thrashers history to remain where it was made.

But Manitoba Jets would be an okay compromise with me and would seem to alleviate continuity concerns.

Maybe I should jump over to the Phoenix board and poll them.

But yep I'll agree with what another poster said...Chipman is probably in that minority that cares about continuity, just like I somewhat do.

 

[dkehler]

You don't own the history of that company. To use your argument if a oil company in Alberta sells it's name and assets to another company, you would not be able to utilize the original name. You sold the company and everything associated to the company including the history.

Yes, but what if they offered you the name, since they are not using it, for free (as the NHL is in this case)? No analogy is going to be bulletproof and this could be a bit of a precedent-setting situation, but it's not even close to insurmountable.

 

[Brazz]

According to this government of Canada link tnse lawyers have filed for the right to the jets logo

http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/t...184&extension=0&startingDocumentIndexOnPage=1

 

[dobiezeke*]

Yes, but what if they offered you the name, since they are not using it, for free (as the NHL is in this case)? No analogy is going to be bulletproof and this could be a bit of a precedent-setting situation, but it's not even close to insurmountable.

But the NHL has stated that the history of the team is owned in Arizona. If TSNE doesn't want to be tied to a name that they can't own the history of why name the team the Jets. As well, is it not disrepectful to lessen the history of the Thrashers, which is the team being purchased, by not assuming their history?

 

[Positive]

Yes, but what if they offered you the name, since they are not using it, for free (as the NHL is in this case)? No analogy is going to be bulletproof and this could be a bit of a precedent-setting situation, but it's not even close to insurmountable.

Hmm, lets say it was a brewery in Winnipeg. 'Prairie Dog Brewery' or something, established in 1972. It has a few original recipes, and it's most well-known is 'Kehler's Amber Ale'. For some reason or another the brewery is sold. It moves it's operations to Phoenix where it's renamed by it's owners as 'Boodweizer Brewery'. On the door it says 'Established 1972' and 'Home of Kehler's Amber Ale'. The original owners of Prairie Dog fade into obscurity.

A few years later a new guy opens a brewery in Winnipeg. Actually what he did was buy an operation in Atlanta and move it up here. Sure, he could name it 'Prairie Dog Brewery' because the name is available. Plenty of reasons to do so, but a lot of reasons not to as well imho.