Speculation: Wings spare parts at the deadline (Actually, the tank thread)

[norrisnick]

We been in rebuild mode for 6 years already, it supposed to take 8-10 years, our highest pick was #4 just ones and we got lucky with Seider, but not really lucky with 2-7 rounds , not getting any 13 or 40. Just be patient for another 2 seasons at least

Datsyuk was 23 years-old when he first came over. And Zetterberg 22.

Same age Zadina and Berggren are now.

We have no idea yet if some late rounders from '20, '21, '22 will blow our socks off in a few years.

 

[norrisnick]

I think you're going to be disappointed.

The thing with the team is, the roster has been absolutely savaged by injuries and the Vrana situation. Yzerman could well decide to hold serve, have Berggren on the roster full-time next year, promote Edvinsson, bring over Kasper and Wallinder (who are currently 3 and 1 in U21 scoring in the SHL, respectively), and hope to snag one or two decent free agents to shore up the roster. I would rather resign Bertuzzi than trade him for a second. His injury history will tank his trade value.

The injuries throughout our roster and the loss of Vrana tanked the team's offense, and no one except Larkin has any trade value as a result. I would rather jettison Suter and Zadina, hold on to the roster, bring over Kaspar to help fill in our center weakness, bring over Wallinder for the third pair, and hope to sign one or more of O'Reilly, Tarasenko, Pastrnak, Dumba, Gostisbehere, Severson to fill out the roster and push out some of the remaining AHL garbage.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Yzerman stand pat and keep the entire roster for next year. I think he is at the stage where is looking at making small changes every summer and iteratively improving the team.

If Pasta hits the open market Yzerman better be ready to slap his dick on the table on day one with a huge offer. I don't want him even calling any of the others, except maybe Severson if he's willing to come cheap for the 3rd pairing.

 

[Oddbob]

If Pasta hits the open market Yzerman better be ready to slap his dick on the table on day one with a huge offer. I don't want him even calling any of the others, except maybe Severson if he's willing to come cheap for the 3rd pairing.

No thanks to Severson. He is really not that good a defender. Not physical, doesn't put up a lot of pts and gets paid way too much.

 

[norrisnick]

No thanks to Severson. He is really not that good a defender. Not physical, doesn't put up a lot of pts and gets paid way too much.

Like I said, if he comes priced for the 3rd pairing, I'd prefer him over Lindstrom or Oesterle.

 

[lilidk]

Datsyuk was 23 years-old when he first came over. And Zetterberg 22.

Same age Zadina and Berggren are now.

We have no idea yet if some late rounders from '20, '21, '22 will blow our socks off in a few years.

Both was 1 year younger, anyway Bergreen has similar numbers to Zetterberg and Datsyuk on their first year, don't forget that both Z and D were 6-7 rounds

 

[norrisnick]

Both was 1 year younger, anyway Bergreen has similar numbers to Zetterberg and Datsyuk on their first year, don't forget that both Z and D were 6-7 rounds

Datsyuk was born July 20th 1998. He turned 23 July 21st 2001. His first season was 2001-2002.

Zetterberg was born October 9th 2000. He turned 22, October 9th 2002 (1 day before his 1st NHL game). His first season was 2002-2003.

I'm not forgetting anything. I know how the passage of time works and when players were drafted. And there are ways of looking that up if I'm unsure. I wasn't referencing Zadina and Berggren on their draft position. Just on their current ages relative to D and Z coming over.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I wouldn't trade Hronek straight up for Chych right now, and that trade would have been a huge win if Holland went size queen and picked Tage instead of Cholo. (Tage being a complete hindsight call, admittedly).

Stevie is on record as saying he looked to trade down but didn't get any reasonable offers. From what he said it was 6th or 35th, and Seider wasn't gonna be there at 35th (every ranking had him well above that).

Red Wings’ Steve Yzerman: Fans will be ‘pleasantly surprised’ by Moritz Seider

Detroit GM selected German defenseman higher than most thought he would go.

www.mlive.com

Terrible examples bud.

You just proved my point? Arizona's "FOMO" landed them a really good player. Yzerman's "FOMO" ensured we got a #1D. Again, prospects are not directly equivalent to the infinite opportunities to get drunk with your friends or make a solid gain in the bitcoin market - there's actual scouting involved, there's actual team-building factors to consider. Without Cossa our future in net would be bleak as hell. Even with Cossa having some struggles, he's still a more valuable piece for our rebuild than having another #2-3C type prospect.

