Will Ovechkin hit 20 goals this season?

[MadLuke]

Next: Do you think someone with that huge of a goal-scoring ego would retire when he is only 50 goals or less away from catching Gretzky?

It seem to me the exact same point could be made both ways.

Do you think someone that big of an ego would accept to play 11-12 minutes a night has a third liner ? being #242 in league goal scored, making league minimum salary to continue to play ?

I can use Gretzky as an example, although, with him, I have met him and 100% know he doesn't have an ego.

That such a strange thing to say, in the for one of the greatest athlete ever sense ? Gretzky tried too and had a season of 2 assist a game (according to him in is auto-biography) how could this ever take place in a ego-less being, look at his reaction to not get pick in 1998 shootout, his reaction to break Howe record, like almost all humans outside some high level Buddhist, Gretzky has an ego and we can imagine a very big one (and a justifiable and reasonable one, not a out of place at all but he was one very prideful athlete that would not give up easily, it was one of his many strength).

 

[TheTotalPackage]

People can debate who is the greatest scorer of all-time -- Bossy, Bobby Hull, Ovechkin, perhaps Matthews in due time.

But unless and until the record is broken, regardless of what the adjusted stats say, Gretzky will continue to be the most prolific one.

 

[cvaicunas]

Ovechkin in 2024:
a) GW against pengiuns
b) helpers that ended goalles streaks of Kuznetsov vs NJD and Strome vs CAR.
c) still leads in points among all Capitals.
Haters: "Ovechkin is a problem".
This hell gonna end, but when?

It is sad to watch his decline as a hockey fan, it's inevitable, and nothing against the player. I don't watch many Caps games, but I can remember when he first broke into the league, and I miss watching one of most dynamic, physical players I have ever seen. Obviously I am just picking to use your post to jump into the conversation, as I don't think we disagree. I guess I don't understand why it's so trendy to conversationally jump on one of the greats.

 

[MadLuke]

But unless and until the record is broken, regardless of what the adjusted stats say, Gretzky will continue to be the most prolific one.

One could use the record of who lead the league in goals during a season most time and arrive at a different conclusion.

People can debate who is the greatest scorer of all-time -- Bossy, Bobby Hull, Ovechkin, perhaps Matthews in due time.

Lemieux and Richard would be two common answers.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

You know this forum has gone full mental when Crosby fans have to come in here to defend Ovechkin.

 

[Toby91ca]

Ovechkin in 2024:
a) GW against pengiuns
b) helpers that ended goalles streaks of Kuznetsov vs NJD and Strome vs CAR.
c) still leads in points among all Capitals.
Haters: "Ovechkin is a problem".
This hell gonna end, but when?

Few things to consider here:

1 - Pointless to pay much attention to haters because no matter what is happening, a hater is always going to find a negative
2 - Pointing out his GWG against PIT isn't really helping an argument.....him scoring is helpful, but calling out the GWG isn't really....he basically flipped the puck from the blueline and it ended up going in, which is why its never a bad thing to try to get the puck to the net, but it's not like he took over the game and willed the team to victory with a big game winning goal late in the 3rd or OT. His goal put them up 4-0 in the 1st period, PIT came back to score 3 goals over the balance of the game so it ended up being the GWG.
3 - Leading a team in points that has score the 3rd fewest goals in the league isn't that great of an accomplishment either. The bigger issue here is the goals and I'll use Crosby as an example, rather not, but I can't pick a guy like MacKinnon who's near the top of the scoring charts, younger guy, etc. So, this year, Crosby has 24 goals and a pretty strong (for his stage in his career) 44pts in 41 games. I think people would be questioning the goal totals if Crosby only had 8 goals and 44 points in 41 games as well, so it's just getting super magnified for him for 3 big reasons 1) it's Ovechkin, goals are that much more important and part of his game, 2) his point total, while respectable, is tracking to be not only the lowest of his career, which is reasonable at this age, but significantly the lowest and 3) back to the goals....because he's getting so close to the record, people might zero in on the goal totals so much they don't even look at anything else.
4 - He's definitely still able to play in the league, I think the reasonable observers are going to ask how long because he's certainly looking like he's declining fast (could he bounce back? Of course, but if he doesn't, people will continue to think about this.....the haters, well, you know what will happen there).

