Who should be in the 2024 HHoF class?

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Marleau is a compiler in the most derogatory sense of the word. I’ve always been a fan of a small inclusive HOF, but that’s just my fantasy. With that said, I can respect someone like Gartner being in. He was a compiler but there was some oomph to that compiling. Marleau, not so much. In my idealized HOF he’s not in
 
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There are players that teams should honor and remember, retire jerseys and have ceremonies, .. players that the other 31 fan bases could forget, don't need Hall induction: Shane Doan, Milan Hejduk, Trevor Linden, Patrik Elias, Patrick Marleau.
 
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I'm not following the HHOF very closely, so I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of old-timers that aren't in but should.
 
Bernie Nicholls needs to be in the HOF no reason why he shouldn’t be
There's certainly a case to be made for him, but even as one of his biggest fans I can think of reasons why he shouldn't be in:
-- In his prime and peak years, he was VERY offence-only. He took face-offs of course, and he could hit to hurt people on rare occasions, but essentially he was one-dimensional. Like, he made Gretzky or Lemieux look like Guy Carbonneau. (This obviously changed later in Jersey, but by then he's passing his best days.)
-- He's not associated with any big winners. He came close with Jersey in '94, but... no cigar.
-- He rarely even played for strong regular season clubs. The Kings finished 2nd in 1989, Rangers 2nd in 1991 (but mediocre club), Jersey 2nd in 1994, and the Hawks 2nd in 1996. Among these barely four good clubs in Nicholls' 16 or 17 seasons, only Jersey in 1994 was a really good team --- and he played only 61 games for them and was sixth in team scoring.

So, yeah, I mean on talent Nicholls is a Hall of Famer. Looking at peak seasons (basically 1988-89 and 1989-90), he is also a Hall of Famer. But in the overall picture, he's kind of borderline. And with the borderline guys, it's usually how well remembered the players' prime period is that sways yay or nay to the Hall of Fame. In Nicholls' case, not a lot of people remember his salad years as his teams weren't going anywhere.
 
I certainly don't condone Marleau in the Hall but he did have sixteen (16) GWGs in the playoffs through his career (97/98-20/21), only behind Chris Drury who had seventeen (very impressive for a player of his stature and career length I have to say). Not sure about Marleau "mailing it in" in light of that.


Drury as we know has no shot to get in. I do like the fact he scored some game winners, but no one is advocating for Drury. Joe Pavelski sits at 18 right now. How many people would be surprised to know that Ondrej Palat is sitting at 13? Stephane Richer had 13. Even going further up you've got Claude Lemieux who had 19. Brett Hull and Gretzky are tops with 24. So there are some names around him that don't necessarily fit as well, and who none of us consider to be HHOFers.

Marleau is 26th in playoff games with 195. And 11th for game winning goals in the playoffs. Do you think maybe it is more of a product that he was in the playoffs every year and normally went to the 2nd round that is the reason why he has 16 game winners? By percentages alone a player of his stature could get that amount. But I think it is more the fact that he did because he played in so many games. Marleau was never mistaken as a playoff warrior. He quietly was let off the hook in San Jose all of the time simply because Thornton took most of the blame. I really don't see a case for Marleau at all.
 
There's certainly a case to be made for him, but even as one of his biggest fans I can think of reasons why he shouldn't be in:
-- In his prime and peak years, he was VERY offence-only. He took face-offs of course, and he could hit to hurt people on rare occasions, but essentially he was one-dimensional. Like, he made Gretzky or Lemieux look like Guy Carbonneau. (This obviously changed later in Jersey, but by then he's passing his best days.)
-- He's not associated with any big winners. He came close with Jersey in '94, but... no cigar.
-- He rarely even played for strong regular season clubs. The Kings finished 2nd in 1989, Rangers 2nd in 1991 (but mediocre club), Jersey 2nd in 1994, and the Hawks 2nd in 1996. Among these barely four good clubs in Nicholls' 16 or 17 seasons, only Jersey in 1994 was a really good team --- and he played only 61 games for them and was sixth in team scoring.

