Confirmed with Link: Wings out of the bidding for Lecavalier, according to Khan (post #743)

[bababooeyII]

Vinny is high end talent. You make room for those players. You don't screw your prospects over for washed up veterans who are above average talent on a good night.

Holland would have sent Nyquist down if Sammy didnt tear his groin picking flowers. The fact that both Tatar and Nyquist didn't play the entire season for the Wings is a joke.

Exactly right! If Jarnkrok has to wait a few years because we sign Lecavalier, so be it, if he has to wait a few years because we sign a Samuelsson type, bad signing and typical Holland acquisition. That is the difference. If the Bruins are being active on the trade front, a team that was in the Stanley Cup Finals, why isn't Holland being active?

 

[FlashyG]

If the Bruins are being active on the trade front, a team that was in the Stanley Cup Finals, why isn't Holland being active?

The Bruins picked up Wade Redden and Jaromir Jagr, neither of whom made any impact on their run to the finals. In fact both are the type of "Fossils" WingedWheel was claiming are blocking the path of kids to the NHL.

 

[bababooeyII]

The Bruins picked up Wade Redden and Jaromir Jagr, neither of whom made any impact on their run to the finals. In fact both are the type of "Fossils" WingedWheel was claiming are blocking the path of kids to the NHL.

The Bruins were in a position to make a run for the Cup, and the loss of Redden affected them in the playoffs. But my point was not at the trade deadline I am talking right now, they are going to trade Horton's rights and have Seguin on the table for trade. Holland is going through labor pains to buy out guys like Samuelsson for pete's sake.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

The Bruins picked up Wade Redden and Jaromir Jagr, neither of whom made any impact on their run to the finals. In fact both are the type of "Fossils" WingedWheel was claiming are blocking the path of kids to the NHL.

Jaromir Jagr certainly contributed to his team in the playoffs. Did you not see some of the sick plays he pulled off that led to goals for? Or are you going to cite 0 goals in the playoffs?

 

[InjuredChoker]

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun 8 min
Dallas Stars meeting with Lecavalier camp later today. Don't sleep on Dallas in this one. They're keen on him.

 

[FlashyG]

Jaromir Jagr certainly contributed to his team in the playoffs. Did you not see some of the sick plays he pulled off that led to goals for? Or are you going to cite 0 goals in the playoffs?

So much so that they couldn't wait to re-sign him after the playoffs...right?

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

I have one. When LeCavalier is on the ice, teams are controlling the puck more, getting more shots on goal than he and his linemates.

Is that so? I'm new to the advance stats but Vinny has a 0.9 Corsi rating which means when he is on the ice he averages 0.9 shots for per 60 minutes. It's not great but it puts a hole in your "he doesn't control the play" theory. Another thing to consider is that he started in the offensive zone 51.9% of the time & finished in it 52.1% of the time, seems like he can still control the play.

When LeCavalier is on the ice, opponents are averaging 3 goals every 60 minutes, or 1 goal every 20 minutes.

Wow way to not include anything else so it seems he is a total liability. His GF/ON per 60 is 3.23 & his GA/ON per 60 is 3.55 a difference of -0.32. Is he great defensively, no is he a MAB of forwards like you tried to show us, no. He is average.

To put it short, the opponent is in control of the game more than Lecavalier and his linemates are. There's a net loss when he's on the ice. He's also 33, has been injured the last several years, and his scoring is gonna go into decline.

So the only legit reason is because he is old & has been injured recently. Those are valid concerns but for a #2C that would put us back into the Legit contenders category I think we can brush them aside. Jarnkrok will not be ready for the #2C role for at least 2 years more than likely 3 years. Let's say we sign Vinny to a 3 year deal we give Jarnkrok this year in the AHL if he plays well he can come up next year playing 3rd line wing. Then he can either play 3rd line C/3rd line wing/top 6 winger in his 3rd year, then in his 4th Vinny is gone & he is the #2C

I also think it would be good for you to know that Jagr is -0.09GA/Per 60, his offensive zone start to finish is -4.6, Jagr is also older then Vinny & has also missed games in the past couple of years. Why do we want a 42 year old winger, which is where most of our top prospect play unlike center, coming to play for us?

