Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[GumbyCan2]

I almost gave your post a “like” until the last word. Again, someone thinks an unproven prospect with an unspectacular AHL resume is going to step right in for the Jets. I really doubt that moving Dillon and adding Samberg will be an improvement any time soon (although I did agree with the praise heaped upon Stanley and DeMelo).

For progress you need to attempt change, when someone or pairing is not working out favourably.
How will we know what Samberg can/ will bring if never given a true trial. The point of moving Dillon before T.D. would be to make the room for a true Samberg trial and free up some cap space for other nee. I am totally on-board with this, IF Dillon and Pionk are still struggling, and Dillon is showing stagnant.

 

[GumbyCan2]

how many D are you guys carrying right now? the website says 10 but i'm guessing that's not accurate

You are likely reading the preseason last couple games chart, whereby Samberg and Heinola were still listed as Jets roster (even though Samberg was injured).
They are both in the mjnors AHL Moose.
I believe it is 7 now. Not sure who was/is #8?
Update: I believe Dillon Samberg is the #8 as he sustained a Season Opening longer-term injury, thus he is still listed on Jets roster.
= Morrissey, Pionk, Stanley, Demelo, Schmidt, Dillon and Beaulieu. Plus D Samberg on 'season-opening-injury status'.

 

[scelaton]

Very complimentary article in the WFP about Pionk, described by his coach as an "exceptional all-around defenceman". Here is an excerpt:

"Pionk...was still relatively unknown (on his arrival to Wpg), having just come off his first full NHL season at 23 years old, registering six goals and 20 points — 13 of which came on the power play — in 73 games. He was also a minus-16, the worst plus-minus of the entire Rangers defensive group.

For many fans, it didn't feel like a proper payoff when compared to Trouba, even with the additional first-rounder — a pick that ultimately led to the selection of talented defensive prospect Ville Heinola."

Pionk's size will continue to be a challenge in the NHL, but there is not much question that he continues to improve as a defenseman at age 26, while being top-tier offensively. He sits tied for 11th in points for defencemen, while sitting at 68th in TOI/GP.
Trouba's offensive days seem to be behind him, with 3 points this season and approximately the same total points in his (parts of) 3 seasons with the Rags as Pionk had in his first full season with he Jets.

When Pionk was Heinola's age he was still in the NCAA, years away from establishing himself in the NHL.
Of the 3 of them Ville he has the most growth potential, followed by Pionk, while Trouba has the least.

Pionk adds to offence, but puts defence first

 

[surixon]

Very complimentary article in the WFP about Pionk, described by his coach as an "exceptional all-around defenceman". Here is an excerpt:

Pionk...was still relatively unknown (on his arrival to Wpg), having just come off his first full NHL season at 23 years old, registering six goals and 20 points — 13 of which came on the power play — in 73 games. He was also a minus-16, the worst plus-minus of the entire Rangers defensive group.

For many fans, it didn't feel like a proper payoff when compared to Trouba, even with the additional first-rounder — a pick that ultimately led to the selection of talented defensive prospect Ville Heinola.

Pionk's size will continue to be a challenge in the NHL, but there is not much question that he continues to improve as a defenseman at age 26, while being top-tier offensively. He sits tied for 11th in points for defencemen, while sitting at 68th in TOI/GP.
Trouba's offensive days seem to be behind him, with 3 points this season and approximately the same total points in his (parts of) 3 seasons with the Rags as Pionk had in his first full season with he Jets.

When Pionk was Heinola's age he was still in the NCAA, years away from establishing himself in the NHL.
Of the 3 of them Ville he has the most growth potential, followed by Pionk, while Trouba has the least.

Pionk adds to offence, but puts defence first

Yeah we made out really well in that trade.

 

[surixon]

As for our defense this year the early signs are very positive:

I'm not as bullish on the advanced metrics like XGF% as I was in the past but our metrics are still very positive there:

Morrissey CF% 53.27, XGF% 54.96
Schmidt CF% 52.53, XGF% 53.05
Pionk CF% 54.08, XGF% 49.01
Dillion CF% 52.71, XGF% 47.89
Stanley CF% 52.5, XGF% 53.96
DeMelo CF% 51.98, XGF% 50.72

So it seems our dcore has gone from bleeding shots and chances against to controlling shots and chances against (other then the second pairing). So that is a massive change fro. Last year and should hopefully translate into more wins.

JoMo with a massive bounce back to pre 2020 levels is really driving that top pairing and this defense.