 

[Toby91ca]

So, reading a bit of the comments here about the best goal scorer, the greatest goal scorer or most prolific goal scorer, I don't necessarily play into all of those semantics. I understand the thought process around the guy at the top, with the most actual goals is the guy until someone scores more, I get it. Gretzky is a tough one for me because he's scored more goals in a single year than anyone as well, he's also scored 50 in 39 games, stuff no one has come close to. After hurting his back, he's never been the same in scoring goals, but who knows, simple age would have an impact as well. I haven't put too much thought into as he is still sitting at the top in actual goal totals, so that does hold some value....would have to give it more thought though.

When you start going a little lower on the goal scoring chain though, someone without the record, I'm not sure most who look at that with the same qualifying view. For example, I doubt anyone would suggest Messier and Yzerman are better goal scorers than Lemieux, but both have more goals than Lemieux.

 

[wetcoast]

One could use the record of who lead the league in goals during a season most time and arrive at a different conclusion.

Lemieux and Richard would be two common answers.

Sure but strictly in terms of goal scoring Ovechkin has the greatest across the board argument for being the best goal scorer of all time right?

 

[DRW895]

My opinion is the same: he is still 40-45 goal player. With all hell in last 3-4 months. Never give up

 

[Toby91ca]

One could use the record of who lead the league in goals during a season most time and arrive at a different conclusion.

But if you play during a period with several other all-time great goal scorers, you'd be unfairly compared against a guy who played during a time with less talented goal scorers.

 

[Norwegianoiler]

Papa Putain will pull some of Ovie's puppet strings and let him score a few in one of those propaganda games.

 

[tfwnogf]

The timeline of Ovechkin haters:

2010/2011: 32 goals in 79 games - "Ovi is done"
2011/2012: 38 goals in 78 games - "washed"
2012/2013: 32 goals in 48 games - "fluke short season"
2013/2014: 51 goals in 78 games - "lol only 28 assists selfish!"
2014/2015: 53 goals in 81 games - "pp merchant"
2015/2016: 50 goals in 79 games - "still no cup lmao"
2016/2017: 33 goals in 82 games - "ok he's cooked for sure"
2017/2018: 49 goals in 82 games (cup win) - *crickets*
2018/2019: 51 goals in 81 games - "he's gonna fall off soon..."
2019/2020: 48 goals in 68 games - "...any minute now..."
2020/2021: 24 goals in 45 games - "...come on..."
2021/2022: 50 goals in 77 games - "omg this has to be the last good year"
2022/2023: 42 goals in 73 games - "...at least it's not 50"
2023/2024: 8 goals in 39 games - "YES!!!!!!!!!!!! I KNEW HE WAS GONNA FALL OFF HAHAHAHAHA"

 

[MadLuke]

Sure but strictly in terms of goal scoring Ovechkin has the greatest across the board argument for being the best goal scorer of all time right?

I think Ovechkin argument to be the greatest goalscorer is stronger than to the best goal scorer.

Mario as a really good argument to be the best goalscorer of all time, most tools, dangerous in the most different situations that would have been the best in the most different league environment, stick technology and set of rules.

But 3 Rocket to 9.. greatness is not only being the best at it, it is a lot about actually doing it and proving it. Ovechkin is obviously in conversation and at the top for both (best and greatest), but the conversation is always way more open and debatable for the best than the greatest.

 

[MadLuke]

But if you play during a period with several other all-time great goal scorers, you'd be unfairly compared against a guy who played during a time with less talented goal scorers.

Certainly, but it is not like Gretzky lost many Rocket just to the Mario-Hull-Bossy type of scorer, if we list the "worst" scorer that finished higher than Gretzky the years he got close but did not lead the league in goals it would looks like:

81: Dionne/Simmer.
86: Kerr, Anderson, Goulet
89: Bernie Nicholls, Steve Yzerman

That not more legendary goalscorer than Kovalchuck-Matthews-Stamkos-old Selanne, it is not really a Maurice Richard finishing second in points only to Gordie Howe 2xtime or loosing the Norris only to Orr many time a la Park, the "lack' (5time is quite a lot, only Ovechkin trackrecord could make that word have any sense) of leading the league in goals is not because the Lemieux-Hull-Bossy type having historic season at the same time that Gretzky was having your regular good most other year for the Rocket season being denied.