 

[SantosHalper]

I think you're going to be disappointed.

The thing with the team is, the roster has been absolutely savaged by injuries and the Vrana situation. Yzerman could well decide to hold serve, have Berggren on the roster full-time next year, promote Edvinsson, bring over Kasper and Wallinder (who are currently 3 and 1 in U21 scoring in the SHL, respectively), and hope to snag one or two decent free agents to shore up the roster. I would rather resign Bertuzzi than trade him for a second. His injury history will tank his trade value.

The injuries throughout our roster and the loss of Vrana tanked the team's offense, and no one except Larkin has any trade value as a result. I would rather jettison Suter and Zadina, hold on to the roster, bring over Kaspar to help fill in our center weakness, bring over Wallinder for the third pair, and hope to sign one or more of O'Reilly, Tarasenko, Pastrnak, Dumba, Gostisbehere, Severson to fill out the roster and push out some of the remaining AHL garbage.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Yzerman stand pat and keep the entire roster for next year. I think he is at the stage where is looking at making small changes every summer and iteratively improving the team.

I'm having same thoughs. I could see Vrana, Kubalik, Suter, Zadina, Ned, Erne and Oesterle being on the chopping block but that's about it. Wallinder goes to GR next year to replace Edvinsson and i don't expect much changes in the summer either, injuries, personnal problems, sophomore slumps and Ned completely falling from the wagon ruined this season. With better luck Red Wings would still be in the wild card spot hunt. Red Wings rebuild is in the phase that now they are waiting for the kids to develop, and step up and lead the team. And of course collect more assets from the upcoming draft, 8 picks so far but i would expect to rise around 10-11 after the TDL.

2023-24 Red Wings
Bert - Larkin - Ray
Ras - Copp - Berg
Fabbri - Kasper - Perron
Söderblom - Veleno - Sundqvist
?/Zadina

Walman - Seider
Edvinsson - Hronek
Chiarot - Määttä
?/Oesterle - Lindström

Husso
?/Hellberg

Either everything clicks and Red Wings reach the playoffs or they fail miserable and it's another high pick. No need for scorched earth tactic anymore.

 

[Oddbob]

I'm having same thoughs. I could see Vrana, Kubalik, Suter, Zadina, Ned, Erne and Oesterle being on the chopping block but that's about it. Wallinder goes to GR next year to replace Edvinsson and i don't expect much changes in the summer either, injuries, personnal problems, sophomore slumps and Ned completely falling from the wagon ruined this season. With better luck Red Wings would still be in the wild card spot hunt. Red Wings rebuild is in the phase that now they are waiting for the kids to develop, and step up and lead the team. And of course collect more assets from the upcoming draft, 8 picks so far but i would expect to rise around 10-11 after the TDL.

2023-24 Red Wings
Bert - Larkin - Ray
Ras - Copp - Berg
Fabbri - Kasper - Perron
Söderblom - Veleno - Sundqvist
?/Zadina

Walman - Seider
Edvinsson - Hronek
Chiarot - Määttä
?/Oesterle - Lindström

Husso
?/Hellberg

Either everything clicks and Red Wings reach the playoffs or they fail miserable and it's another high pick. No need for scorched earth tactic anymore.

I think Lindstrom is gone after the season, as I can't see him getting another contract for Detroit. Maata is likely gone at the deadline and re-ups with whoever trades for him. Lots of playoff teams should want him, although I don't have a problem with him coming back on 2-3 year modest money deal. Bert very likely done here whether we trade him or not, can't see Yzerman offering him a long deal with yet another season of injuries and Bert won't want a 1-3 year deal. I think Sundqvist is definitely gone at the deadline as he fits perfectly in playoff hockey on a 3rd or 4th line. Have to think Oesterle isn't back either, as he was a low end stop gap, and I want to believe whether its a rookie or Steve adding someone better as 6/7th D via UFA.

I have a feeling Zadina will be an offseason trade. We need to do better than Hellberg as backup next season, he is a below average backup in the Copley, Spencer Martin mold. .895 is not a good save percentage even with the higher scoring the past few years.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Datsyuk was 23 years-old when he first came over. And Zetterberg 22.

Same age Zadina and Berggren are now.

We have no idea yet if some late rounders from '20, '21, '22 will blow our socks off in a few years.

Zetterberg was carrying an SHL team at 20 and 21 and was generally ranked one of the top prospects in the world from that age. He also played for the Swedish Olympic and WC teams in 2001 and 2002.

I don't think he's the best comparable for Zadina.

How about...