Our third pairing is also achieving very strong results.

The second pairing looks to be trending back towards sawing off the scoring chance battle.

 

[Adam da bomb]

As for our defense this year the early signs are very positive:

I'm not as bullish on the advanced metrics like XGF% as I was in the past but our metrics are still very positive there:

Morrissey CF% 53.27, XGF% 54.96
Schmidt CF% 52.53, XGF% 53.05
Pionk CF% 54.08, XGF% 49.01
Dillion CF% 52.71, XGF% 47.89
Stanley CF% 52.5, XGF% 53.96
DeMelo CF% 51.98, XGF% 50.72

So it seems our dcore has gone from bleeding shots and chances against to controlling shots and chances against (other then the second pairing). So that is a massive change fro. Last year and should hopefully translate into more wins.

JoMo with a massive bounce back to pre 2020 levels is really driving that top pairing and this defense.

Our third pairing is also achieving very strong results.

The second pairing looks to be trending back towards sawing off the scoring chance battle.

That’s interesting that our third pair is doing well as ppl are still calling for Stanley to be replaced by Heinola.

 

[WolfgangPuck]

Past two season I don’t think I seen a D to D pass behind the our goal
I seeing it more often this season
I feeling that D Corp is trusting their D partner and using them more effectively
Just felt that when our D was bad the D options were either carry the puck north out of the zone or pass puck to the forward rather than use the other defensiveman as addition outlet

 

[Gil Fisher]

That’s interesting that our third pair is doing well as ppl are still calling for Stanley to be replaced by Heinola.

I think a lot of people think Heinola has some serious upside. He was the second best defenseman at last year's WJHC behind Bowen Byram and understandably there's some eagerness to see him in action. We have 5 D (Morrissey, Schmitd, Pionk, Dillon, Demelo) signed for at least 3 years and then we have Stanley. Something has to give before next year. We can't keep Heinola in the minors another year. That is a waste of an asset and will not go over well with the player and his representatives. Plus there is a lot of potential behind Heinola as well in Samberg, Kovacevic, Chisholm, Lundmark, Gawanke. But again, we have 6 D currently that aren't going anywhere. It should be interesting to see if anything plays out in the summer. If I were Ville, I'd be quietly talking to management about a trade if they don't have plans to open up a spot for him next year.

 

[Gil Fisher]

Past two season I don’t think I seen a D to D pass behind the our goal
I seeing it more often this season
I feeling that D Corp is trusting their D partner and using them more effectively
Just felt that when our D was bad the D options were either carry the puck north out of the zone or pass puck to the forward rather than use the other defensiveman as addition outlet

Well I saw lots of D to D passes behind the net last year. And it was ugly!

 

[Adam da bomb]

I think a lot of people think Heinola has some serious upside. He was the second best defenseman at last year's WJHC behind Bowen Byram and understandably there's some eagerness to see him in action. We have 5 D (Morrissey, Schmitd, Pionk, Dillon, Demelo) signed for at least 3 years and then we have Stanley. Something has to give before next year. We can't keep Heinola in the minors another year. That is a waste of an asset and will not go over well with the player and his representatives. Plus there is a lot of potential behind Heinola as well in Samberg, Kovacevic, Chisholm, Lundmark, Gawanke. But again, we have 6 D currently that aren't going anywhere. It should be interesting to see if anything plays out in the summer. If I were Ville, I'd be quietly talking to management about a trade if they don't have plans to open up a spot for him next year.

I'd probably move Dillion in off season, use the money to keep Copp, and use Heinola or Stanley in the spot but many people on here disagree with me which is great love differences in opinion.

 

[DRW204]

Heinola is arguably already to good for the AHL. He needs to be be in the nhl sooner rather than later.

If it comes between trading or ld prospects I'd move samberg ahead of him 10/10

I think a lot of people think Heinola has some serious upside. He was the second best defenseman at last year's WJHC behind Bowen Byram and understandably there's some eagerness to see him in action. We have 5 D (Morrissey, Schmitd, Pionk, Dillon, Demelo) signed for at least 3 years and then we have Stanley. Something has to give before next year. We can't keep Heinola in the minors another year. That is a waste of an asset and will not go over well with the player and his representatives. Plus there is a lot of potential behind Heinola as well in Samberg, Kovacevic, Chisholm, Lundmark, Gawanke. But again, we have 6 D currently that aren't going anywhere. It should be interesting to see if anything plays out in the summer. If I were Ville, I'd be quietly talking to management about a trade if they don't have plans to open up a spot for him next year.

