So if the Spits next 5 years is like the previous 5 years but no Memorial Cup because they won't host it again you would be fine with it?
Windsor Spitfires 2017-18 Season Thread (Part 1)
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So if the Spits next 5 years is like the previous 5 years but no Memorial Cup because they won't host it again you would be fine with it?
youngblood10
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- Jan 26, 2010
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If I had to bet I'd say 10000% he'll be good with it.
But on the same hand & to be fair. If the Spits win the West division the next 5 years in a row going deep into the playoffs with no hardware in the trophy case you'll be flipping the script just as quick.
OHLTG
Registered User
No. We'd have to win the Cup.
Exactly. If Windsor is in the division hunt on multiple occasions, but doesn't win the OHL, this discussion would go to "can (coach) get them over the hump or new coach needed?"
Disappointed they didn't win sure. Content and happy about becoming a better organization that would obviously be producing more talent absolutely. Soo has had 17 NHL picks over that 5 year span almost twice as many as Windsor. That goes back to scouting/development/coaching. If Windsor became a franchise on a lesser level than London I think a lot of the fans would be ecstatic and you would see that in regards to fan interest on the up as well.
Nowhere did you address what he said though. The Soo have gone through 2 coaches during those 5 years. The OHL is goes through a lot of coaches now heck the Spits have a new one and we still never found out if Rocky could handle a rebuild. In fact I unless your coach is actually part owner of the organization a lot coaches now seem to only have a 2-3 year shelf life. So you would be wrong in the sense of coaching getting them over the hump because fact is organizations go through a lot of coaches. In the case of Windsor we already have a history with Letowski save to say he hasn't done much to date. You can say the jury is still out that's fair but his career thus far it's leaning towards a stop gap and not a long term solution
Letowski 2 years in Sarnia, new coach in Windsor
Saginaw Troy Smith 1st year in Saginaw
Flint-Oulahen 2nd year
Soo-Bannister going into 3rd year
Kitchener-McKee 1st year
Owen Sound-Gill 1st year with them
Guelph-George Burnett 1st year with
Erie-Hartsburg 1st year as head coach
London-Hunter going into 17th year
Sudbury-Stillman 1st year
Niagara-Burke 1st year
Mississauga-Richmond going into year 3
Barrie-Hawerchuk year 8
NB-Butler 20th year
Ottawa-Tourigny 1st year
Oshawa-Jones 3rd year
Peterborough-Hull 5th year
Kingston- Varady 1st year
Hamilton-Gruden 2nd year
So 15 out of the 20 coaches in the league are either going into their 3rd/2nd or their 1st year with their respective teams.
If you want to keep up these conversations in the future feel free but never and I mean never say what I am going to think because you don't know. I am tired of you trying to put words in my mouth and in the mouth's of others.
OHLTG
Registered User
You realize I wasn't the first one to say this, right? See below...Not sure why you got cranky at me when I wasn't the first one who brought it up. But, that's the way it goes
What am I missing here? He said if Windsor wins five division titles, but no hardware, you'd flip the script on this quickly. That's what I commented on. My coaches comment was merely an example of what would happen if we were winning, but not winning hardware. The attitude (in general) would be we are successful, but management can't get us over the hump. It wouldn't likely be on the players, so management is the lone option for blame.
A lot of fans would be thrilled, but there will be that group of fans that want titles. You'd still see frustration with not being able to capture a title.
OHLTG
Registered User
Not sure why you got cranky at me when I wasn't the first one who brought it up. But, that's the way it goes
What am I missing here? He said if Windsor wins five division titles, but no hardware, you'd flip the script on this quickly. That's what I commented on. My coaches comment was merely an example of what would happen if we were winning, but not winning hardware. The attitude (in general) would be we are successful, but management can't get us over the hump. It wouldn't likely be on the players, so management is the lone option for blame.
A lot of fans would be thrilled, but there will be that group of fans that want titles. You'd still see frustration with not being able to capture a title.