 

[Midnight Judges]

People can debate who is the greatest scorer of all-time -- Bossy, Bobby Hull, Ovechkin, perhaps Matthews in due time.

Ovechkin has a far stronger case than anyone else. Peak, prime, longevity - he has it all.

Bossy really shouldn't be in the discussion and Matthews has about 3 more Richard trophies to win before he's in it.

 

[HockeyThoughts]

Ovechkin has a far stronger case than anyone else. Peak, prime, longevity - he has it all.

Bossy really shouldn't be in the discussion and Matthews has about 3 more Richard trophies to win before he's in it.

Mike Bossy might not have been a better goalscorer than Wayne Gretzky (..who was really?) - but he was an absolutely prolific goalscorer in his own right. He was basically in his prime throughout his entire career but his three year run between the 1980-81 season to 1982-83 season was absolutely outstanding. He scored 243G in 294gp (regular season and playoffs) during this period.

He is likely a top 5 goalscorer along with Gretzky, Lemieux and the Hulls.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Mike Bossy might not have been a better goalscorer than Wayne Gretzky (..who was really?) - but he was an absolutely prolific goalscorer in his own right. He was basically in his prime throughout his entire career but his three year run between the 1980-81 season to 1982-83 season was absolutely outstanding. He scored 243G in 294gp (regular season and playoffs) during this period.

He is likely a top 5 goalscorer along with Gretzky, Lemieux and the Hulls.

Bossy is propped up by the era he played in. Scoring 50 in Bossy's day is about like scoring 38 goals during most of Ovechkin's career. Bossy led the NHL in goals all of twice. He really doesn't stand out any more than Stamkos, the difference being Stamkos played in a lower scoring era.

Here's a bunch of stats. Bossy doesn't stack up very well against the greats.

 

[coooldude]

The timeline of Ovechkin haters:

2010/2011: 32 goals in 79 games - "Ovi is done"
2011/2012: 38 goals in 78 games - "washed"
2012/2013: 32 goals in 48 games - "fluke short season"
2013/2014: 51 goals in 78 games - "lol only 28 assists selfish!"
2014/2015: 53 goals in 81 games - "pp merchant"
2015/2016: 50 goals in 79 games - "still no cup lmao"
2016/2017: 33 goals in 82 games - "ok he's cooked for sure"
2017/2018: 49 goals in 82 games (cup win) - *crickets*
2018/2019: 51 goals in 81 games - "he's gonna fall off soon..."
2019/2020: 48 goals in 68 games - "...any minute now..."
2020/2021: 24 goals in 45 games - "...come on..."
2021/2022: 50 goals in 77 games - "omg this has to be the last good year"
2022/2023: 42 goals in 73 games - "...at least it's not 50"
2023/2024: 8 goals in 39 games - "YES!!!!!!!!!!!! I KNEW HE WAS GONNA FALL OFF HAHAHAHAHA"

Speaking for the silent majority:

2010-17: "Ovie is awesome. What a legend. Wonder if he can win a Cup. Maybe the Caps are the Sharks of the East?"
2018: "Awesome, Ovie won a cup. Man, what a f***ing legend. I am loving these instagram updates on his celebratory week-long bender."
2019-23: "Ovie, still got it!" and then seeing him live, "Holy shit, I didn't realize how much Ovie just coasts around and stands around on the PP until he gets his one chance, but to his credit, seems like that's all he needs... Definitely looks older and slower though, wonder if he can keep it up long enough to break the record"
2023-24: "Uh oh, now he looks slow AND the goals aren't coming. Seems like it might be a tough slog to break Gretz's record." And this thread.

And sprinkled in there, for some: "man, Ovie's pro-Putin politics sure suck." which either doesn't matter for the above, or matters a lot.

Not everyone is either 100% on board with Ovie being the best goal scorer ever using whatever stats necessary to make the argument, OR, an Ovie hater no matter what. There are many (dozens?) of us in the middle.

 

[wetcoast]

I think Ovechkin argument to be the greatest goalscorer is stronger than to the best goal scorer.

Mario as a really good argument to be the best goalscorer of all time, most tools dangerous in the most different situation that would have been the best in the most different league environment and set of rules.

