Will PK Subban be a Hall of Famer when it is all said and done?
- Thread starter Nick Hansen
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
It is 100% not. Not even a little. Barring him completely overhauling his game and turning things around...
Not to say he hasn't had a few seasons of merit...the peak is fine, but this isn't trending towards being a HOF career, certainly...even if he gets "fun" points...
Right now, this is like Brian Campbell+...doesn't get a lot of mileage from me in that regard...
Not to say he hasn't had a few seasons of merit...the peak is fine, but this isn't trending towards being a HOF career, certainly...even if he gets "fun" points...
Right now, this is like Brian Campbell+...doesn't get a lot of mileage from me in that regard...
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
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So this is definitely underrating him. Maybe Randy Carlyle+ or something - weak/odd Norris and not a whole lot else. Or Wilson- probably.
I don't think you can reasonably induct Subban with Wilson still waiting, but by the time that comparison is relevant, maybe the standards will have slipped even more.
filinski77
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Top 10 Norris finishes:
Chara = 1/2/2/3/3/3/4/5/7/8
Doughty = 1/2/2/3/6/7/9/10
Keith = 1/1/4/6/6/7/9
Karlsson = 1/1/2/2/7
Weber = 2/2/3/4/4/6/7/8/10
Hedman = 1/3/3/7/9
Burns = 1/2/3/8
Letang = 3/4/6/6/8/9
Suter = 2/4/5/8/8/9
Subban = 1/3/3
Giordano = 1/6/8/10
Josi = 5/5/7/7
Carlson = 4/5/10
Pietrangelo = 4/5/9
This is how I would rank the Norris finishes of active D-men in the league. So currently I have Subban at 10th in this span, with players like Carlson and Josi who could easily pass him in the next 2 years if they have a couple more high finishes.
There are only 58 defencemen in the HOF right now, with around a third of that number being builders etc. There is no way we have 10 D-men from this era of Defenceman currently over 28 years old.
If he makes the HOF, it would be a joke,
Chara = 1/2/2/3/3/3/4/5/7/8
Doughty = 1/2/2/3/6/7/9/10
Keith = 1/1/4/6/6/7/9
Karlsson = 1/1/2/2/7
Weber = 2/2/3/4/4/6/7/8/10
Hedman = 1/3/3/7/9
Burns = 1/2/3/8
Letang = 3/4/6/6/8/9
Suter = 2/4/5/8/8/9
Subban = 1/3/3
Giordano = 1/6/8/10
Josi = 5/5/7/7
Carlson = 4/5/10
Pietrangelo = 4/5/9
This is how I would rank the Norris finishes of active D-men in the league. So currently I have Subban at 10th in this span, with players like Carlson and Josi who could easily pass him in the next 2 years if they have a couple more high finishes.
There are only 58 defencemen in the HOF right now, with around a third of that number being builders etc. There is no way we have 10 D-men from this era of Defenceman currently over 28 years old.
If he makes the HOF, it would be a joke,
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
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I'd argue Hedman is the line ignoring the trendline (5 top 10 finishes in 6 years) and probably the consensus best D in the league the past two.
For the record I have no idea why Suter would get waived in. Hall of very good.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
MXD
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While I think you're partly right... I knew there was something a tad incomplete.
The oldest player in that group is born in 1997 (Chara) and the youngest is born in 1990 (Josi). That gives 14 "calendar" years. 10 HHOF D-Men in 14 years isn't unprecedented : these 10 D-Men are all born being 1946 (Savard) and 1959 (Fetisov)
Serge Savard
Brad Park
Guy Lapointe
Bobby Orr
Larry Robinson
Borje Salming
Denis Potvin
Mark Howe
Rod Langway
Viacheslav Fetisov
Randy Carlyle, Doug Wilson are also born in that timespan.
Also, there are good reasons to be believe Alexei Kasatonov and Valeri Vasiliev could've made the HHOF were they just a little more not Russian (and the player "losing" his spot probably wouldn't be any of the above, as this is a VERY strong group of D-Men, ... MAYBE Rod Langway, but those two Norris). All of these players barring Lapointe, Savard and Langway (and Vasiliev) made the HOH Top-100 of all-time; Serge Savard just missed (he was 100th in the Agregate), Vasiliev made the Top-110, with Langway and Lapointe making the Top-130.
If these 1977 and 1990 born players have the case to make the HHOF, their YOB won't prevent them. There's already a precedent. But I do reckon that the line is somewhere at Hedman/Weber.
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Thenameless
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Subban doesn't make it for me, and I'm pretty well known as more of a "peak" guy. If a defenseman is going to go to the Hall, one of the first boxes one looks to check off is his number of Norrises - he should have at least one. Okay, he's got one. Check. After that it falls apart rather quickly.
Thing is, even when he won his Norris, it didn't feel to me like he was the best defenseman in the league. He was a high scoring defenseman, sure, but that really doesn't make you the best overall. Another thing that supports this is has lack of inclusion on the Team Canada roster. When a guy is truly the best in the NHL, he should be a no-brainer for a national team, even one as strong as Canada's; in fact you should be on the top pairing. It's indicative of hockey minds thinking that he doesn't "give you the best chance to win". And it's as simple as that.
Another thing that one has to wonder about is why Montreal traded him during his prime. And then Nashville does the same.
