Winnipeg Naming Discussion pt. 2

[GummoMarx]

If it hasn't been said yet, the Manitoba Warriors.

Hah.

 

[WingsFan95]

See, I care about hockey history, and so do a few others here in this thread, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. I also like to give the Coyotes' fans credit that perhaps they do, even though others may give them no credit all all. Of course, I could likely be very wrong and they perhaps could care less; but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Poor attendance and limbo ownership and all, I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I'll stand by my opinion that shifting around history shouldn't be done lightly, and yes we should acknowledge the Thrashers' history. The one banner, Dan Snyder, and all.

Our balls should be big enough that we should be able to deal with a new name. That is all.

Ok, I'm gonna say it.

Dan Snyder isn't some great legend, his case was a tragedy but it's not the end all be all that the Jets should honor him.

Secondly, the Jets franchise won three Avco Cups and made numerous runs in the playoffs albeit with no division titles.

 

[Positive]

Tail end of this article has some info pertinent to this discussion:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/hockey/snyders-legacy-to-be-carried-on-123679429.html

"Craig was in Atlanta and saw all the things they did for Dan Snyder and we are fully prepared and will be honouring everything to do with him," said director of hockey operations/communications Scott Brown. "Dan Snyder's friends and family should not worry at all about that."

What does provide for an intriguing situation related to this story is this: the Phoenix Coyotes, who have honoured former Jets' legends Bobby Hull, Dale Hawerchuk and Thomas Steen in their ring of honour, own the Jets' history and records. Winnipeg's new franchise owns the Thrashers' history.

So, will Hull, Hawerchuk and Steen see their jerseys hanging from the rafters at the MTS Centre?

"We're a little tentative about retired numbers," Brown said. "Dan Snyder's number (37) was retired in Atlanta, but what if we bring in a free agent who wants to wear No. 37? And then we get into the retired numbers of Winnipeg Jets.

"Those are questions we have to ask ourselves. Retired numbers become very tricky going forward. For example, Evander Kane is No. 9. I don't know this, but I imagine Evander Kane would like to continue wearing No. 9 and we would hope that if we decided to let him continue wearing that number Winnipeg hockey fans would be accepting of that and the step forward in the franchise history rather than focussing on keeping Bobby Hull's No. 9 retired.

"These are all issues we've been discussing, believe me."

 

[ranold26]

Winnipeg Falcon Punches

 

[Charlie Milles*]

Winnipeg Falcon Punches

That's misogynistic. May'swell call them the Fighting Irish -- less offensive.

 

[mikeysvette]

Check out these 'jets' concept logo...love em'

http://www.winnipegjets.info/2011/06/its-game-7-andholy-sht-these-are-great.html

 

[Hawker14]

As has been mentioned, this is merely the NHL updating their trademark of the Jets.

8 Hockey Ventures was a holding company led by Barry Shenkarow, that owned the Jets. 360 McMillan is Mr. Shenkarow's current office location.

 

[BrianL*]

Check out these 'jets' concept logo...love em'

http://www.winnipegjets.info/2011/06/its-game-7-andholy-sht-these-are-great.html

Yes, another excellent example of what the team's uniform won't look like.

 

[saskganesh]

Does the Notre Dame Fighting Irish bother you at all? It perpetuating a racial stereotype and all? It's amazing that this never comes up when people cry about the Blackhawks or the Braves. The anti-white sentiment in modern society is unreal.

It's a relatively positive ethnic stereotype coined by/or for Irish Catholic uni ball players IRC. Not really an issue of cultural appropriation or of allegedly "anti-white" sentiment.

 

[Positive]

By the way, the Puckdrawn.Com Winnipeg Concept contest has closed. Winner yet to be determined. There were 48 submissions total, here's a link to the gallery.

http://www.puckdrawn.com/photos/winnipeg_contest/

 

[likewall32]

Does anyone here think that isn't doable? The NHL owns the Coyotes right now, they could transfer the history of the club back in a minute. And when that club moves on next summer, the Winnipeg history will be even more meaningless to the new owners in Quebec City, KC, or wherever. So none of this seems to be an obstacle, especially if you're willing to accept the Jets name right now and the history maybe next summer.

But regardless, I don't get this "they can't be the Jets, the Jets are in Phoenix" angle. For all intents and purposes, the Jets died in 1996. New name, new city. What do the team records really mean? How is that tangible to, well, anybody? Are there diehard Coyotes fans who revere the memory and stats of Dale Hawerchuk? Are there Jets fans who wouldn't automatically equate the new Jets with the old Jets, regardless of what the NHL record book says?

As someone who has worked for various pro sports teams (alas, as a ***** intern), I have worked with statistics in all sorts of ways. A franchise's history is important for several reasons and can have importance to many parties.

For starters, there are the fans. A certain team's fans have come under scrutiny for not caring about where their team came from, but yet they do the whiteout and celebrate the best players that came along with their team. Telling them that their history is no longer theirs is not just silly in general, but kinda invalidating. Almost as if I gave up a child (probably gonna get roasted here) to someone who could take better care of it, let that person/people provide care for 15 years, and then attempt to take your child back when you're better able to provide care.