But 3 Rocket to 9.. greatness is not only being the best at it, it is a lot about actually doing it and proving it. He is obviously in conversation for both, but the best conversation is always way more open and debatable than the greatest.

Fair enough but I think most people look at the best/greatest in the same way.

Mike Bossy might not have been a better goalscorer than Wayne Gretzky (..who was really?) - but he was an absolutely prolific goalscorer in his own right. He was basically in his prime throughout his entire career but his three year run between the 1980-81 season to 1982-83 season was absolutely outstanding. He scored 243G in 294gp (regular season and playoffs) during this period.

He is likely a top 5 goalscorer along with Gretzky, Lemieux and the Hulls.

Ovi isn't in your top 5?

 

[jcs0218]

Ovechkin is missing another game with an injury this evening.

I wonder if he will have injury concerns going forward.

He has been so durable during his career.

 

[HTFN]

Ovechkin is missing another game with an injury this evening.

I wonder if he will have injury concerns going forward.

He has been so durable during his career.

no real wonder, guy plays hockey. He hasn't been durable, he's been resilient.

Nastya Ovechkina shares grotesque photo of a bruise on Alex Ovechkin’s leg

Friday morning, Alex Ovechkin confirmed that he was suffering from a knee and hamstring injuries during the playoffs, the latter of which…

russianmachineneverbreaks.com

Man has been hurt a time or two, I think we all know that. He wants to be out there more than he wants to sit. That's why the whole "Russian Machine Never Breaks" thing became a thing, but of course it's a front and he's a human who has endured shit over an NHL career.

You think he's magically touched and just hasn't had a wrist injury by an errant slash ever?

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Watch Ovechkin miss the rest of the season with injury then score 35 or something silly next season...that would be typical Ovechkin weirdness

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Has anybody ever calculated how many of Ovie's goals were from his "office"?

I think Ovie is great, but to me, the best goal scorer is the one that can score from anywhere, anytime. Not just one spot on the powerplay.

And history shows us that Ovie will be the best goal scorer for about 15ish years, then people will just start to forget about him, and the number of goals will be more important than how he actually played.

I think you should watch this and judge for yourself:



To me, this is everywhere on the ice, consistently for nearly 20 years. I think we may not ever see another 800 goal scorer in our lifetime, unless something changes drastically (rules, ice size, net size etc.)

 

[Beukeboom]

Mike Bossy might not have been a better goalscorer than Wayne Gretzky (..who was really?) - but he was an absolutely prolific goalscorer in his own right. He was basically in his prime throughout his entire career but his three year run between the 1980-81 season to 1982-83 season was absolutely outstanding. He scored 243G in 294gp (regular season and playoffs) during this period.

He is likely a top 5 goalscorer along with Gretzky, Lemieux and the Hulls.

I feel Ovie would have been Bossy in the 80's in terms of production. But a healthy Bossy. So he would have lost to Wayne in Wayne's prime prime years, but then won heaps of Rockets after that. This is of course pure speculation based on a vague concept of "talent".

For me it's something like:

Gretzky = Highest peak and holds the records, so he actually did it (the guy I'd pick if my team needed a goal)

Ovie = Longevity in dominating over peers, and best "pure" goalscorer. Has the Rockets.

Lemieux = Best goal scorer overall due to versatility. (the guy I'd pick if my chosen player is the only one allowed to score said goal)

Tough choice. But in my book, Ovie is below the others.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I feel Ovie would have been Bossy in the 80's in terms of production. But a healthy Bossy.

The stats I posted a few posts above shed some light on this assertion.

Here's a select few:

Ovechkin led the NHL in goals 9 times. Bossy 2.

Ovechkin has 11 adjusted 50 goal seasons. Bossy 2.

Ovechkin's adjusted GPG is .69. Bossy's is .61, except Ovechkin sustained it for 15 seasons through age 34 whereas for Bossy it was 10 seasons through age 30. So not only was Ovechkin significantly better, he was significantly better for significantly longer.

Ovechkin's peak adjusted season is 72 goals. Bossy's is 58.

Nevermind that Bossy never won a Hart or a Pearson/Lindsay whereas Ovechkin won each of them 3 times. And no, it's not because of Gretzky because Bossy was never in second place either despite playing on a dynasty.