So, yeah, I mean on talent Nicholls is a Hall of Famer. Looking at peak seasons (basically 1988-89 and 1989-90), he is also a Hall of Famer. But in the overall picture, he's kind of borderline. And with the borderline guys, it's usually how well remembered the players' prime period is that sways yay or nay to the Hall of Fame. In Nicholls' case, not a lot of people remember his salad years as his teams weren't going anywhere.
Would you say that Bernie Nicholls, is the guy you'd think of as being your cut-off guy for HOF-standards? I always perk-up a bit whenever you talk about him up in threads; meaning that it's fun to read. You've never tried to make a case as to why he should be in, but somehow through reading what you've written over the years, I actually (these days) think that he should be in.

a) He's the only teammate of Wayne Gretzky's to have registered as high as 150 points in a season.
Which should get more attention, especially in the Wayne vs Mario thread. Messier never had that kind of a season, as the 2nd line center with the Oilers playing behind Gretzky. The Oilers clearly had more depth for Messier to have kind of a season in Edmonton, in comparison to what Nicholls had to work with. If Gretzky was really in decline by that point (which I don't think that he was), how was he still able to produce at a +2 PPG pace when he's saddled with guys not named Robitaille and Nicholls as linemates 5v5? How is someone like Nicholls able to have that big of a season considering that he's brand new to playing with Gretzky?

I also wonder how many other '80s All Star types, could have slid into the 2nd line center role in that situation, and replicated what Nicholls had done. Was Nicholls a little more of a savant than he gets credit for being? I also wonder if players who are considered greater than Nicholls, like Francis (who had similar numbers up to that point), Hawerchuk, Savard, etc, would have had as great of a season as Nicholls' had.

How about '88-'89 Yzerman, playing behind Gretzky? Would he have had more or less points than he accrued with Detroit that same season? Hmmm...

Also, it took a while for Francis to adjust as the 2nd line center behind Lemieux; in the points department. I was a big Francis fan at the time - I bought a Whalers jersey with his name on it when he was already playing with the Penguins - and I don't think his '91-92 regular season was overly inspiring.

b) What if Bernie Nicholls never gets traded?

I understand the logic of the trade at the time, but... I would have loved to have seen what Nicholls could have done over the course of 5 years playing with Gretzky. I think it also hurts Nicholls career, having to move from team to team in the back half of his career. Having said that, I think his run with the Oilers, especially in the playoffs, deserves attention. He was a pretty good playoff performer over the length of his career.

I sort of have him in line with Neal Broten and Adam Oates, for improving his two-way play in his 30s. He was still pretty good in Chicago when he's in his mid-30s. He seemed to be that guy that helped Joe Murphy play to his ability.

c) He really produced playing behind other great centers, or centers who had great seasons.

Just looking at Marcel Dionne's last "great" season in '84-'85, Gretzky from '88 to parts of '90, and Jimmy Carson in '87-'88 (although I'm not sure who was considered as the #1 on that team).

I'd have to imagine that he's one of the best 2nd line centers - specifically as a point producer - in the history of the game.
 
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It's also a bit surprising that Nicholls gets no consideration for the Hart in '88-'89. yet finishes 14th in the Lady Byng category when he amassed 96 PM.
It's more accurate to say "received two votes" than "finished 14th", honestly. Behind 5th, the vote results for that award in that season don't say much about anything than the whims of a handful of voters:

 
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Part of being in the HOF is representing the HOF and Fleury seems to be unmedicated and mentally ill with a lot of his bizarre rants.

I say that with sensitivity to his humanity, but you can't have that representing the HOF either.
Sometimes I think that we have come a long way in how we think about mental illness and then I see this.

The thing is that I have often felt the same way but if it wasn't for the mental illness (and the secondary perception of what caused it) and he was some nice polite prairie boy he would have been in the HHOF a long time ago.

I'm pretty conflicted on him it seems.
 
Sometimes I think that we have come a long way in how we think about mental illness and then I see this.

The thing is that I have often felt the same way but if it wasn't for the mental illness (and the secondary perception of what caused it) and he was some nice polite prairie boy he would have been in the HHOF a long time ago.

I'm pretty conflicted on him it seems.
Uh, excuse you mate. I literally work in mental health. Believe me when I say that I am very sensitive, in a very real and lived way, to mental health challenges and that it doesn't make me value someone's humanity in any lesser fashion.

But when you are promoting dangerous anti-vax theories and the like. You know, perspectives that literally cost human lives, then there is a social responsibility not to amplify and glorify that message.