1996 6th overall pick Floyd Devereaux? Bad draft year, 6th overall, the skills he was drafted for (Devereaux for skating, Zadina for shot) were not as elite as they were advertised to be, both lack hockey sense and are projecting to be mediocre to bad bottom 6ers.

 

[norrisnick]

Zetterberg was carrying an SHL team at 20 and 21 and was generally ranked one of the top prospects in the world from that age. He also played for the Swedish Olympic and WC teams in 2001 and 2002.

I don't think he's the best comparable for Zadina.

How about...

1996 6th overall pick Floyd Devereaux? Bad draft year, 6th overall, the skills he was drafted for (Devereaux for skating, Zadina for shot) were not as elite as they were advertised to be, both lack hockey sense and are projecting to be mediocre to bad bottom 6ers.

Read the post and try again.

And not just "Zadina? Random tangent that has nothing to do with the post quoted"

Datsyuk and Zetterberg's draft years and the point at which they made their appearance on the roster, let alone major impact, were years apart. That's why it's silly to look at he last couple drafts and declare here and now that there is nothing of substance in the later rounds. That's the point of pointing out Zadina and Berggren's ages. They were drafted in '18, we still don't have a clear answer on what they are moving forward. Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't really Datsyuk and Zetterberg until the '05-'06 season. A full 7 and 6 years after they were drafted.

 

[Frk It]

Datsyuk was 23 years-old when he first came over. And Zetterberg 22.

Same age Zadina and Berggren are now.

We have no idea yet if some late rounders from '20, '21, '22 will blow our socks off in a few years.

This is why I don't put too much stock into people pointing out this current team is good enough, or estimating that the re-build will fall short.

Half of our top 10 picks from the last 4 years aren't even on the team yet (Edvinsson/Kasper). Raymond and Seider aren't in their primes yet. We don't know how the rest of the development for Wallinder, Mazur, Lombardi, Buchelnikov, etc will go. We have future trade deadlines and UFA periods to navigate still.

I think this team can/will look drastically different in 3 years time, and we have don't have a way of knowing if that team will be good enough or not. Obviously it is an uphill battle and I think we are re-building in the toughest landscape there has been. But there are a lot of unknowns still.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Read the post and try again.

And not just "Zadina? Random tangent that has nothing to do with the post quoted"

Datsyuk and Zetterberg's draft years and the point at which they made their appearance on the roster, let alone major impact, were years apart. That's why it's silly to look at he last couple drafts and declare here and now that there is nothing of substance in the later rounds. That's the point of pointing out Zadina and Berggren's ages. They were drafted in '18, we still don't have a clear answer on what they are moving forward. Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't really Datsyuk and Zetterberg until the '05-'06 season. A full 8 and 7 years after they were drafted.

It's early AF in Alaska and I haven't finished my coffee yet so all you're getting is a random tangent.

But saying that Bustina and Jonny Burgers are the same age as Zetterberg and Datsyuk were when they came over doesn't really mean much. They were excellent players and you could see that they would be special from the moment they put on the red and white.

Berggren has given glimpses of becoming a really good top 6 or even top line winger. Zadina hasn't had those flashes of brilliance where you say, "That looks like a 30+ goal guy". For anyone that watched Berggren when he got healthy you could see he was clearly a better prospect and player than Zadina as far back as 20-21.

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

This is why I don't put too much stock into people pointing out this current team is good enough, or estimating that the re-build will fall short.

Half of our top 10 picks from the last 4 years aren't even on the team yet (Edvinsson/Kasper). Raymond and Seider aren't in their primes yet. We don't know how the rest of the development for Wallinder, Mazur, Lombardi, Buchelnikov, etc will go. We have future trade deadlines and UFA periods to navigate still.

I think this team can/will look drastically different in 3 years time, and we have don't have a way of knowing if that team will be good enough or not. Obviously it is an uphill battle and I think we are re-building in the toughest landscape there has been. But there are a lot of unknowns still.

To further your point, Your 20-21 Detroit Red Wings. 23 bolded names are not on the team now.

