Will Ovi breaking Gretzky's goalscoring record change or influence his legacy?

[powerbomb]

Needless to say, there's a huge difference in the legacy of Alex Ovechkin between if he breaks Gretzky's goalscoring record and if he doesn't. It's almost strange to ask the question. For a lot of people, the proof is in the pudding as to the question of "greatest goalscorer of all-time," which that record reflects. If he retired short of that mark, the argument for goalscoring GOAT is diminished, as opposed to eclipsing it.

Sure, his fans who have already decided he's the GOAT will bang that drum regardless, just as detractors will cling to that old mark on the wall. Frankly, the entire argument about what constitutes "greatest of all time" has been reduced to partisan fandom where there is no objective balancing point, but... that's another story.

As a quick aside, I still think it's laughable when people use the word "politics" as a magic shield to encompass all things, no matter how indefensible the position. When slaughter becomes a form of political expression, and people are supposed to respect "differences of opinion" even as they descend into violence, you know it's becoming a lost cause. What a mad world. Oh well...

FTR: I'm rooting for Ovechkin to break the record because that's why records exist, even though I'll still regard Mario Lemieux as the greatest pure goalscorer I've ever seen when it's all said and done. In any case, what a career he's put together... when he's gone, I hope he gets the appreciation he deserves as an all time talent.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

It's a trade-off though. Had Gretzky focused more on goal scoring, his point totals would have gone down, perhaps even substantially.

Conversely, had Ovechkin chosen to focus more on playmaking, his point totals would have increased, probably dramatically.

So Ovechkin just decided to score less points? Why would he sabotage his team by contributing to less goals? The fact is he's a pure goal scorer because he's not capable of being an elite playmaker.

The thing that separates Gretzky/Lemieux is that they were both the best goal scorer AND the best playmaker in the league in their primes. Ovechkin is one dimensional in comparison.

 

[Randyne]

So Ovechkin just decided to score less points? Why would he sabotage his team by contributing to less goals?

It's NHL decided to ban goalscorers from collecting secondary assists on their goals.
Ovechkin's total goals on-ice for = 2030, which is 206 goals more than Sid's.
In those 206 goals big portion of Ovechkin's secondary assists that weren't counted.

1 goal generates 3 points: 1 point to goalscorer, 1 point to primary assistant, 1 point to secondary assistant.
2030 TGF mean that even if he turned to playmaking collecting more points his team wouldn't benefit from it (or this even could be less goals overall).

 

[Midnight Judges]

So Ovechkin just decided to score less points? Why would he sabotage his team by contributing to less goals? The fact is he's a pure goal scorer because he's not capable of being an elite playmaker.

The thing that separates Gretzky/Lemieux is that they were both the best goal scorer AND the best playmaker in the league in their primes. Ovechkin is one dimensional in comparison.

*fewer*

Anyway, no he's not contributing less. He's contributing a greater portion of the effort necessary for each goal scored relative to a player who passes to the player who passes to the goal scorer. Every coach the Capitals have ever had recognized this and made the choice to gameplan to use his shot despite him being an excellent playmaker. This will reduce Ovechkin's secondary assists in particular but increase total team goals. The results speak for themselves:

During the span of Ovechkin's career, the Capitals are 2nd in the NHL in goals for per game played (not counting Vegas). They were a lottery team when Ovie arrived. The fact that this coincides with having the clear cut greatest and best goal scorer of all time is not a coincidence.

Gretzky and Lemieux could not have both been the best goal scorer and best playmaker in the league. They were born 4.5 years apart and their primes largely overlapped. Nevermind that Gretzky was always a better playmaker than Lemieux and topped Lemieux in assists almost every single year. Your point here is just bogus history revision from a Penguins fan.

Ovechkin also brings a level of physicality that Gretzky and Lemieux could only dream of. Ovie also led his generation in points through 17 years. Calling him one dimensional is a blatant falsehood.

 

[T REX]

Overall? Sure, but in terms of a goalscorer...we'll have to wait and see. Lots of arguments already for him being the greater goalscorer

The poster said greatest player of all time not goalscorer.

 

[COHawk]

That literally makes no sense. It’s a legitimate question to ask when he’s 115 goals away with 4 years left to play.

Right? He needs to average 29 goals per season over the last 4 years to break the record.

He has been averaging 43 goals per season in his 30s alone! And that is with shortened seasons included. Translate that to 82 games and he's averaging 48 goals per game.