Like it or not, when you put 'hockey hall of famer' below someone's name you add a certain prestige to the perception of them. It comes off as a bit of a co-sign on them by a hallowed institution.

Again, if he was trans (not calling this a mental illness but a 'controversial topic' to some), or bi-polar, or had schizophrenia etc. None of those would be reasons to exclude him in my eyes.

But you can't hand a bullhorn to someone who is basically spouting Q-anon nonsense. It's genuinely bad for public health and it's lending credence to a baseless and dangerous perspective.
 
Uh, excuse you mate. I literally work in mental health. Believe me when I say that I am very sensitive, in a very real and lived way, to mental health challenges and that it doesn't make me value someone's humanity in any lesser fashion.

But when you are promoting dangerous anti-vax theories and the like. You know, perspectives that literally cost human lives, then there is a social responsibility not to amplify and glorify that message.

Like it or not, when you put 'hockey hall of famer' below someone's name you add a certain prestige to the perception of them. It comes off as a bit of a co-sign on them by a hallowed institution.

Again, if he was trans (not calling this a mental illness but a 'controversial topic' to some), or bi-polar, or had schizophrenia etc. None of those would be reasons to exclude him in my eyes.

But you can't hand a bullhorn to someone who is basically spouting Q-anon nonsense. It's genuinely bad for public health and it's lending credence to a baseless and dangerous perspective.
Look I get what you are saying but Theo is a troubled soul and it's hard not to think of the horrific teenage years and life he has had to endure so I have mixed feelings in his HHOF worthy was.

It's not like Bobby Hulk was a saint but then again the lens in 2023 is different than in the past
 
Look I get what you are saying but Theo is a troubled soul and it's hard not to think of the horrific teenage years and life he has had to endure so I have mixed feelings in his HHOF worthy was.

It's not like Bobby Hulk was a saint but then again the lens in 2023 is different than in the past

Fleury does say a lot of things that people wish they had the guts to say. I'll give him that for sure. I think he says things that make people uncomfortable because we tend to blind ourselves to the truth of a lot of things. He's as sober as Pat Boone though, has been for a while. I don't think it is an extremist position to want to hold the feet of the government to the fire, we don't do this in Canada, and I don't think anything the guy has said is something that makes you say "Hmmph! Keep him out of the Hall!" He just isn't the type the stuffy HHOF committee would like. Heck, they'd have kept Belfour and Glenn Anderson out if they could just to prove a point. Took them years to finally put Barrasso in there. Fleury had the career for the Hall though, to be fair. Others like him get put in.
 
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He only hit those totals because he played a ton of games and a majority of them with Thornton. His per game/per season rates are abysmal against other HOF members/candidates.

Only AS-4 and AS-7
Only 1 season over 80 pts
Never Top 10 in points
Only 4,6 Top 10 in goals
Only 76 points in 122 playoff games
Career per 82 of only 26 goals and 55 points (0.67 career PPG)

The absolute poster child of mediocre player compiling HOF level totals.

Not to mention he only got the GP record because the Sharks helped him out. He was atrocious with Pittsburgh and not a single team wanted to sign him. But I guess the Sharks decided they'd get him the games played record in return for all those years of loyalty.

Howe had the record because even at 50 he was able to contribute to a team.
 
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There's really no other way to cut it other than Marleau had a historically unusual back 5 of his career.

You have to go down to Shane Doan at 17th in games played before you find a non HoF player.

Either he gets in because of the record or he has by far the most games of anyone outside.

There's really no historical precedence for a mediocre player hanging on the last few years chasing a record.
He joins a “ring of fame” for San Jose with his name in the rafters like every player of his nature does, he does not go to the HOCKEY Hall of Fame because of one silly distinction and one that other great HoF players could have also beaten, easily. Do we start allowing players from other leagues who played the most games?

As much as I loved Cam Neely’s career, when the Hall allowed him in, the standards have fallen. At least Neely is close to point per game along with a 50/50 season. Marleau is a likeable player, he is not a Hall of Famer.

Not to mention he only got the GP record because the Sharks helped him out. He was atrocious with Pittsburgh and not a single team wanted to sign him. But I guess the Sharks decided they'd get him the games played record in return for all those years of loyalty.

Howe had the record because even at 50 he was able to contribute to a team.
Bingo
 
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