17 Filip Hronek
71 Dylan Larkin
39 Anthony Mantha
73 Adam Erne
11 Filip Zadina
14 Robby Fabbri
92 Vladislav Namestnikov
89 Sam Gagner
51 Valtteri Filppula
41 Luke Glendening
54 Bobby Ryan
65 Danny Dekeyser
27 Michael Rasmussen
15 Jakub Vrana
70 Troy Stecher
44 Christian Djoos
18 Marc Staal
37 Evgeny Svechnikov
43 Darren Helm
22 Patrik Nemeth
59 Tyler Bertuzzi
81 Frans Nielsen
24 Jon Merrill
24 Richard Panik
48 Givani Smith
21 Dennis Cholowski
3 Alex Biega
28 Gustav Lindstrom
86 Mathias Brome
67 Taro Hirose
90 Joe Veleno
31 Calvin Pickard
45 Jonathan Bernier
29 Thomas Greiss

 

[norrisnick]

It's early AF in Alaska and I haven't finished my coffee yet so all you're getting is a random tangent.

But saying that Bustina and Jonny Burgers are the same age as Zetterberg and Datsyuk were when they came over doesn't really mean much. They were excellent players and you could see that they would be special from the moment they put on the red and white.

Berggren has given glimpses of becoming a really good top 6 or even top line winger. Zadina hasn't had those flashes of brilliance where you say, "That looks like a 30+ goal guy". For anyone that watched Berggren when he got healthy you could see he was clearly a better prospect and player than Zadina as far back as 20-21.

Finish your coffee then.

The point is... Zadina and Bergie are the same age as Pavel and Z when they were rookies. And Zadina and Bergie were drafted almost 5 years ago. So looking at the last 3 drafts and declaring that there are no Pavels and Zs to be found is a bit early since we don't even know what Zadina and Bergie will end up as.

And even in their rookie years, I doubt too many people foretold Pavel and Z's run from '05-'06 season on. A lot of us where wielding pitchforks regarding Pavel's playoff disappearance act prior to the '07 WCF run.

Everyone is so f'n impatient to be able to declare definitive bust or boom on a player. No matter how many times they are just flat out wrong on the hopes that they get one right and can then prance around saying "I told you so!" Even when that I told you so is being said about a kid with 2 career points and years before that decision can even be made.

 

[SantosHalper]

I think Lindstrom is gone after the season, as I can't see him getting another contract for Detroit. Maata is likely gone at the deadline and re-ups with whoever trades for him. Lots of playoff teams should want him, although I don't have a problem with him coming back on 2-3 year modest money deal. Bert very likely done here whether we trade him or not, can't see Yzerman offering him a long deal with yet another season of injuries and Bert won't want a 1-3 year deal. I think Sundqvist is definitely gone at the deadline as he fits perfectly in playoff hockey on a 3rd or 4th line. Have to think Oesterle isn't back either, as he was a low end stop gap, and I want to believe whether its a rookie or Steve adding someone better as 6/7th D via UFA.

I have a feeling Zadina will be an offseason trade. We need to do better than Hellberg as backup next season, he is a below average backup in the Copley, Spencer Martin mold. .895 is not a good save percentage even with the higher scoring the past few years.

Lindström is suitable for 7th D role, i could see him getting 1-year extension. Org and coaches know him, i don't think it's necessary to get rid of him and look for someone else in that role. Trade/waive him when Johansson/Wallinder is ready.

Määttä and Sundqvist could get traded, but i think both of would be brough back with 2-year deals.

I was thinking Oesterle as a 14th forward/8t d-man utility guy, he's extension would be cheap and it doesn't bother him if he sits 10 games a row in the stands.

I think Bert has to settle for a short term deal, 3-4 year deal max.

I was thinking Copley as a backup but he re-signed, Korpisalo and Stolarz are only intresting ones left. So we might get stucked with Hellberg. Im willing to give him a chance if the experiment fails, we trade for a goalie during the next season or grab someone from waivers.

 

[norrisnick]

To further your point, Your 20-21 Detroit Red Wings. 23 bolded names are not on the team now.

17 Filip Hronek
71 Dylan Larkin
39 Anthony Mantha
73 Adam Erne
11 Filip Zadina
14 Robby Fabbri
92 Vladislav Namestnikov
89 Sam Gagner
51 Valtteri Filppula
41 Luke Glendening
54 Bobby Ryan
65 Danny Dekeyser
27 Michael Rasmussen
15 Jakub Vrana
70 Troy Stecher
44 Christian Djoos
18 Marc Staal
37 Evgeny Svechnikov
43 Darren Helm
22 Patrik Nemeth
59 Tyler Bertuzzi
81 Frans Nielsen
24 Jon Merrill
24 Richard Panik
48 Givani Smith
21 Dennis Cholowski
3 Alex Biega
28 Gustav Lindstrom
86 Mathias Brome
67 Taro Hirose
90 Joe Veleno
31 Calvin Pickard
45 Jonathan Bernier
29 Thomas Greiss

Unless you mean organization, you can bold 3 more names.

