Why did Quebec not get a team?

[Essenege]

2 million ppl including the surrounding area is nothing. Utah has over 3 million not including the surrounding area.

Toronto has 2.6 million people. The gta is closer to 10 million ppl.

The jets are one of the least profitable teams in the league. The only good team that makes less $ is the panthers. The other teams that made less than them are: Buffalo, San Jose, Ottawa( another small market Canadian team), Arizona(obviously), and Columbus.

It’s a “bad take.” According to you’re economic expertise.

Atlanta to Winnipeg move probably saved 200 millions of losses in 10 years, that would have ultimately cost the teams via revenue sharing. I don’t think any owner complained.

my point isn’t that it would be a market like Toronto or Montreal. Just that it could be a breakeven operation like Winnipeg , with an added benefit of helping the Canadian tv deal (the real money maker ) with more Canadian games.

 

[HockeyScotty]

Personally, I'd like to see a new version of the IHL form.

North American Conference
Canadian Division
Quebec City
Hamilton
Saskatoon
Halifax

American Division
Hartford
Baltimore
Milwaukee
Cleveland or Indianapolis

European Conference
Northern Division
Stockholm, Sweden
Helsinki, Finland
Copenhagen, Denmark/Malmo, Sweden (combined market)
Riga, Latvia or Oslo, Norway

Southern Division
Prague, Czechia
Vienna, Austria/Bratislava, Slovakia (combined market)
Munich, Germany
Zurich, Switzerland or Milan, Italy

 

[HockeyScotty]

Atlanta to Winnipeg move probably saved 200 millions of losses in 10 years, that would have ultimately cost the teams via revenue sharing. I don’t think any owner complained.

my point isn’t that it would be a market like Toronto or Montreal. Just that it could be a breakeven operation like Winnipeg , with an added benefit of helping the Canadian tv deal (the real money maker ) with more Canadian games.

The details that I would like to see (that the NHL already knows in full detail) made public is the TV ratings currently in a market like Quebec City and what their advertising revenues are from those broadcast partners.

Yes, I believe that Quebec City would have a passionate fanbase in game day attendance and I appreciate the posts about disposable income which makes it look more appealing than the other smallest market: Winnipeg where we have seen ticket sales drop due to some economic and marketing issues.

What the conversation should be about is to what degree would their be an INCREMENTAL increase to the NHL revenue picture from the broadcast rights to have a team in that direct market versus the status quo and what the market for corporate sponsorship would look like; as compared to entering a new larger US market like Atlanta, Houston, etc.

So if the current greater Quebec City market (Capitale-Nationale region) has population of 757,950 or 839,311 using the Quebec Metropolitan Community definition (2021 census; used by Radio CBS website) and their TV Ratings are 30% x 800k = 240,000 viewers per game. If an NHL team moved that to 50% = 400,000; a 160,000 gain to the NHL broadcast package.

A new market like Atlanta might only get a 1% rating today but it's a 6,000,000 market so that is 60,000 viewers. A new team there might bump that up to 5% so that would be 300,000 viewers a gain of 240,000 new viewers. Then you factor in corporate sponsorships and USD$ vs CD$ and a merchandising market of 6,000,000 vs 800,000 and it quickly shows that IF DONE RIGHT; the larger markets like Atlanta, Houston, and Phoenix will be primary.

The 4th team is where things probably get a lot more nit-picky on numbers/projections and incremental impact.

Would a 2nd team in Greater Toronto Area be more beneficial, what about a 2nd team in the Chicago-Milwaukee market? The next largest standalone markets: San Diego, Portland, Baltimore, or return to Hartford? Go to mid-sized cities in the midwest that have a larger cachement area: Kansas City or Indianapolis.

Compared to the incremental increase in Quebec City that is when it will get interesting.

 

[RooBicks]

Quebec is given opportunities to show they want a team every year during the preseason and they draw under 10k most of the time.


As @Shwag33 said, not enough corporate money, etc. plenty of reasons Quebec keeps getting left out.

Quebec regularly draws more than that to watch local Pee Wee teams play in Le Colisee every February. They can support an NHL team, comfortably, that's not the issue.

 

[Salsero1]

Quebec regularly draws more than that to watch local Pee Wee teams play in Le Colisee every February. They can support an NHL team, comfortably, that's not the issue.

How many dates are those pee wee games on, what type of production values do those games have, how much does it cost to ice a pee wee team, and how much are the tickets?

 

[KCC]

Quebec regularly draws more than that to watch local Pee Wee teams play in Le Colisee every February. They can support an NHL team, comfortably, that's not the issue.

