Why is it inconceivable for Matthews to be McDavid's equal?

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

Read the thread for entertainment during a slow work day, was not disappointed.

I've never seen such a long discussion about how its possible for player X to eventually be as good as player Y.

Its not inconceivable for Leon Draisaitl to be better than Matthews.

Its not inconceivable for Mark Scheifele to put up 100 points next year since hes improved his point total every year since hes been in the league.

I find it highly highly improbable than Matthews is ever in the same discussion as McDavid.

 

[Mattilaus]

I think the world of Nylander, but he wasn't Matthews most common linemate by a long shot. That was Zach Hyman, and I don't need to get into that mess. Nylander and Brown more or less split the difference after that. Willy is great, but still a rookie. He didn't really start to heat up until the second half... Because he was a rookie figuring out the NHL like any other rookie does. Not sure what's so confusing about it.

Really? You, yourself voted that Nylander IS a Franchise Forward......

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=145699

And now when it suits you he was slow for the first half of the season, is only a rookie...etc. etc.

As for Matthews playing with Brown rather than Nylander? Well according to the large swath of leaf fans who voted in this poll he is better than Jake Guentzel and I don't think any Pens fans are blaming him for lack of production of his linemates.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2196901

 

[TIGERCOOL]

Really? You, yourself voted that Nylander IS a Franchise Forward......

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=145699

And now when it suits you he was slow for the first half of the season, is only a rookie...etc. etc.

As for Matthews playing with Brown rather than Nylander? Well according to the large swath of leaf fans who voted in this poll he is better than Jake Guentzel and I don't think any Pens fans are blaming him for lack of production of his linemates.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2196901

First of all.. thank you for comparing Matthews to Crosby. Apparently you believe he should have the same ability to carry a third line rookie as a generational 10 year veteran center.

Second of all, thank you for taking such an interest in my perspective as to dig into my poll voting on this website.
That's not a weird thing to do at all.

It's too bad you went through all that effort and didn't bother to read my qualifying post in that thread:

"I don't think the term "franchise player" is adequately qualified in the OP... But he has definitely shown himself to be capable of being a much more dynamic player than he was drafted as, which was "the most offensively skilled guy in the draft" - according to McKenzie and many others. Sounds like he could be flirting with franchise to me"

Yes, I believe Nylander has potential to be a franchise player. Even franchise players go through growing pains in their rookie seasons. That was a long walk for a short ****.

And to the guy above... Yes, I find McDavids ppg on his rookie season very impressive. I find Matthews 40 goals in his rookie season centering two other rookies comparively impressive. So... Shoot me? If McDavid had done it over a full 82 games with 30 goals I would have obviously given him a firm edge.

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Love this thread. It reminds of 93 when Toronto fans and media were saying that Gilmour was in the same tier as Gretzky.

Yeah the year that Gilmour won the Selke while scoring 127 points (more than any other Selke winner ever) and Gretzky would circle around at center ice whenever the puck was in his own end?

 

[Leafer34]

Matthews is less dependent on linemates to score and get him points than McDavid is. Also McDavid needs stat padding empty netters

 

[Soundwave]

Matthews is less dependent on linemates to score and get him points than McDavid is. Also McDavid needs stat padding empty netters

lol, actually McDavid does not gun for empty nets. In fact, Gretzky gave him an earful for not trying to get more points when the net is empty.

If Matthews is on the same tier ... there's a simple way to prove it. He will win the Art Ross + Hart this coming season.

Crosby did it in his 2nd year, so did McDavid. If Matthews is in the same tier, he should do the same.

Easy peasy.

 

[authentic]

lol, actually McDavid does not gun for empty nets. In fact, Gretzky gave him an earful for not trying to get more points when the net is empty.

If Matthews is on the same tier ... there's a simple way to prove it. He will win the Art Ross + Hart this coming season.

Crosby did it in his 2nd year, so did McDavid. If Matthews is in the same tier, he should do the same.

Easy peasy.

He won't but he might win the Rocket and finish top 5 in points.

 

[OilCanada92]

Matthews is less dependent on linemates to score and get him points than McDavid is. Also McDavid needs stat padding empty netters

This is true. A little known fact but McDavid had 32 empty net points this season. That's the difference between his totals and Matthews'.

 

[metalan2]

No, it's nothing like it.

McDavid scored 100 points as a 2nd year player.

Matthews scored 40 goals as a rookie.

Both of these players are going to be offensive machines. Toews is a brilliant leader with an elite 200 foot game and intangibles. But his offense is only good-to-very-good; it's not world class.

If anything, Matthews is more comparable to Crosby is style than McDavid is. McDavid is more like a faster, (hopefully) healthier Malkin in style.

I think there's a good chance McDavid edges Matthews in overall points 7 out of 10 years but Matthews scores more goals, 7-10. At their best, if McDavid is scoring 108-112 points, Matthews could be scoring 98-102.

McDavid is more explosive and dynamic. He also makes the players around him better. Matthews has a better shot, release, and is a stronger, more tenacious centerman. He's also better in the corners.

All in all, McDavid is the better player (an Art Ross and Hart Trophy at his young age are all the proof you need) but Matthews isn't far behind and can close the gap even more as they mature.

Barring injury, McDavid will score more points than Matthews every single year they are in the league.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

Barring injury, McDavid will score more points than Matthews every single year they are in the league.

I think that's reasonable. I do like that Matthews is built for playoff hockey though. He's so good in tight spaces, maybe already the second best in the league in that area next to Crosby. McDavids speed through the neutral zone gets shut down in the playoffs. I mean, he only needs one opportunity to burn you, but those come by far less frequently. It's the one major factor Matthews has over McDavid besides goalscoring.