 

[Gil Fisher]

Heinola is arguably already to good for the AHL. He needs to be be in the nhl sooner rather than later.

If it comes between trading or ld prospects I'd move samberg ahead of him 10/10

Sure but that doesn't open up a spot for him.

 

[LowLefty]

Heinola is arguably already to good for the AHL. He needs to be be in the nhl sooner rather than later.

If it comes between trading or ld prospects I'd move samberg ahead of him 10/10

I'd like to see Samberg play an NHL game before making that call -
Ville seems very comfortable in the A - not so much in the NHL

 

[DRW204]

Sure but that doesn't open up a spot for him.

Don't disagree. I've said for a while the top4ld spots are locked down for a few years. Stanley has the inside edge on 3ld so leaves heinola and samberg on the outside looking in

 

[KingBogo]

I don’t think the Jets will be rushing out any of their every day veteran defenceman any time soon. We have finally stabilized our defence and have long term stability. Heinola and Samberg will have to bide their time in the A and both likely get some games with injuries. Having good young defenceman on ELCs that can go back and forth for injury replacements without waivers is ideal for a team looking to contend.

 

[surixon]

I don’t think the Jets will be rushing out any of their every day veteran defenceman any time soon. We have finally stabilized our defence and have long term stability. Heinola and Samberg will have to bide their time in the A and both likely get some games with injuries. Having good young defenceman on ELCs that can go back and forth for injury replacements without waivers is ideal for a team looking to contend.

Jets may have no choice but to move one out due to the cap next summer. If they feel Stanley can fulfill Dillion's role then I could see this next season:

JoMo Schmidt
Stanley Pionk
Heinola DeMelo

 

[KingBogo]

Jets may have no choice but to move one out due to the cap next summer. If they feel Stanley can fulfill Dillion's role then I could see this next season:

JoMo Schmidt
Stanley Pionk
Heinola DeMelo

I don’t see it myself. Maybe the year after if Dillion of DeMelo starts fading. But I also don’t see Copp staying so I don’t foresee the same cap crunch problem.

 

[surixon]

I don’t see it myself. Maybe the year after if Dillion of DeMelo starts fading. But I also don’t see Copp staying so I don’t foresee the same cap crunch problem.

I think they do everything they can to bring back Andrew but that is just me.

 

[KingBogo]

I think they do everything they can to bring back Andrew but that is just me.

I don’t think it will happen at what I think Copp will want and what he can get as a UFA.

 

[Flair Hay]

That’s interesting that our third pair is doing well as ppl are still calling for Stanley to be replaced by Heinola.

I havent seen this, but it doesnt surprise me either

 

[DRW204]

it'll be interesting to see what happens when healthy. dillon likely comes back to his spot at 2ld. i thought samberg had a fine 1st game, 2nd game thought he was average, didn't really catch my eye. only played 11mins.

stanley-schmidt has not been a great pairing, but i think morrissey-demelo has been good. i still think i prefer morrissey-schmidt though, and then obviously demelo w/ stanley. dillon-pionk i think has been alright overall? started out slow, been playing better but id rate them as an average 2nd pair (this was my pairing that i was looking forward to the most in the pre-season).

id like to see samberg get more nhl reps though, and obviously heinola at some point. dillon i think has been ok in his role, but for nearly 4m i think you just expect more. if samberg can show some competency in a 2nd pair role by end of the year, or is at least is basically more or less the same effectiveness as dillon, moving dillon in the off-season and having samberg full-time saves 3m. but samberg will need to play in order for us to see what we have in him.

there's going to be a log-jam at LD. you have morrissey at 6m+ long-term, dillon at 3.9M for a few years.... then you have stanley, heinola, samberg & chisholm. think it'd behoove the team to package one of the young LDs for a top-9 fwd in the off-season with Copp and Stastny possibly moving.

 

[Gm0ney]

Just for reference, here's a snapshot of the Age of Huddy in Winnipeg so far.