It’s pee wee. It’s probably like 5 bucks for tickets or free. Lol

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Atlanta to Winnipeg move probably saved 200 millions of losses in 10 years, that would have ultimately cost the teams via revenue sharing. I don’t think any owner complained.

my point isn’t that it would be a market like Toronto or Montreal. Just that it could be a breakeven operation like Winnipeg , with an added benefit of helping the Canadian tv deal (the real money maker ) with more Canadian games.

If the NHL did what they did for the Oilers, Coyotes etc for years, made a new owner keep the team in Atlanta vs allowing them to move asap, we'd see a different story.

Jets have shit attendance and aren't a bottom team. Atlanta had attendance, just awful owners. Huge difference in that situation. Bettman screwed Atlanta to bring the Jets back and the Jets barely have the attendance the Thrashers had their last few years whole being a better team in Canada because of hands off owners that weren't sabotaging the team.

I'd rather see Atlanta get a team than another Canadian one. For that bullshit they pulled on Atlanta, it's owed.

 

[Essenege]

If the NHL did what they did for the Oilers, Coyotes etc for years, made a new owner keep the team in Atlanta vs allowing them to move asap, we'd see a different story.

Jets have shit attendance and aren't a bottom team. Atlanta had attendance, just awful owners. Huge difference in that situation. Bettman screwed Atlanta to bring the Jets back and the Jets barely have the attendance the Thrashers had their last few years whole being a better team in Canada because of hands off owners that weren't sabotaging the team.

I'd rather see Atlanta get a team than another Canadian one. For that bullshit they pulled on Atlanta, it's owed.

Preferring an NHL team in Atlanta versus Quebec is like saying Montreal would be a better NFL market then Kansas City, Indianapolis and Green Bay

 

[crowi]

Preferring an NHL team in Atlanta versus Quebec is like saying Montreal would be a better NFL market then Kansas City, Indianapolis and Green Bay

Yet again, SIZE OF MARKET and MONEY is what matters. If Quebec has a group or individual ready to pay around $1.5B-2.0B, they may get a team. If not, then they don't.

 

[Tawnos]

Preferring an NHL team in Atlanta versus Quebec is like saying Montreal would be a better NFL market then Kansas City, Indianapolis and Green Bay

Nah, a closer comparison to reality would be like saying "Montreal would be a better NFL market than El Paso, Baton Rouge, or Knoxville." And guess what? Montreal *would* be a better NFL market than places like that.

 

[Essenege]

Yet again, SIZE OF MARKET and MONEY is what matters. If Quebec has a group or individual ready to pay around $1.5B-2.0B, they may get a team. If not, then they don't.

The south teams are the tiniest of tiny markets for NHL hockey. Go take a look at US viewership numbers in 2023 finals, then go look at Canadian numbers in 2021 and 2024.

When you have 50 fans for your Stanley Cup parade, you’re a tiny market.

Unfortunately, Quebec and Canada lacks the billionaire class of the US, so you’re right on that point. It won’t happen but as a fan, it should have, 10 years ago.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

Taxes and having to speak French wouldn’t go over well with modern day prima Donna pro athletes. Shame would be awesome.

 

[DaPhazz]

Nah, a closer comparison to reality would be like saying "Montreal would be a better NFL market than El Paso, Baton Rouge, or Knoxville." And guess what? Montreal *would* be a better NFL market than places like that.

Nah, his first comparison didn't need any correction

 

[Essenege]

Nah, a closer comparison to reality would be like saying "Montreal would be a better NFL market than El Paso, Baton Rouge, or Knoxville." And guess what? Montreal *would* be a better NFL market than places like that.

Was just talking as a fan of the game. Atlanta have 0 hockey soul. We have enough of those

 

[Hobnobs]

The south teams are the tiniest of tiny markets for NHL hockey. Go take a look at US viewership numbers in 2023 finals, then go look at Canadian numbers in 2021 and 2024.

When you have 50 fans for your Stanley Cup parade, you’re a tiny market.

Unfortunately, Quebec and Canada lacks the billionaire class of the US, so you’re right on that point. It won’t happen but as a fan, it should have, 10 years ago.

Jets has a lower average attendance than their terrible predecessor in Atlanta had in all their years. So no, Canada as a whole doesnt automatically support a team more than a "southern team".

Quebec is a better hockey city, sure but it's not bigger in size or in dollars which is what counts.

 

[Master P]

Canada can't support another NHL team.

 

[Essenege]

Jets has a lower average attendance than their terrible predecessor in Atlanta had in all their years. So no, Canada as a whole doesnt automatically support a team more than a "southern team".