 

[InjuredChoker]

I have one. When LeCavalier is on the ice, teams are controlling the puck more, getting more shots on goal than he and his linemates. When LeCavalier is on the ice, opponents are averaging 3 goals every 60 minutes, or 1 goal every 20 minutes. To put it short, the opponent is in control of the game more than Lecavalier and his linemates are. There's a net loss when he's on the ice. He's also 33, has been injured the last several years, and his scoring is gonna go into decline.

If you want to look at HARD rating, he's actually the worst offender among the players who played at least 500 minutes for the Lightning this year.

You should watch Vinny play a little more.

Vinny also played like half of this year with that broken leg or whatever that injury was from blocking Salo's shot.

Boucher also may not have been the best coach for him, it seems like.

If you think Jagr is better than Vinny, you should really watch them both play more.

I can see the argument for Jagr yr > Vinny 4-5 years.

Also Tampa has had almost brutal G and D more or less the past few years. That counts for a lot of GA. Vinny won't contend for Selke but he is still good player in all zones. The starts have been asked to do too much in Tampa lately, that was the problem,

 

[JmanWingsFan]

So much so that they couldn't wait to re-sign him after the playoffs...right?

A team letting a player go is not an indicator of how good he is... If anything, he's a cap casualty.

 

[bababooeyII]

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun 8 min
Dallas Stars meeting with Lecavalier camp later today. Don't sleep on Dallas in this one. They're keen on him.

I will fall asleep on them, they're not a threat to do anything and if Vinny is serious about being a piece for a contender, than Dallas is just wasting their time.

 

[FlashyG]

The Bruins were in a position to make a run for the Cup, and the loss of Redden affected them in the playoffs. But my point was not at the trade deadline I am talking right now, they are going to trade Horton's rights and have Seguin on the table for trade. Holland is going through labor pains to buy out guys like Samuelsson for pete's sake.

Holland wants to trade Flips rights, and has already said hes willing to go so far as to trade 3 for 1 to get a player he wants.

Whats the difference? the only one I see is that we don't know who's on the table for the Wings.

Besides, if the Wings announced that Nyquist was available right now, the very same people would be going ballistic that they are trading a prospect.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

You should watch Vinny play a little more.

Vinny also played like half of this year with that broken leg or whatever that injury was from blocking Salo's shot.

Boucher also may not have been the best coach for him, it seems like.

If you think Jagr is better than Vinny, you should really watch them both play more.

I can see the argument for Jagr yr > Vinny 4-5 years.

Also Tampa has had almost brutal G and D more or less the past few years. That counts for a lot of GA. Vinny won't contend for Selke but he is still good player in all zones. The starts have been asked to do too much in Tampa lately, that was the problem,

Rob Scuderi averaged about a goal every 20 minutes (Or three goals against every 60 minutes) against on the ice. And this was with Jonathan Quick in net. This is the same as Vinny when he is on the ice. And these two people hold some important defensive assignments.

And if you want to suggest the D and G has been brutal, I've gone pretty far back to see if there was a time where bad D/G wasn't affecting his play. Guess what, he's still bad. He's always been bad from what I can tell. If he was decent, it would reflect less badly. Going all the way back to 07-08, he still holds the worst HARD on his team amongst forwards playing at least 400 minutes.

At least when Jagr is on the ice, He and his linemates contribute more to the team and provide a net gain in corsi events and goals for. And as a winger rather than a center, he's not expected to play that much defense.

 

[FlashyG]

A team letting a player go is not an indicator of how good he is... If anything, he's a cap casualty.

He's definitely a cap casualty, but his effectiveness in the playoffs was minimal compared to what he was being paid and he's 41 years old.

Its close to the equivalent of bringing in Samuelsson. Both had similar numbers in their most recent season, Jagr's being a little better, but Sammy being younger and cheaper.

 

[bababooeyII]

Holland wants to trade Flips rights, and has already said hes willing to go so far as to trade 3 for 1 to get a player he wants.

Whats the difference? the only one I see is that we don't know who's on the table for the Wings.

Besides, if the Wings announced that Nyquist was available right now, the very same people would be going ballistic that they are trading a prospect.

well that's because there is quite a bit of fat they could cut before they got to a legitimate top prospect.

 

[FlashyG]

well that's because there is quite a bit of fat they could cut before they got to a legitimate top prospect.