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

Unless you mean organization, you can bold 3 more names.

I kept it to organization because call ups can happen. If 23 players kicked off the team from 3 years ago doesn't show that the next 3 years can yield a completely different team... all hope is lost anyways,

 

[norrisnick]

I have a feeling Zadina will be an offseason trade. We need to do better than Hellberg as backup next season, he is a below average backup in the Copley, Spencer Martin mold. .895 is not a good save percentage even with the higher scoring the past few years.

I was briefly confused as I looked up goalie stats and saw Hellberg at a .901 for the year (which is exactly league average by the way). He had a .935 game for Ottawa this year. Expecting higher than league average SV% from your backup is not really what we can expect from our caliber team.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Finish your coffee then.

The point is... Zadina and Bergie are the same age as Pavel and Z when they were rookies. And Zadina and Bergie were drafted almost 5 years ago. So looking at the last 3 drafts and declaring that there are no Pavels and Zs to be found is a bit early since we don't even know what Zadina and Bergie will end up as.

And even in their rookie years, I doubt too many people foretold Pavel and Z's run from '05-'06 season on. A lot of us where wielding pitchforks regarding Pavel's playoff disappearance act prior to the '07 WCF run.

Everyone is so f'n impatient to be able to declare definitive bust or boom on a player. No matter how many times they are just flat out wrong on the hopes that they get one right and can then prance around saying "I told you so!" Even when that I told you so is being said about a kid with 2 career points and years before that decision can even be made.

1. Ok. Coffee chugged.

2. Yeah, it's hard to know who the Pavs and Zs are from the last 3 drafts. And looking at the last 12 years or so how many true top line steals have there been drafted from the 3rd round or later? The only 3 I can think of are Johnny Hockey, Brayden Point and Jesper Bratt. One of those guys seems to come around every 4 years or so.

3. How many people foretold that Datsyuk and Zetterberg would become the players they did? I think a lot of Wings fans did, especially after reports of Datsyuk's performance in the 2001 traverse city tournament, and from 2000 to 2002 when Zetterberg was mentioned in so many RWC and The Hockey News articles.

4. But it's so much funsies to dump on Zadina! You should try it.

 

[norrisnick]

I kept it to organization because call ups can happen. If 23 players kicked off the team from 3 years ago doesn't show that the next 3 years can yield a completely different team... all hope is lost anyways,

I hesitate to imagine a scenario where Vrana, Erne, or Hirose get called up this year. Elmer would presumably get the nod if there was a spot to be had up front.

But yes, there will be change. Hopefully less as we are trending in the right direction, but there will be significant change.

 

[GoBoltz56]

I hesitate to imagine a scenario where Vrana, Erne, or Hirose get called up this year. Elmer would presumably get the nod if there was a spot to be had up front.

But yes, there will be change. Hopefully less as we are trending in the right direction, but there will be significant change.

Never forget that Yzerman loves him some big Ern'

 

[Detroit Knights]

If Pasta hits the open market Yzerman better be ready to slap his dick on the table on day one with a huge offer. I don't want him even calling any of the others, except maybe Severson if he's willing to come cheap for the 3rd pairing.

Just don't see why Pastrnak would want to come to detroit. Obviously we all want him, but is money going to be his only factor or does he want to win? Realistically, if he were to choose Detroit, then we are still going to be building the monster team until 3-4 from now to get to the cup.

Obviously, we have depth and Pastrnak will be a very important key to formula for what we need: pure goal scorer. But we still need to solidify the defense, of which I think we are close with Maatta, seider, edvinsson (eventually), Walman. Hopefuly AlJo can get up there sooner rather than later.

 

[norrisnick]

Just don't see why Pastrnak would want to come to detroit. Obviously we all want him, but is money going to be his only factor or does he want to win? Realistically, if he were to choose Detroit, then we are still going to be building the monster team until 3-4 from now to get to the cup.

Obviously, we have depth and Pastrnak will be a very important key to formula for what we need: pure goal scorer. But we still need to solidify the defense, of which I think we are close with Maatta, seider, edvinsson (eventually), Walman. Hopefuly AlJo can get up there sooner rather than later.

If he leaves Boston, Pasta's primary motivation is not winning.

 

[Detroit Knights]

If he leaves Boston, Pasta's primary motivation is not winning.

I will say, I pray that I see Jonny Burgers setting up Pastrnak all day like Datsyuk to Hossa was.