Why is Auston Matthews considered a top 10 player?

[Paradoc]

When was that?

Leafs are good but not elite in any way, shape or form.

They have elite offense and Freddy is putting up some elite numbers behind below average dman.

 

[BruinLVGA]

correct Matthews >> Marchand.

Literally the only best possession stat Matthews has is offensive zone starts this year. SIX different categories for both players and TWO seasons, Matthews is ahead in ONE of TWELVE...

 

[rent free]

So, back to Oompa Loompas rule #1: “In Toronto, goals >>> goals AND assists”. Hence for example Matthews 69 points season in 16-17 >>> McDavid’s 100 points. Great logic!
And by the way, even for pure goals, Marchand has 54, while Matthews 57 (while having played 3 more games...), it’s not even a major difference. 17 points is a little bit bigger than 3 goals...

Possession stats? Why not.

16-17 & 17-18...
Corsi: Marchand 60.7 & 56.8...Matthews 52.2 & 51.4
Corsi Rel: Marchand 8.5 & 5.5 ... Matthews 2.3 & 1.5
Fenwick: Marchand 60.8 & 54.9... Matthews 51.7 & 50.4
FF Rel: Marchand 7.8 & 2.5... Matthews 2.6 & 1.5
PDO: Marchand 98.2 & 105... Matthews 99.9 & 106.1
Ozs: Marchand 54.8 & 56.7... Matthews 63.0 & 48.4

And don’t go there about two way game... it’s a known fact that Marchand is a monster in that (last year he was 12th in Selke voting. Matthews 38th)... He is 47th ALL TIME in short handed goals, by the way.

Marchand is better than Matthews. All numbers put together confirm it.

matthews plays with hyman, who needs the heimlich, and nylander who is on and off. marchand plays with bergeron and pasta. easily marchand has better linemates than matthews. bergeron tilts the ice in possession so obviously marchand would have higher possession numbers. also, shorthanded goals is not a defensive stat. its an offensive stat. however i do believe marchand is better than matthews defensively, but not overall. marchand imo is a guy who gets a lot of points and plays great defense, but he isn't a game breaker like matthews and the puck doesn't follow him like it does with matthews. another thing. selke voting isn't the best way to determine who is better defensively. you have to have quite a bit of points to be nominated for the selke. in 2013 ilya kovlachcuck was 38th in selke voting and he was a -6 that season.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

So, back to Oompa Loompas rule #1: “In Toronto, goals >>> goals AND assists”. Hence for example Matthews 69 points season in 16-17 >>> McDavid’s 100 points. Great logic!
And by the way, even for pure goals, Marchand has 54, while Matthews 57 (while having played 3 more games...), it’s not even a major difference. 17 points is a little bit bigger than 3 goals...

Possession stats? Why not.

16-17 & 17-18...
Corsi: Marchand 60.7 & 56.8...Matthews 52.2 & 51.4
Corsi Rel: Marchand 8.5 & 5.5 ... Matthews 2.3 & 1.5
Fenwick: Marchand 60.8 & 54.9... Matthews 51.7 & 50.4
FF Rel: Marchand 7.8 & 2.5... Matthews 2.6 & 1.5
PDO: Marchand 98.2 & 105... Matthews 99.9 & 106.1
Ozs: Marchand 54.8 & 56.7... Matthews 63.0 & 48.4

And don’t go there about two way game... it’s a known fact that Marchand is a monster in that (last year he was 12th in Selke voting. Matthews 38th)... He is 47th ALL TIME in short handed goals, by the way.

Marchand is better than Matthews. All numbers put together confirm it.

I hate to admit it, but Marchand has a real good case for being better than Matthews. and that's not a slight against Matthews, Marchand is just that good. At ES I'd call them about even with a slight edge to Matthews, but Marchand is obviously a lot better on the PP + PK

 

[BruinLVGA]

I asked for a lot of things. not just one thinf.

Go get stats that say Matthews is better. All numbers I posted says Marchand is significantly better.

 

[BruinLVGA]

matthews plays with hyman, who needs the heimlich, and nylander who is on and off. marchand plays with bergeron and pasta. easily marchand has better linemates than matthews. bergeron tilts the ice in possession so obviously marchand would have higher possession numbers. also, shorthanded goals is not a defensive stat. its an offensive stat. however i do believe marchand is better than matthews defensively, but not overall. marchand imo is a guy who gets a lot of points and plays great defense, but he isn't a game breaker like matthews and the puck doesn't follow him like it does with matthews. another thing. selke voting isn't the best way to determine who is better defensively. you have to have quite a bit of points to be nominated for the selke. in 2013 ilya kovlachcuck was 38th in selke voting and he was a -6 that season.

Simply put, I heard this possession over and over and I took a look and Marchand HAS way better numbers there too.
And to be frank, saying that Marchand isn’t a game breaker... please, come on...

 

[BruinLVGA]

why the hell are we even arguing? I've been a fan of the Bruins since the bam bam cam days (leafs fan first), and we are the 2nd and 3rd best teams in the conference.

Hey ok, sure. You can have a lot of pride in Matthews - great player, can only get even better - and how you turned around the team in the past one and a half season.
But don’t discount someone like Marchand, because the guy is no shredded tripe.

 

[GodEmperor]

God that sig is annoying (takes up like 70% of your post), even more annoying you don't know how to multi quote.

 

[Paradoc]

And Marchand is one of the best defensive wingers in the league AND he puts up more points and has a better PPG than Matthews.

I also note that you asked for possession stats, but decided to ignore them when I posted them, as they don’t fit your agenda.

Auston Matthews has a higher P/60 and P1/60 than Marchand. Also, not discrediting Marchand, but if he has the best possession stats in the game then couldn't you make an argument, using your logic of possession stats, that he's better than Kucherov, Stamkos, etc?