Youngblood brings stuff to the table and can have a good conversation. Not cranky but he played right up your alley because you consistently talk about people would say this, people would say that. Fact of the matter for the past 4-5 seasons I have been talking about getting better as an organization, drafting better, coaching better, developing better talent. Having just 9 players drafted over the past 5 seasons isn't good enough to contend over the long haul that's a fact as you have seen from 4 playoff wins over that time. For example are you going to give the Otters credit for developing McDavid? I guess you can but obviously more of that goes to McDavid and how he's a transcendent talent. Just as the Leafs shouldn't get a lot of credit for drafting another transcendent talent in Matthews.
The last 9 draft picks for the Spits from the NHL
Vilardi 1st round OHL pick
DiPietro 2nd round OHL pick
Sergachev 1st round import
Brown 1st round OHL
Ho-Sang 1st round OHL
Rychel 1st round OHL
Stanley 1st round OHL
The other ones were Sanvido/DiGiacinto.
Look at the Soo
Senyshyn 3rd round OHL pick
Bunting 9th round OHL pick
Gettinger 3rd round OHL pick
Timmins 4th round OHL pick
Kopacka 8th round OHL pick
Frost 4th round OHL pick and 1st round NHL pick
This is to go with past 1st round OHL picks like Speers/Salinitri etc.. The Soo haven't been successful just based off of who they select in the 1st round of the OHL draft it's all the other rounds they have scored a real good player. Just because you draft a guy in the 1st round of the OHL draft and gets drafted in the NHL draft doesn't mean a party should be thrown. Talk to me about the 3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th round OHL picks. Want to know why this is going to be a long rebuild in Windsor it's because they have only hit on 1st and 2nd round OHL picks for the past 3 years.
OHLTG
Registered User
So, if he says you'd say something, no sweat. If I say the exact same thing, you jump on me. Makes sense
Who gave Toronto credit for drafting Matthews? Most people I saw were ecstatic that Toronto was in that position. It was a no-brainer (though, Laine could have been argued at times). Same with McDavid and Erie; he was a generational talent.
Looking through Windsor's picks...
Andrew Burns - 3rd round
Aaron Luchuk - 4th round
Christian Fischer - 11th round (technically)
Cole Carter - 4th round
Luke Boka - 5th round
Cole Purboo - 9th round
It's tough to judge 2016 and 2017 drafts because the 2016 draft saw little action due to Memorial Cup, and 2017 hasn't been touched yet. Angle and Playfair (6th and 4th rds respectively in 2016), though, have been good in the time they've had.
This year will be a big one in terms of how the players are developing. You're going to see a lot of options from the 2015, 2016, and 2017 drafts. We'll find out how good the drafts truly were.
I also look at player development, and the fact that Spits had 4dmen signed to NHL contracts, Sergachev, Day, Chatfield,and Stanley,3 of them with age 18, plus Chatfield who was a free agent with Windsor,toss in Bracco and Addison,and both gave credit to Windsor for helping them become better 2 way players.
Windsor has a fine reputation for development of players,and coaches too.
Windsor has a fine reputation for development of players,and coaches too.
OHLTG
Registered User
Spits
My point was 4 D signed in one season
I already mentioned Stanley and Sergachev.
My point was 4 D signed in one season
That's good and entirely different from my point that scouting/development/coaching all need to get better. When 7 of your last 9 draft picks into the NHL have either been 1st or 2nd round NHL picks there is an issue with scouting it's not even really up for debate. I won't get too much into the development/coaching side because a lot of these other draft picks after round 2 didn't have a lot of upside to begin with from Brown/Murray/Verbeek/Hughes etc. etc.. It's clear as day why the Spits haven't been able to take that next step as an organization and why the rebuild looks like a long and arduous one at that. I understand some fans want to bask in the limelight of a Memorial Cup but when it gets down to cycles and rebuilds fact of the matter is more rebuilds fail than succeed.
SpItFiReZ
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- Jan 4, 2004
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Still unsure on this....is this equivalent to someone whose undrafted on the Vipers being signed but yet we own their rights as they are on our affiliate?