 

[apparentlyclueless]

Right? He needs to average 29 goals per season over the last 4 years to break the record.

He has been averaging 43 goals per season in his 30s alone! And that is with shortened seasons included. Translate that to 82 games and he's averaging 48 goals per game.

I know these comparisons have been beaten to death but since we're one year closer to Ovechkin retiring, just for the fun of it: If Ovechkin ages like Selänne, which in itself would be a fine feat for any player.

Age 37: 12 goals in 26 gp
Age 38: 27 goals in 65 gp
Age 39: 27 goals in 54 gp
Age 40: 31 goals in 73 gp

That's 97 goals for 37-40 year old Selänne with significant time missed - not to mention Selänne played for 3 more years and scored 47 more goals during those seasons. Ovi needs 115.

I would say it's safe to assume Ovie won't miss as much time as Selänne. He's also on a different tier so I would assume he keeps a better pace as well.

Although who the hell really knows. Ovie might fall off a cliff or get seriously injured... But at this point I'd say it's very likely that he will break the record.

 

[psycat]

This. Ovechkin is the best goal scorer.

He is a glorified volume shooter and I say that as someone who rank him higher than most(based on peak as an overall offensive threat mostly) not the best but arguably the greatest goalscorer.

Also yes it would certainly influence his legacy in the future since people like absolutes.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

It's NHL decided to ban goalscorers from collecting secondary assists on their goals.
Ovechkin's total goals on-ice for = 2030, which is 206 goals more than Sid's.
In those 206 goals big portion of Ovechkin's secondary assists that weren't counted.

1 goal generates 3 points: 1 point to goalscorer, 1 point to primary assistant, 1 point to secondary assistant.
2030 TGF mean that even if he turned to playmaking collecting more points his team wouldn't benefit from it (or this even could be less goals overall).

Garnering 1 point means that a goal was scored by the team.

Given two players at the end of their careers: 1 has 1000 points and the other has 1001. All else being equal, I don’t give a shit if the dude that scored 1000 did so with 1000 goals, I am taking the dude that scored 1001.

If anything, a shit load of people put too much emphasis on goal scoring. Total points should be the biggest determining factor. No one gives a shit who has the most 30/40/50 goal seasons.

Too many people confuse being the best goal scoring with being the best hockey player. It’s ridiculous to read.

 

[Randyne]

Given two players at the end of their careers: 1 has 1000 points and the other has 1001. All else being equal, I don’t give a shit if the dude that scored 1000 did so with 1000 goals, I am taking the dude that scored 1001.

Player with 1000 goals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Player with 1001 secondary assists
Because player with 1000 goals has a lot of secondary assists which weren't counted. If NHL played all games in one rink with a tree in the middle, that tree would have zilllion secondary assists =points

 

[Cursed Lemon]

People remember records.

 

[YippieKaey]

He is a glorified volume shooter and I say that as someone who rank him higher than most(based on peak as an overall offensive threat mostly) not the best but arguably the greatest goalscorer.

Also yes it would certainly influence his legacy in the future since people like absolutes.

In the eternal words of Michael Gary Scott:

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"

 

[snag]

He is a glorified volume shooter and I say that as someone who rank him higher than most(based on peak as an overall offensive threat mostly) not the best but arguably the greatest goalscorer.

Also yes it would certainly influence his legacy in the future since people like absolutes.

I never thought of it like that and I think it kinda gets lost...I mean, look at the stats and Gretz is STILL 114 goals ahead?? If things stay linear (they don't), he will have needed to take 1859 more shots than Gretzky merely to tie him.

Flip things around and keeping all things equal (we don't deal in hyperbole at HF do we ), in the shots it "would" take OV to get to 894 (6947) , Gretzky "could" have scored 1220.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I never thought of it like that and I think it kinda gets lost...I mean, look at the stats and Gretz is STILL 114 goals ahead?? If things stay linear (they don't), he will have needed to take 1859 more shots than Gretzky merely to tie him.

Flip things around and keeping all things equal (we don't deal in hyperbole at HF do we ), in the shots it "would" take OV to get to 894 (6947) , Gretzky "could" have scored 1220.


View attachment 592515

So it's basically Ovechkin vs your imagination.

 

[Randyne]

I never thought of it like that and I think it kinda gets lost...I mean, look at the stats and Gretz is STILL 114 goals ahead?? If things stay linear (they don't), he will have needed to take 1859 more shots than Gretzky merely to tie him.