You were just giving a pat on the back to Chiarelli for having Seguin on the trading block, Boston has quite a bit of fat they could cut before letting him go and he's a FAR FAR better player than Nyquist.

 

[SportsballChic]

Not picking a fight, but I would literally cry if we got Jagr because it means we didn't get someone good. He's a name at this point more than anything. And yeah, I didn't think he was as bad as his numbers suggested in the playoffs but that was supposedly the absolute BEST he had left; that's what he saved all his energy for?

He's done. I'm sorry, it makes me sad too.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Rob Scuderi averaged about a goal every 20 minutes (Or three goals against every 60 minutes) against on the ice. And this was with Jonathan Quick in net. This is the same as Vinny when he is on the ice. And these two people hold some important defensive assignments.

Quick wasn't that great in reg. season.

I've seen your argument with Scuderi, you should also watch him more.

And if you want to suggest the D and G has been brutal, I've gone pretty far back to see if there was a time where bad D/G wasn't affecting his play. Guess what, he's still bad. He's always been bad from what I can tell. If he was decent, it would reflect less badly. Going all the way back to 07-08, he still holds the worst HARD on his team amongst forwards playing at least 400 minutes.

Yeah and Tampa D and G sucked back then too, iirc. Tampa is more or less goalie graveyard like Philly.

It's about how he is used, I think Babcock would want him and would be able to use him to best of his ability. He would eliminate a bit of that size issue and help with scoring. Z And Dats would be able to play together.

At least when Jagr is on the ice, He and his linemates contribute more to the team and provide a net gain in corsi events and goals for. And as a winger rather than a center, he's not expected to play that much defense.

Jagr did play in Boston with one of the best possession players in the league.

Loui Eriksson also said that younger kids in Dallas felt insecure with Jagr and he took too much space and sometimes disappeared.

And Boston was very easy to let him go.

 

[pdd]

Buy out Quincey, Sammy. Let Flip, Cleary, White walk. Trade Tootoo

Quincey can easily be traded; he's a legit second-pairing defenseman on a fair-value deal. Wow... did I really just say that about his contract? Players are seriously overpaid compared to the last time the cap was ~$64m...

Sammy is definitely the buyout guy. There's no spot for him in the lineup even if the Wings don't keep or replace Flip/Brunner; the absolute worst case scenario is that the RFAs don't sign AND are not traded.

What if Weiss wants Flip money? Or more, he can make case for it.

What if Vinny wants 5.5-6 mil for 5 or more years?

Would you still offer it to them?

They're definitely much more worth the cap hit. Especially on a lesser term; in five years, we're looking at big deals for guys like Jarnkrok/Nyquist/etc., Datsyuk's new deal will be gone (he might still be around, probably on a lower hit, or he'll be retired) and Kronwall will have been replaced. I am definitely in favor of hanging on to on of the buyouts for next summer, though, and watching Franzen's progress... we can't afford to have him fail horribly and retire in a couple years and wreck our cap for several seasons. Which is a VERY real possibility.

 

[SportsballChic]

Quincey can easily be traded; he's a legit second-pairing defenseman on a fair-value deal. Wow... did I really just say that about his contract? Players are seriously overpaid compared to the last time the cap was ~$64m...

Exactly, also he was fine before he came back here. We have a reasonable shot of convincing whoever that it's a system thing. Also, I do not believe this will happen but there's a non zero percent chance that he's going to be good next year; he was actually very good in the playoffs. (I know, we aren't allowed to say nice things about Quincey but he wasn't bad for 14 games isn't "nice", it's just a thing).

They're definitely much more worth the cap hit. Especially on a lesser term; in five years, we're looking at big deals for guys like Jarnkrok/Nyquist/etc., Datsyuk's new deal will be gone (he might still be around, probably on a lower hit, or he'll be retired) and Kronwall will have been replaced. I am definitely in favor of hanging on to on of the buyouts for next summer, though, and watching Franzen's progress... we can't afford to have him fail horribly and retire in a couple years and wreck our cap for several seasons. Which is a VERY real possibility.

Yeah, I wrote that in an article about the offseason. I just do not see Holland not saving a buyout. Franzen is the obvious choice but any time you're carrying guys with 4+ year contracts; it's a tool you want to have lying around.

I would still be surprised if we spend it on Franzen next year btw; I'm not sure management is right, but I still believe they're on the "trade Franzen as soon as his salary resembles his Cap hit" plan... So 2016 I think.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Quick wasn't that great in reg. season.