Spits
When you look at things, Spits have only failed with 1 rebuild since new ownership took over 11 years ago,as it relates to titles or cups.When the new ownership took over it was in most cases a 4 year plan,which did happen, winning twice in a row in fact,years 3 and 4,after improving by 50 points in year 2, the next 4 years resulted in a final 4 appearance,and then in year 4, despite being near the top of standings with London hosting (2014), a trade was made with Guelph involving Rychel's son,that trade with 2 key players moved,plus season ending injuries to 2of the other top D on the team help result in an early playoff exit.
We fast forward to the realization that rebuilds because of the changing nature of NHL teams taking players early,that rebuilds need to be done in 3 years not 4,and for the most part this is what during the last 3 years, especially the last 2 even more impressively, solid drafting and trades, excellent new coaching,and the Spits wind up with a Mem Cup.
To me 3 cycles,3 cups,2 league titles would be envy of most teams in this league.
Toss in the fact,that thru every Mem cup year Windsor has lost a player early, Bailey in year 1,Loktionov in year 2 and Fischer for this past season,no other team in the O can claim this fact and they still found a a way to win championships.
This year even sweeter after going thru league sanctions for 5 seasons plus, losing 2 -1st round picks,2 -2nd round picks explains why fewer NHL draft picks for sure.
Rayzor you have never acknowledge d the 1st point I made about winning cups despite losing players early in all year runs,no other teams in the O can claim the same,Oshawa in 2015 didn't lose a guy early,nor London in 2016 either,in fact London in 2005 won without losing a guy as well,NHL strike that year,and no team has won under sanctions.
I will take the successes with any disappointments from the last 3 cycles, especially the last 9 years.
I can only think of a couple fans who think otherwise.
When you look at things, Spits have only failed with 1 rebuild since new ownership took over 11 years ago,as it relates to titles or cups.When the new ownership took over it was in most cases a 4 year plan,which did happen, winning twice in a row in fact,years 3 and 4,after improving by 50 points in year 2, the next 4 years resulted in a final 4 appearance,and then in year 4, despite being near the top of standings with London hosting (2014), a trade was made with Guelph involving Rychel's son,that trade with 2 key players moved,plus season ending injuries to 2of the other top D on the team help result in an early playoff exit.
We fast forward to the realization that rebuilds because of the changing nature of NHL teams taking players early,that rebuilds need to be done in 3 years not 4,and for the most part this is what during the last 3 years, especially the last 2 even more impressively, solid drafting and trades, excellent new coaching,and the Spits wind up with a Mem Cup.
To me 3 cycles,3 cups,2 league titles would be envy of most teams in this league.
Toss in the fact,that thru every Mem cup year Windsor has lost a player early, Bailey in year 1,Loktionov in year 2 and Fischer for this past season,no other team in the O can claim this fact and they still found a a way to win championships.
This year even sweeter after going thru league sanctions for 5 seasons plus, losing 2 -1st round picks,2 -2nd round picks explains why fewer NHL draft picks for sure.
Rayzor you have never acknowledge d the 1st point I made about winning cups despite losing players early in all year runs,no other teams in the O can claim the same,Oshawa in 2015 didn't lose a guy early,nor London in 2016 either,in fact London in 2005 won without losing a guy as well,NHL strike that year,and no team has won under sanctions.
I will take the successes with any disappointments from the last 3 cycles, especially the last 9 years.
I can only think of a couple fans who think otherwise.
I believe the problem arose because he wasn't signed for the current year. He was signed in Jan for the following year so, technically, was still a FA at draft time which also meant he could be added by the team owning his affiliate rights (Knights) to their protected list.
I believe if Windsor had signed him for the current season London would have been SOL.
My thinking anyway.
I believe if Windsor had signed him for the current season London would have been SOL.
My thinking anyway.