After the fans, there's the media. The media cares way too much about statistics, but mainly because there is a call for it from all other parties. People gobble up milestones and the like, but that's besides the point. Franchises have histories, even if they move. There are records for many franchises that are created in one city and continued in another, or created in one city and then surpassed in another. Things like all-time records are important because they speak to everything having to do with the team, and even though may happen in one place with someone who played somewhere else, it provides a great insight as to how a franchise has been run when relocated elsewhere.

Lastly, and this will probably get me roasted too, there are the players. To take a team's history from one city only might mean splitting up their statistics, and lessening them greatly. If someone has a franchise record currently, and then they have their numbers taken from before a move, they might no longer hold that record. It might seem trivial, but it also serves to invalidate their hard work for what, needy people who want to recapture the past long gone?

There's a whole addition of what happens to the Thrashers history, which seemingly would just get erased from all memory, something that would serve to alienate the fans, media, and players who were affiliated with the Thrashers organization while they were in Atlanta all in one fell swoop.

Sure, they could just ignore all this and possibly shrug it off as minutia, but it would only serve to many as a further stamp on the NHL's Mickey Mouse status amongst the pro leagues of the world because even though the fans of the new team may not care about any of it, there will be plenty of people that will.

(for the record, I disagree with the way the Cleveland Browns handled their history retention, and am not a fan of the idea of that becoming any sort of precedent)

EDIT: made a contradiction in last sentence.

 

[Dupree13]

The franchise history stuff has no importance in and of itself. It only matters to the extent that people choose to see it as something that matters. Personally I could care less about it.

 

[peter sullivan]

i like this one a lot.

 

[Charlie Milles*]

It's a relatively positive ethnic stereotype coined by/or for Irish Catholic uni ball players IRC. Not really an issue of cultural appropriation or of allegedly "anti-white" sentiment.

It was actually a racial slur in New England in the 19th century. A stereotype that the Irish were drunken barbarians.

 

[Stephen]

As someone who has worked for various pro sports teams (alas, as a ***** intern), I have worked with statistics in all sorts of ways. A franchise's history is important for several reasons and can have importance to many parties.

For starters, there are the fans. A certain team's fans have come under scrutiny for not caring about where their team came from, but yet they do the whiteout and celebrate the best players that came along with their team. Telling them that their history is no longer theirs is not just silly in general, but kinda invalidating. Almost as if I gave up a child (probably gonna get roasted here) to someone who could take better care of it, let that person/people provide care for 15 years, and then attempt to take your child back when you're better able to provide care.

After the fans, there's the media. The media cares way too much about statistics, but mainly because there is a call for it from all other parties. People gobble up milestones and the like, but that's besides the point. Franchises have histories, even if they move. There are records for many franchises that are created in one city and continued in another, or created in one city and then surpassed in another. Things like all-time records are important because they speak to everything having to do with the team, and even though may happen in one place with someone who played somewhere else, it provides a great insight as to how a franchise has been run when relocated elsewhere.

Lastly, and this will probably get me roasted too, there are the players. To take a team's history from one city only might mean splitting up their statistics, and lessening them greatly. If someone has a franchise record currently, and then they have their numbers taken from before a move, they might no longer hold that record. It might seem trivial, but it also serves to invalidate their hard work for what, needy people who want to recapture the past long gone?

There's a whole addition of what happens to the Thrashers history, which seemingly would just get erased from all memory, something that would serve to alienate the fans, media, and players who were affiliated with the Thrashers organization while they were in Atlanta all in one fell swoop.

Sure, they could just ignore all this and possibly shrug it off as minutia, but it would only serve to many as a further stamp on the NHL's Mickey Mouse status amongst the pro leagues of the world because even though the fans of the new team may not care about any of it, there will be plenty of people that will.

(for the record, I disagree with the way the Cleveland Browns handled their history retention, and am not a fan of the idea of that becoming any sort of precedent)

EDIT: made a contradiction in last sentence.

You can still call the franchise the Winnipeg Jets and have it exist as a franchise distinct from the original Winnipeg Jets/Phoenix Coyotes organization. The records that the Atlanta Thrashers/Winnipeg Jets II will be a separate entity. But that doesn't mean the new franchise can't honour the civic history that came with the original Jets by retiring old numbers and whatnot.

 

[Huffer]

i like this one a lot.

Ditto.

 

[Richer's Ghost]

As someone who has worked for various pro sports teams (alas, as a ***** intern), I have worked with statistics in all sorts of ways. A franchise's history is important for several reasons and can have importance to many parties.

For starters, there are the fans. A certain team's fans have come under scrutiny for not caring about where their team came from, but yet they do the whiteout and celebrate the best players that came along with their team. Telling them that their history is no longer theirs is not just silly in general, but kinda invalidating. Almost as if I gave up a child (probably gonna get roasted here) to someone who could take better care of it, let that person/people provide care for 15 years, and then attempt to take your child back when you're better able to provide care.