 

[Lebanese Leaf]

You have an argument with most of those guys but GTFOH with Blake Wheeler on your list. And what has Gaudreau shown to be ahead of Matthews?

 

[Steve]

Why is Auston Matthews considered a top-ten, even top-five player already? Obviously he had an incredible rookie season, but having him rated above guys like Stamkos, Schiefele, etc is unjustified imo. I will name all the forwards I think are better than him.

(In no order)

McDavid
Stamkos
Kucherov
Crosby
Malkin
Ovechkin
Tarasenko
Tavares
Benn
Backstrom
Kane
Gaudreau
Schiefele
Wheeler

Just of the top of my head. In the future Matthews could pass most of these guys, but why is he already considered so great? Toronto Bias?

IMO, the fact that he was so hyped before the draft, he plays in a massive market and the complete game at a young age elevates his stature. IMO he’s a great player and could possibly be in that group but he’s still got a much higher ceiling than he’s currently at. He’s not top-10 yet IMO but for his age he’s got very few weaknesses and many strengths.

 

[Frosty415]

You have an argument with most of those guys but GTFOH with Blake Wheeler on your list. And what has Gaudreau shown to be ahead of Matthews?

How does wheeler get underrated so much?

He's had multiple 70 point seasons and has been extremely consistent, he's playing well this year he's in the top of the leaderboards with 45 points. (tied with McJesus)

He's had more success than matthews right now, so I can see why people would list him.

Matthews is younger and does have a better upside, but to discredit wheeler is absolutely silly or you really don't follow other teams.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Auston Matthews has a higher P/60 and P1/60 than Marchand. Also, not discrediting Marchand, but if he has the best possession stats in the game then couldn't you make an argument, using your logic of possession stats, that he's better than Kucherov, Stamkos, etc?

I am not a fan of P/60. It can be easily skewed pretty badly. A couple of weeks ago (= of course now it must have changed), I remember reading that Hischier had a P/60 of 2.73, while McDavid had a P/60 of 2.72 in his rookie year. No one in the universe would ever say that Hischier > McDavid for that.

Re possession stats... I have no particular logic, nor do I care much about possession insofar as dissecting the nuances of it. I prefer the eye test for stuff like this. At the end of the day, my #1 thing for forwards is simply points while not being a defensive liability at the same time. Very old school, but that’s me.
Again, possession was mentioned several times by OTHERS as a strong point showing a supposed Matthews superiority over Marchand. I simply decided to look into it to see if it held true, and lo and behold it showed exactly the opposite (= Marchand has significantly better possession numbers than Matthews). That’s all.

 

[Jozay]

He's top 2 and he's not 2

 

[Muston Atthews]

Let me know when Matthews doesn't get hammered out in the 1st round bud. His first season is looking more like a fluke than the norm.

Can a player really be generational if his team doesn’t make the playoffs? Has that happened before other than rookie seasons?

A: 109 games, 117 points... 32 points in 29 games in 17-18

B: 112 games, 100 points... 31 points in 30 games in 17-18

Who is better, A or B? Thought so.

Whichever one is Matthews

 

[Frenchy]

Ok guys ,the mods had to delete a few comments. Play nice or we'll have the close the thread

 

[snipes]

Can a player really be generational if his team doesn’t make the playoffs? Has that happened before other than rookie seasons?



Whichever one is Matthews

See: Mario Lemieux

 

[Festinator]

You have an argument with most of those guys but GTFOH with Blake Wheeler on your list. And what has Gaudreau shown to be ahead of Matthews?

Is being a top 3 RW in the league the past 4-5 seasons some sort of plug status?

 

[IPS]

Is being a top 3 RW in the league the past 4-5 seasons some sort of plug status?

Blake Wheeler is an awesome player no doubt. You don't think he's better than Matthews right now though do you?

 

[PlietscherDassel]

He has been exactly what we needed. A first line center that is great with and without the puck. Does it matter where a player ranks, if he improves a team as much as Matthews does?

 

[joe dirte]

Hey ok, sure. You can have a lot of pride in Matthews - great player, can only get even better - and how you turned around the team in the past one and a half season.
But don’t discount someone like Marchand, because the guy is no shredded tripe.

never said he was tripe. he's just not auston matthews.

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

I would not trade Matthews for a single player on that list going forward, including McDavid.

That's nice but the Oilers would hang up the phone and die from hysterical laughter if the Leafs ever tried spinning a Matthews for McDavid swap straight up.

[MOD]

 

[heretik27]

You have an argument with most of those guys but GTFOH with Blake Wheeler on your list. And what has Gaudreau shown to be ahead of Matthews?

Wheeler's a top 10 point producer over the last 5 seasons on a team that's had relatively little PP success and team success until this season. Where is your objective argument for Matthews being better than Wheeler right now? The only thing Matthews does objectively better is put the puck in the net, and there's a whole lot more to the game of hockey than that. This isn't to say Matthews isn't a great player, but I believe some fans have really put the cart before the horse in this discussion.

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

Can a player really be generational if his team doesn’t make the playoffs? Has that happened before other than rookie seasons?

Its happened before. One player doesn't make a team obviously. Can a player be generational that's never had better than a 20th place finish in scoring and sits in 50+ place half way though their 2nd season?

 

[Muston Atthews]

Its happened before. One player doesn't make a team obviously. Can a player be generational that's never had better than a 20th place finish in scoring and sits in 50+ place half way though their 2nd season?

I’m not sure but I’d rather my team make the playoffs than sitting around measuring stick sizes over individual players. You’re obviously the generational expert so I’m sure You’ll let everyone know