 

[supeg93*]

I think that's reasonable. I do like that Matthews is built for playoff hockey though. He's so good in tight spaces, maybe already the second best in the league in that area next to Crosby. McDavids speed through the neutral zone gets shut down in the playoffs. I mean, he only needs one opportunity to burn you, but those come by far less frequently. It's the one major factor Matthews has over McDavid besides goalscoring.

How is he built for Playoffs? His goals he scored this year were pretty garbage/lucky.

McDavid was shut down because whole lines were set up against him, with players double covering him and shadowing him the whole game. Letting players like Leon cash in.

Did you watch any other series?

 

[TIGERCOOL]

How is he built for Playoffs? His goals he scored this year were pretty garbage/lucky.

McDavid was shut down because whole lines were set up against him, with players double covering him and shadowing him the whole game. Letting players like Leon cash in.

Did you watch any other series?

Matthews was absolutely gameplanned and double covered in the playoffs as well. "Garbage" goals are exactly the kind of goals you need to score in the playoffs, and the greats know that they count all the same. I'm guess we're in agreement then.

I watched every game I had time to watch and saw at least a game from every series. I.watched most of the oilers games. McDavid didn't really seem to make the adjustments to be as effective as he can be offensively, but he definitely played a strong 2-way game. Of course he opened up room for Draisaitl, as all franchise players do for their teammates.

Either way you cut it, Matthews had 4 goals and 5 points in 6 games as a rookie in the playoffs against the presidents trophy Winners. Doesn't matter how he scored, he found a way through insanely tight coverage.

 

[supeg93*]

Matthews was absolutely gameplanned and double covered in the playoffs as well. "Garbage" goals are exactly the kind of goals you need to score in the playoffs, and the greats know that they count all the same. I'm guess we're in agreement then.

I watched every game I had time to watch and saw at least a game from every series. I.watched most of the oilers games. McDavid didn't really seem to make the adjustments to be as effective as he can be offensively, but he definitely played a strong 2-way game. Of course he opened up room for Draisaitl, as all franchise players do for their teammates.

Either way you cut it, Matthews had 4 goals and 5 points in 6 games as a rookie in the playoffs against the presidents trophy Winners. Doesn't matter how he scored, he found a way through insanely tight coverage.

"Matthews was absolutely gameplanned and double covered in the playoffs as well."

Lol, ok we are done here.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

"Matthews was absolutely gameplanned and double covered in the playoffs as well."

Lol, ok we are done here.

Uh... Did you watch any series other than the oilers? Have you watched any Leafs game from the second half of the year? Defenders didn't even bother covering Hyman, they just loaded up on Matthews and Nylander. You think you don't gameplan a 40 goal scorer? Jesus dude... Give your head a shake.

 

[supeg93*]

Uh... Did you watch any series other than the oilers? Have you watched any Leafs game from the second half of the year? Defenders didn't even bother covering Hyman, they just loaded up on Matthews and Nylander. You think you don't gameplan a 40 goal scorer? Jesus dude... Give your head a shake.

Watched every single game of that series.

His zone starts and Competition is among the easiest in the NHL (Which is 100% he is a Rookie)

 

[TIGERCOOL]

Watched every single game of that series.

His zone starts and Competition is among the easiest in the NHL (Which is 100% he is a Rookie)

His offensive zone starts are at about 60% and his quality of competition was among the toughest on the team since December. You've effectively demonstrated that you have no idea what you're talking about. You can take a break now.

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

Why is it inconceivable for Matthews to NOT be in the same tier as McDavid to this very vocal (hopefully minority) sect of Leafs Nation?

What has he done to put himself there? Honest question.

Excellent question. One that will be ignored or danced around I'm sure.

 

[supeg93*]

His offensive zone starts are at about 60% and his quality of competition was among the toughest on the team since December. You've effectively demonstrated that you have no idea what you're talking about. You can take a break now.

Wrong

His Offensive Zone starts are 40.68 highest on the team
The only lower players on the Leafs playing worse competition is Boyle and Martin.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

Wrong

His Offensive Zone starts are 40.68 highest on the team
The only lower players on the Leafs playing worse competition is Boyle and Martin.

Do you have sources on your QoC claim?

 

[supeg93*]

Do you have sources on your QoC claim?

https://puckalytics.com

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

in this thread I have learned that Matthews had a worse playoff, is not as good a goal scorer and is worse defensively than McDavid, lol.

 

[supeg93*]

in this thread I have learned that Matthews had a worse playoff, is not as good a goal scorer and is worse defensively than McDavid, lol.

Who said he had a Worse Playoff or is as good a Goal Scorer?

McDavid is far ahead defensively though.

 

[Quiet Jack]

in this thread I have learned that Matthews had a worse playoff, is not as good a goal scorer and is worse defensively than McDavid, lol.

What part of this thread said Matthews had a worse playoff and is not as good a goal scorer as McDavid? ???

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

The correct answer is it is entirely possible. Translate that into Oilernese "Laine is better than McDavid! "

Laine, Eichel and Matthews could all potentially rival McDavid. It's unlikely, but it is possible. Translate that to Oilernese "All three are the best player in the league and are all better than McDavid."

It took me awhile to get the language down but I've got it now.

For a guy who throws a fit when people lump the Leafs fan base all in one group, you seem to do that an awful lot with the Oilers.

 

[UnrefinedCrude]

For a guy who throws a fit when people lump the Leafs fan base all in one group, you seem to do that an awful lot with the Oilers.

He does that because he doesn't have a valid argument to support his point.