Quebec is a better hockey city, sure but it's not bigger in size or in dollars which is what counts.

Jets have a smaller rink and tickets are more expensive.

The Jets never lost money despite spending to the cap.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7171250

The Trashers lost 130M USD in their last 6 years of operation and if I remember correctly, they weren’t spending to the cap.

 

[Hobnobs]

Jets have a smaller rink and tickets are more expensive.

The Jets never lost money despite spending to the cap.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7171250

The Trashers lost 130M USD in their last 6 years of operation and if I remember correctly, they weren’t spending to the cap.

How much have Jets lost on hockey operations alone? Because thats the number you are giving for the Thrashers. And as the article alludes to, Jets have lost money on Hockey ops but kept afloat by other business.

Now you are comparing teriible incompetent owners vs competent ones. Not the argument that was discussed.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

The south teams are the tiniest of tiny markets for NHL hockey. Go take a look at US viewership numbers in 2023 finals, then go look at Canadian numbers in 2021 and 2024.

When you have 50 fans for your Stanley Cup parade, you’re a tiny market.

Unfortunately, Quebec and Canada lacks the billionaire class of the US, so you’re right on that point. It won’t happen but as a fan, it should have, 10 years ago.

The bigger reason why it won't happen is because the NHL has repeatedly said they are looking to grow the game of hockey. The Atlanta metro area is 6.3 million people. Houston metro is over 7 million. Put a team in either location, and there is a lot of untapped potential to attract new fans to the game. Where can you put a team in Canada that has that kind of growth potential, and wouldn't simply be existing NHL fans rooting for a new team?

 

[RooBicks]

It’s pee wee. It’s probably like 5 bucks for tickets or free. Lol

Correct. The point was that the place breathes hockey. There's not another city on earth that has the tradition running that deep. And to the other poster: I was responding to someone who claimed that low attendance at a couple of exhibition games was a sign that they wouldn't draw.

They would draw fans, extraordinarily passionate ones, and if there are issues, that's not one of them.

 

[voyageur]

The bigger reason why it won't happen is because the NHL has repeatedly said they are looking to grow the game of hockey. The Atlanta metro area is 6.3 million people. Houston metro is over 7 million. Put a team in either location, and there is a lot of untapped potential to attract new fans to the game. Where can you put a team in Canada that has that kind of growth potential, and wouldn't simply be existing NHL fans rooting for a new team?

Don't forget that Jeremy Jacobs vetoed the Nordiques to get in back in 1979. That's one vote against. Canadiens vote is heavily influenced by bribes/indemnity, not uncommon for the Montreal region, politically.

There may be other owners who don't have any interest in QC, some of whom have something to gain from expansion (beyond Jacobs, Anschultz have some sway in American arena management rights).

Atlanta gets a team with a rink. Doesn't look good on Bettman moving a team from Atlanta to Winnipeg, and having them struggle now to fill their rink. Arizona is a market the league fought for. If an NBA owner expresses interest in the market, I think that gets the league's attention.

I think Hamilton would get the next Canadian team before Quebec, just based on demographics, and earning potential.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

it was in the second post of this thread.

NO it wasn't. Not talking about ownership. Talkng about corporate supoprt - boxes, advertising etc. There are no big corporation head offices in Montreal, never mind Quebec City.

 

[MessierII]

Don't forget that Jeremy Jacobs vetoed the Nordiques to get in back in 1979. That's one vote against. Canadiens vote is heavily influenced by bribes/indemnity, not uncommon for the Montreal region, politically.

There may be other owners who don't have any interest in QC, some of whom have something to gain from expansion (beyond Jacobs, Anschultz have some sway in American arena management rights).

Atlanta gets a team with a rink. Doesn't look good on Bettman moving a team from Atlanta to Winnipeg, and having them struggle now to fill their rink. Arizona is a market the league fought for. If an NBA owner expresses interest in the market, I think that gets the league's attention.

I think Hamilton would get the next Canadian team before Quebec, just based on demographics, and earning potential.

Hamilton will never happen because of the Leafs

 

[Crescent Street]

Is this not any more complicated than the simple math of the USD being valued more than the Canadian dollar?

 

[voyageur]

Hamilton will never happen because of the Leafs

I feel like Rogers takeover of Maple Leafs will leave Bell looking for a team now, and that's about as amicable as the two cable giants will split here in Canada. Bell could take a bigger share in Montreal, conceivably, but Southern Ontario without a doubt has the potential to support 2 NHL franchises, and give a little bit extra to Buffalo for being in their region, so to speak.