The problem is you talk about a cycle being 4 years and that is partially correct. So the first Spits cycle started in 06/07 and ended when??? 09/10 or 10/11? I would probably say 09/10 with remnants in 10/11. A new cycle began 11/12 but that cycle clearly didn't last long as in Kerby was moved in Dec 2013. Then the Spits traded Ho-Sang in 2014. When did the last cycle begin in 14/15 or 15/16? Either way you point to a cycle being 4 years but this wasn't a 4 year cycle it was 3 at the most maybe 2 years. This is why I pointed to drafting and development.
I didn't ignore your point I already had brought up Sergachev/Stanley and high draft picks. Good for the Spits and their development and how apparently it's so great but other than the Memorial Cup a lot of other details you're ignoring over those past 5 years as I already pointed out. I fully understand you won't address those points because it will put the organization in a poor light and you still have skin in the game. What year does the new cycle start 17/18 or 18/19?
This is why rebuilds make no sense now because teams lose players early to the pros. You already mentioned Windsor. Well London could have contended this year if Marner and Tkachuk were around. This is why just being good year after year is a better plan because as long as you have good scouts/development/coaches you can withstand players leaving early. Owen Sound hasn't lost players early but they're one of the best franchises over the past 5 years in drafting and developing and look at that they're one of the contenders this year.
The best part of this next cycle there's no back door in regards to hosting a Memorial Cup. Some people here can see the spotlight will be on all the scouts/Rychel/Letowski. Can they do better than 4 playoff wins over 5 seasons, 9 draft picks we will soon find out. They should certainly win more than 4 playoff games but I am not sure about the 9 draft picks maybe 10/11 but they have a long way to go before being a real good drafting and development operation again.
Lalonde traded
If anybody interested... local kid Owen lalonde traded to Guelph today from Sudbury....think 6 picks and one player
If anybody interested... local kid Owen lalonde traded to Guelph today from Sudbury....think 6 picks and one player
Rayzor
I think the next cycle begins this season 17/18, the good thing is they are no longer under sanctions,unlike the last 5 years which no doubt impacted the last 2 cycles, although in the end it didn't hamper Windsor from winning the Mem Cup in this last cycle.
The scouting staff has been increased over the past 2 years,to me that's a good thing.
Early graduation will hurt getting future assets I am speaking of Sergachev and Day moving forward.
I look forward to seeing how things shake out,am willing to be patient,the overall success in the past 9 years means my confidence in management remains steadfast.
I still think any team in the O,would take 3 Mem Cups and 2 League titles in a 9 year period to what they they have done to date.
I think the next cycle begins this season 17/18, the good thing is they are no longer under sanctions,unlike the last 5 years which no doubt impacted the last 2 cycles, although in the end it didn't hamper Windsor from winning the Mem Cup in this last cycle.
The scouting staff has been increased over the past 2 years,to me that's a good thing.
Early graduation will hurt getting future assets I am speaking of Sergachev and Day moving forward.
I look forward to seeing how things shake out,am willing to be patient,the overall success in the past 9 years means my confidence in management remains steadfast.
I still think any team in the O,would take 3 Mem Cups and 2 League titles in a 9 year period to what they they have done to date.
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scokan
Registered User
wow..
maybe mod can open up a thread so you can throw stones at one another.. agree to always disagree no matter what the topic
maybe mod can open up a thread so you can throw stones at one another.. agree to always disagree no matter what the topic
There's a huge dichotomy in regards to what stats to use, what cycle means more, whether or not it's acceptable to criticize scouting etc.. Unfortunately in a year like this we won't be able to discuss the results because people will say that's secondary to development.
OHLTG
Registered User
Results will always matter. You never want to see a team go 1-9 or 5-20 (randomly picked). In a rebuilding year, though, development is crucial. You want the players in a position to grow and learn, thus setting them up for future success. For example - this past season, if Windsor lost 2-1 to Sarnia, there were questions about the offence or the lack of effort. This coming season, we'd be looking at the game differently. How did the young guys deal with the score? Who stepped up defensively given we've got a young d-core? Who kept them in the game mentally so that they didn't quit? The focus is different and that's fine.
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