Flip things around and keeping all things equal (we don't deal in hyperbole at HF do we ), in the shots it "would" take OV to get to 894 (6947) , Gretzky "could" have scored 1220.

And Mal Davis could score 1723 goals and 14 nonames even 6947 goals.

 

[Midnight Judges]

And Mal Davis could score 1723 goals and a 14 nonames even 6947 goals.

...only if they're selfish lol.

 

[snag]

So it's basically Ovechkin vs your imagination.

If you consider statistical analysis imagination.

Why so sore?

 

[Midnight Judges]

If you consider statistical analysis imagination.

Why so sore?

"Analysis"

 

[McPoyle]

It would give a significant boost to Ovechkins legacy. Right now he is viewed by most as the 2nd best player of the cap era and probably a borderline top 10 player all time. If he can continue on and pass 894 he is likely considered the best player of the cap era and be comfortably in the top 10 all time.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Player with 1000 goals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Player with 1001 secondary assists
Because player with 1000 goals has a lot of secondary assists which weren't counted. If NHL played all games in one rink with a tree in the middle, that tree would have zilllion secondary assists =points

Holy hell. Why don’t we move those goal posts a little farther back, Batman?

My point holds true, the person with the most points has done more for his team than one with less points.

 

[bobholly39]

He is a glorified volume shooter and I say that as someone who rank him higher than most(based on peak as an overall offensive threat mostly) not the best but arguably the greatest goalscorer.

Also yes it would certainly influence his legacy in the future since people like absolutes.

He's a volume shooter for sure but....thats a good thing. He needs to shoot a lot to score goals, and so he does, and still scores more than anyone.

Imo Lemieux is the most skilled goal scorer ever - but Ovi has scored so consistently he deserves the title of greatest (already today - beating the record will just solidify it so much more).

It would give a significant boost to Ovechkins legacy. Right now he is viewed by most as the 2nd best player of the cap era and probably a borderline top 10 player all time. If he can continue on and pass 894 he is likely considered the best player of the cap era and be comfortably in the top 10 all time.

If you already have Crosby ahead of Ovi today - 895 goals doesn't change that. Maybe if Crosby retired tomorrow it would.

The only way for Ovechkin to surpass Crosby all time would be:

1. He's already ahead as of today. Most have Crosby ahead - if you don't, cool.

2. Ovechkin does better than Crosby moving forward. Possible but unlikely - Crosby is younger and the better player today. It's logical he has more to add to his resume, or at most they cancel each other out.

If neither of the above 2 scenarios are true - simply hitting a milestone - no matter how important a milestone 895 goals would be - won't bump him above Crosby.

 

[McPoyle]

If you already have Crosby ahead of Ovi today - 895 goals doesn't change that. Maybe if Crosby retired tomorrow it would.

You don't get to decide for everyone how they rank players.

I currently rank Crosby above Ovechkin, but if Ovi continues on to get the all time goals record he likely passes Crosby in my eyes.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

even if he breaks Gretzky's goal record he will still never get above Crosby. Crosby will always be known as the better overall player. the guy you would take 9 times out of 10 throughout their career. how they compare going into these final seasons of their career holds little meaning. Crosby will always be better sorry OV fans

 

[apparentlyclueless]

I never thought of it like that and I think it kinda gets lost...I mean, look at the stats and Gretz is STILL 114 goals ahead?? If things stay linear (they don't), he will have needed to take 1859 more shots than Gretzky merely to tie him.

Flip things around and keeping all things equal (we don't deal in hyperbole at HF do we ), in the shots it "would" take OV to get to 894 (6947) , Gretzky "could" have scored 1220.


View attachment 592515

Mike Bossy has shooting percentage of 21.2, Kurri 19.9, Trottier 18.5 and Peter Stastny 19.0. It's no coincidence that these players played in the high scoring 80's with low save-%. So if you really want to make a comparison like that you would have to ship Ovie back to 80's with a time machine and bring 80's Gretzky to future.

 

[Cup or Bust]

Having the most goals scored in NHL history will definitely bring a guy's name up more often, but I think whether Ovechkin is 1st or 2nd in goals, his name will always come up when it comes to the greatest goal scorers of all time. I wouldn't consider him the best hockey player in the past 15 years, but certainly the best goal scorer.