I've seen your argument with Scuderi, you should also watch him more.

Quick/Bernier was a heck of a lot better than whatever trash Tampa had in net on a given day. In fact, Lindback had a similar Save% as Quick did. So it all evens out anyways. Both Scuderi and Vinny are bad. It's not just the Goalie's fault. The defense has to do their job too.

Yeah and Tampa D and G sucked back then too, iirc. Tampa is more or less goalie graveyard like Philly.

It's the forwards and D that create Corsi events. Forwards are also responsible for defense. Centers especially. This doesn't explain why Vinny keeps popping up as ONE OF THE WORST, if not THE WORST defenders among the forward corps.

Jagr did play in Boston with one of the best possession players in the league.

Jagr would be a complementary piece, not an impact piece. So if he was on the Red Wings, he'd have someone like Datsyuk or Zetterberg on his side.

Loui Eriksson also said that younger kids in Dallas felt insecure with Jagr and he took too much space and sometimes disappeared.

And I've heard comments that Jagr played a role in mentoring Claude Giroux. Different perspectives. Who cares, he's still worth something.

And Boston was very easy to let him go.

That's a very poor indicator of a players worth, especially when the stats say otherwise. Not to mention, they're going to lose Horton, and could get rid of Seguin if rumors are correct. GMs can do stupid things. Player value shouldn't be affected by what a GM does. Holmgren didn't waste any time dealing VanRiemsdyk or Jeff Carter after he signed them to extensions. Penguins are gonna lose just about everyone they traded for. Plenty of examples of good players let go because there is no room for them.

 

[SportsballChic]

That's a very poor indicator of a players worth, especially when the stats say otherwise. Not to mention, they're going to lose Horton, and could get rid of Seguin if rumors are correct. GMs can do stupid things. Player value shouldn't be affected by what a GM does. Holmgren didn't waste any time dealing VanRiemsdyk or Jeff Carter after he signed them to extensions. Penguins are gonna lose just about everyone they traded for. Plenty of examples of good players let go because there is no room for them.

I'm not for Jagr myself; but I also agree that Boston letting him walk right now says very little. He's clearly at that stage in his career where he's renting his services to Cup Contenders and enjoying the twilight of his time in hockey. The Bruins rented him, took their shot, came up short and now he's looking to move to a team that's peaking instead of retooling.

I don't want Jagr because he's old and we aren't 1x Jagr away from winning a Cup; but Boston's roster decisions don't hold much sway for me here.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

He's definitely a cap casualty, but his effectiveness in the playoffs was minimal compared to what he was being paid and he's 41 years old.

Its close to the equivalent of bringing in Samuelsson. Both had similar numbers in their most recent season, Jagr's being a little better, but Sammy being younger and cheaper.

Sammy was injured all season and registered all of one assist. Jagr was on pace for 60 points. He had a shooting percentage of 0 in the playoffs for taking the fourth most shots on goal per game on the team. 10 points and seventh in scoring isn't that bad. Playoff stats aren't a very good judgement of worth, especially since they can drastically change from year to year.

 

[Henkka]

Jagr for 48 game season + playoffs looked like a good deal, but I wouldn't invest a dime on him when the season is 82 games again (+playoffs). He is really big guy and big guys will for sure wear out on that age before any playoff game is played.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Jagr for 48 game season + playoffs looked like a good deal, but I wouldn't invest a dime on him when the season is 82 games again (+playoffs). He is really big guy and big guys will for sure wear out on that age before any playoff game is played.

Based upon what evidence? He played 71 the year before and got 50 points out of it. He played regular shifts lasting anywhere between 45-60 seconds. Averaged a decent amount of icetime. Nothing indicates he's wearing down.

 

[Henkka]

Based upon what evidence? He played 71 the year before and got 50 points out of it. He played regular shifts lasting anywhere between 45-60 seconds. Averaged a decent amount of icetime. Nothing indicates he's wearing down.

He is pretty much two years older now. That's the evidence. 42-year old is not a 40-year-old. Even super-human Lidström regressed most between those years.

Jagr is nothing but regular season mercenary at next season. Starts great, then disappears when the wear hits.

I think best fit for him would be bolt back in KHL and have that shorter schedule again.