His career is not over yet, and he's still young enough to do something special given the right circumstances. But, if he remains on his current trajectory, he's not going to make it.
Thing is, even when he won his Norris, it didn't feel to me like he was the best defenseman in the league. He was a high scoring defenseman, sure, but that really doesn't make you the best overall. Another thing that supports this is has lack of inclusion on the Team Canada roster. When a guy is truly the best in the NHL, he should be a no-brainer for a national team, even one as strong as Canada's; in fact you should be on the top pairing. It's indicative of hockey minds thinking that he doesn't "give you the best chance to win". And it's as simple as that.
Another thing that one has to wonder about is why Montreal traded him during his prime. And then Nashville does the same.
His career is not over yet, and he's still young enough to do something special given the right circumstances. But, if he remains on his current trajectory, he's not going to make it.
filinski77
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Well, the list I had with 58 players was very much skewed by builders and the O6 era. Pronger is HOFer with the most recent draft year for d-men.
In total, there have been 17 Defencemen entered into the HOF with draft years from 1970-1995, so much less than 1 per draft year.
Considering that my list has not included D-men that have been drafted in the last 8 or so years who could also easily pass Subban's accomplishments, I still don't think it's close at all. (ie. Dahlin, Makar, Heiskanen, Jones etc), who all will play at the same time as PK Subban for 8+ years.
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
I'd put him between Letang and Burns, at least for now.
...and I'm not saying he "should" be in the Hall. If it was up to me, I'd do a lot of editing to the list as it stands now. I'm just saying that he will likely get in.
sr edler
gold is not reality
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The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
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The "left off team Canada" narrative despite being the reigning Norris winner is really going to hurt his standing.
I don't see how based on Norris voting, especially considering his Norris is particularly weak (lockout shortened season) while Burns' came with very strong competition (Karlsson and Hedman each scoring over 70 points and being the other top 3 vote getters). If you want to say it's because Burns is particularly bad defensively, while I don't disagree, it's not like Subban's reputation as a defender is that of a shutdown player.
Letang is also going to get some postseason bonus points for 3 Cups.
MXD
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...And that's a part of the issue regarding Subban : he was MUCH better defensively than his reputation would tell you.
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
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He was lumped in with EK during EK's 4th forward days unfairly. He was always good defensively. But great? Eh... he was prone to some pretty big risks/brain farts at times. He also doesn't have a playoff run you can point to and say "he's why they did that good." Burns and Letang each have a pretty awesome run (even in a losing effort in Burns' case) where they can add it as a feather in their cap. Subban has been on a couple of deep runs, but - and this may be my memory playing tricks - but I don't remember him as in the discussion for the teams' best player on either run.
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
MXD
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... Maybe I'm the only one in this boat, but I've never considered "brainfarting with the puck in the D-Zone" as a part of defensive play per se. Your mileage may vary.
Subban came very big against Boston in 2014 and was the Habs best player in that run, led them in scoring and all.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
That's an interesting one, Subban over Letang...considering they're very similar, except Tanger is just a better version of him (minus the shot)...
Voight
#winning
Very similar to Pietrangelo who went 4,14,5,22,no votes,16,9 and again received no votes last year.
Five years ago I would have said yes.
Now, not so much. He's got a Dany Heatley sort-of thing going for him.
Now, not so much. He's got a Dany Heatley sort-of thing going for him.
Big Phil
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I think Letang is definitely a notch above him. Letang has been around for a long time and his play hasn't slipped. The question is whether a defenseman like him has a high enough peak, but since Letang isn't really slowing down (he finished 6th in Norris voting last year) I don't know how Subban could be ahead of him. The problem with Letang is that he has had some injury troubles his whole career. He has a lot of trouble playing entire seasons. That has been his biggest problem. His career would have looked a lot better had he done this. But he has a good postseason record. Sure the Pens won without him in the line up in 2017 but they were a tired, tired bunch on defense without their 30 minute a game man back there. They really rode the backs of Crosby and Malkin in 2017 similar to the way they did in 2009 while in 2016 it was more of a scoring by committee thing in the playoffs with Letang being a Conn Smythe candidate.
Here is a serious question that you have to ask. Subban is a face that is known in the game. Whether you like him or not he has done a lot of charity work and the media seems to love him a lot which will go a long ways as we've seen before. These things are positive points in his favour and might make people gloss over the fact that he has holes in his career not fitting for a HHOF defenseman. But does being the next black player to make it in the HHOF play a factor? Fuhr is in there, Iginla we know for sure is a lock and if Subban doesn't get in we'll just have to wait and see how Seth Jones' career unfolds or maybe Quinton Byfield (2020 draft eligible) has a shot. Either way we are talking 20 years here before it happens, if it does. Does this help Subban, or is it not a factor?
ted2019
History of Hockey
scott clam
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When he was at his best his excellent play was always overshadowed by his antics. And when he came closest to the big prize he made a fool of himself trying to upstage the best player in the world.
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
These are all reasons that I think he will make it, on top of a very iffy resume, spotted with some nice accomplishments but a little thin overall.
sr edler
gold is not reality
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What were his antics exectly? I can't remember a whole lot. I remember Mike Richards of the Flyers whined about him being cocky but Adam Oates whined about Hertl's between-the-legs goal so someone whining about something is not doing a whole lot for me per default.
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