After the fans, there's the media. The media cares way too much about statistics, but mainly because there is a call for it from all other parties. People gobble up milestones and the like, but that's besides the point. Franchises have histories, even if they move. There are records for many franchises that are created in one city and continued in another, or created in one city and then surpassed in another. Things like all-time records are important because they speak to everything having to do with the team, and even though may happen in one place with someone who played somewhere else, it provides a great insight as to how a franchise has been run when relocated elsewhere.

Lastly, and this will probably get me roasted too, there are the players. To take a team's history from one city only might mean splitting up their statistics, and lessening them greatly. If someone has a franchise record currently, and then they have their numbers taken from before a move, they might no longer hold that record. It might seem trivial, but it also serves to invalidate their hard work for what, needy people who want to recapture the past long gone?

There's a whole addition of what happens to the Thrashers history, which seemingly would just get erased from all memory, something that would serve to alienate the fans, media, and players who were affiliated with the Thrashers organization while they were in Atlanta all in one fell swoop.

Sure, they could just ignore all this and possibly shrug it off as minutia, but it would only serve to many as a further stamp on the NHL's Mickey Mouse status amongst the pro leagues of the world because even though the fans of the new team may not care about any of it, there will be plenty of people that will.

(for the record, I disagree with the way the Cleveland Browns handled their history retention, and am not a fan of the idea of that becoming any sort of precedent)

EDIT: made a contradiction in last sentence.

I'm one of the people who thinks they can't be the Jets again because the reasons you are citing. Is Ilya Kovalchuk going to hold the records that were once Hawerchuk's and Selanne's? Doesn't make sense and it discounts the accomplishments of the people who actually deserve the recognition.

They got a team back, I'd be happy and leave it at that. The Jets are in Arizona now.

 

[Stephen]

I'm one of the people who thinks they can't be the Jets again because the reasons you are citing. Is Ilya Kovalchuk going to hold the records that were once Hawerchuk's and Selanne's? Doesn't make sense and it discounts the accomplishments of the people who actually deserve the recognition.

They got a team back, I'd be happy and leave it at that. The Jets are in Arizona now.

They'd be called the Jets, but they wouldn't be that franchise. Ostensibly, the records are from Atlanta, but the new franchise can still celebrate the civic history of the original Jets. So while they can honour or even retire Hawerchuk's jersey, they are the Thrashers/Jets organization. Kind of like how the modern Ottawa Senators are a different team from the original Senators, but celebrate the original cup wins and have a number retired...

 

[HabsByTheBay]

Does the Notre Dame Fighting Irish bother you at all? It perpetuating a racial stereotype and all? It's amazing that this never comes up when people cry about the Blackhawks or the Braves. The anti-white sentiment in modern society is unreal.

Dear God, that's an absurd statement. Not to get too political but what the Irish went through was a freakin' field day compared to what Native Americans/Indians/First Nations/Whatever you want to call them went through when the white man stepped into town.

For the people who (still) rule the world, white men can be really thin-skinned.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

By the way, the Puckdrawn.Com Winnipeg Concept contest has closed. Winner yet to be determined. There were 48 submissions total, here's a link to the gallery.

http://www.puckdrawn.com/photos/winnipeg_contest/

Ha. The Moose submission with the logo that resembles the old Jets logo should be a hit here.

Sacrilegious I know, but I actually liked the Nanook among the best.

 

[likewall32]

You can still call the franchise the Winnipeg Jets and have it exist as a franchise distinct from the original Winnipeg Jets/Phoenix Coyotes organization. The records that the Atlanta Thrashers/Winnipeg Jets II will be a separate entity. But that doesn't mean the new franchise can't honour the civic history that came with the original Jets by retiring old numbers and whatnot.

If the goal is to celebrate civic history, why can't that happen if the Thrashers are renamed the Manitoba Frostbite? The fans that were around in the "golden days" will know the numbers hanging from the rafters even if the team that plays under them is called something else.

As shown all throughout sports, teams can raise whatever commemorative banners they want, and post whatever memorials they wish in their rings of honor. If Winnipeg wants to remember their great Jets of the past, they don't need Jets of the present to do so.

 

[Guardian17]

Check out these 'jets' concept logo...love em'

http://www.winnipegjets.info/2011/06/its-game-7-andholy-sht-these-are-great.html

I love the red one!

 

[PhillyWings]

take this for what it is worth

from dreger


Unveiling the team name could take place shortly after Tuesday's meeting, however because of the uncertainty of the logo and sweater design, Winnipeg will use a generic NHL sweater when making its first selection, 7th overall at the Entry Draft.

 

[VanIslander]

This one looks pretty good:

But my fav logo so far is:

 

[dkehler]

But my fav logo so far is:

Well, but this is a minor modification of the Fresno Falcons logo.