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]

xGA/60 Rank
(5v5 | PK)​

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

Defense (in order of TOI/GP with at least 500* minutes TOI*)​

[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2011-12[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

23 | 28​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Enstrom, Hainsey, Bogo, Oduya, Stuart[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2012-13[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

25 | 14​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Bogo, Hainsey, Clitsome, Stuart, Postma[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2013-14[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

19 |20​

[/TD]
[TD]Bogo, Enstrom, Buff**, Trouba, Clitsome, Stuart[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2014-15[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

19 | 22​

[/TD]
[TD]Bogo***, Enstrom, Trouba, Buff**, Chiarot, Stuart[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2015-16[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

16 | 28​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Trouba, Enstrom, Myers, Chiarot, Stuart[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2016-17[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

14 | 19​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Trouba, Morrissey, Enstrom, Chiarot, Postma[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2017-18[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

4 | 29​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Trouba, Morrissey, Myers, Enstrom, Kulikov[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2018-19[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

22 | 24​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Trouba, Morrissey, Chiarot, Myers, Kulikov[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2019-20[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

29 | 27​

[/TD]
[TD]Morrissey, Pionk, Kulikov, Poolman, Sbisa, Beaulieu[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2020-21[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

27 | 28​

[/TD]
[TD]Morrissey, Pionk, Forbert, Poolman, DeMelo, Stanley[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2021-22[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

28 | 22​

[/TD]
[TD]Morrissey, Schmidt, Pionk, Dillon, DeMelo, Stanley[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Average[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

21 | 24​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
* TOI threshold lowered for 2012-13 (lockout) and 2021-22 (only 36 GP so far)
** 2013-14 and 2014-15 Buff played on the wing for a significant number of games.
*** Bogo traded in February 2015

The 2015-2018 seasons were really the Jets' defensive zenith...and it was really only one good year. Since losing to Vegas in the WCF, this team has been wallowing in the Bottom 10 defensively (prior to that one good year, they were mostly wallowing in the bottom half defensively). The team's been consistently bad defensively at 5v5 and on the PK through 2 different head coaches (now 3), and significant roster changes. The PK has only cracked the top half of the league in xGA/60 once in 11 seasons! And at 5v5 they've had one good year.

How does Huddy still have a job here?

 

[surixon]

Just for reference, here's a snapshot of the Age of Huddy in Winnipeg so far.

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]

xGA/60 Rank
(5v5 | PK)​

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

Defense (in order of TOI/GP with at least 500* minutes TOI*)​

[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2011-12[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

23 | 28​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Enstrom, Hainsey, Bogo, Oduya, Stuart[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2012-13[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

25 | 14​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Bogo, Hainsey, Clitsome, Stuart, Postma[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2013-14[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

19 |20​

[/TD]
[TD]Bogo, Enstrom, Buff**, Trouba, Clitsome, Stuart[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2014-15[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

19 | 22​

[/TD]
[TD]Bogo***, Enstrom, Trouba, Buff**, Chiarot, Stuart[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2015-16[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

16 | 28​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Trouba, Enstrom, Myers, Chiarot, Stuart[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2016-17[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

14 | 19​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Trouba, Morrissey, Enstrom, Chiarot, Postma[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2017-18[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

4 | 29​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Trouba, Morrissey, Myers, Enstrom, Kulikov[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2018-19[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

22 | 24​

[/TD]
[TD]Buff, Trouba, Morrissey, Chiarot, Myers, Kulikov[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2019-20[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

29 | 27​

[/TD]
[TD]Morrissey, Pionk, Kulikov, Poolman, Sbisa, Beaulieu[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2020-21[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

27 | 28​

[/TD]
[TD]Morrissey, Pionk, Forbert, Poolman, DeMelo, Stanley[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2021-22[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

28 | 22​

[/TD]
[TD]Morrissey, Schmidt, Pionk, Dillon, DeMelo, Stanley[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Average[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

21 | 24​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
* TOI threshold lowered for 2012-13 (lockout) and 2021-22 (only 36 GP so far)
** 2013-14 and 2014-15 Buff played on the wing for a significant number of games.
*** Bogo traded in February 2015

The 2015-2018 seasons were really the Jets' defensive zenith...and it was really only one good year. Since losing to Vegas in the WCF, this team has been wallowing in the Bottom 10 defensively (prior to that one good year, they were mostly wallowing in the bottom half defensively). The team's been consistently bad defensively at 5v5 and on the PK through 2 different head coaches (now 3), and significant roster changes. The PK has only cracked the top half of the league in xGA/60 once in 11 seasons! And at 5v5 they've had one good year.

How does Huddy still have a job here?

Yeah Huddy should be gone. Let Lowey or whoever is coaching next year bring in all their own assistants.

 

[DRW204]

 

[Ducky10]

Who knew having skill actually mattered......?

Again begs the question, where the F has Heinola been?