Who is the best goal scorer of all time and who are the top 10 all time in order?

[norrisnick]

Well, this person isn't looking for raw stats. It's easy to sort by goals and call it, so if ability is just "one piece", it must be the vast majority of it or else there isn't much to discuss, right?

So, at what point does longevity stop being a factor? If Ovechkin quit five years ago...would people wonder if he's a top 5 (or whatever) goal scorer because he isn't out there traipsing around still?

Jagr, who you sort of backdoor brought up, played 24 seasons in the NHL...I don't think longevity is the question. He's 4th all time in goals as a result...not a lot of "Jagr" entries on these lists though.

Proper talent evaluation is always the way to go. I'm not saying take a guy that played 12 games before film or anything...but I don't see a lot of Mike Gartner answers either for some reason...

At the same ages that Lemieux was sipping drinks around the links during his sabbatical (32-34), Ovechkin won 3 goal scoring titles. Being the best in the league at the skill being discussed is of importance. Call it compiling if you want, but if you're compiling goal scoring titles I think that's ok.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Oh, I see, it's Mario stuff. It's not about "compiling" or not, there isn't anything new or interesting in Ovechkin's game now versus 2019. So, it doesn't matter to me for the question at hand.

Assuming he comes out with more of the same this year, it won't change my opinion because I've already seen this player to the fullest extent. Whether he quits tomorrow, has a 0 goal season, has a 42 goal season, breaks the record, ties the record, falls one short, whatever it is, has no bearing any longer for me unless a trivia question comes up about where he falls on the goals list.

Like I said, he could have quit five years ago too, I'd still have him way, way up on the list in terms of goal scorers as it pertains the thread. Hell, he could have quit a good ten years ago and I don't think it would have changed all that much. I got it.

If there is some positive adaptability to the game, then that's interesting...but otherwise, meh...it's like Connor McDavid having a six point night against Kingston in the last regular season of his draft year...like, "you didn't already make up your mind about him already? You don't already have all your notes? It's a game against Kingston that altered something...?"

 

[Midnight Judges]

Um... no.

I am saying that Lemieux at his best was better than Ovechkin at his best.

Do you rank Ray Whitney higher than Pavel Bure?

Ovechkin's peak goal scoring season adjusts higher than any season by Mario Lemieux:

NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Brett Hull (78), 2. Alex Ovechkin (72), 3. Mario Lemieux (71), 4. Cooney Weiland (70), Phil Esposito (70), 6. Wayne Gretzky (69), 7. Babe Dye (68), Wayne Gretzky (68), Steven Stamkos (68), Auston Matthews (68)

www.hockey-reference.com

Ovechkin has the highest raw total and the highest adjusted total of his era. Lemieux has neither.

Anyway, if you remove the 2011 and 2012 seasons, Ovechkin's GPG (the metric you cited) increases. You realize that, right?

In other words, by that measure he's held in higher regard if he quits for those seasons rather than leading his team in points and goals.

 

[Midnight Judges]

He certainly didn't. Would his goal scoring ability be better or worse if he did?

The ability is better if the player rests. Injuries reduce ability, and virtually all players who play sustain injuries.

 

[K Fleur]

I see adjusted stats are back to being important today and not fantasy.

Wonder why

 

[Midnight Judges]

I see adjusted stats are back to being important today and not fantasy.

Wonder why

Because accounting for environmental differences is logical and adjusted stats do a reasonable job of it.

Otherwise you end up with bizarre outcomes, such as the illustrious Dennis Maruk having a way higher peak than Sidney Crosby.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Because accounting for environmental differences is logical and adjusted stats do a reasonable job of it.

Otherwise you end up with bizarre outcomes, such as the illustrious Dennis Maruk having a way higher peak than Sidney Crosby.

Nothing you've said is inconsistent, the snarkiness directed towards you is unwarranted. PPG is a tool to assess performance just not an end all, when looked side by side with performance, be all for defining value.. specifically with players consistently on the shelf. Adjusting will always have merit because of drastically different scoring environment, which is just stats not fantasy.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Ability is but one piece. What you do with it is what matters. Longevity, IMO does factor into a measure of best. Otherwise Joe Malone hit the peak in 1920 and it's been all downhill since.

What does Lemieux quitting for 3 years have to do with his ability to score goals?

Ovechkin's peak goal scoring season adjusts higher than any season by Mario Lemieux:

NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Brett Hull (78), 2. Alex Ovechkin (72), 3. Mario Lemieux (71), 4. Cooney Weiland (70), Phil Esposito (70), 6. Wayne Gretzky (69), 7. Babe Dye (68), Wayne Gretzky (68), Steven Stamkos (68), Auston Matthews (68)

www.hockey-reference.com

Ovechkin has the highest raw total and the highest adjusted total of his era. Lemieux has neither.

Anyway, if you remove the 2011 and 2012 seasons, Ovechkin's GPG (the metric you cited) increases. You realize that, right?

In other words, by that measure he's held in higher regard if he quits for those seasons rather than leading his team in points and goals.

If Ovechkin was so much better than Lemieux(Or Gretzky), why did he never score more than 65 goals in a season?

Because accounting for environmental differences is logical and adjusted stats do a reasonable job of it.

Otherwise you end up with bizarre outcomes, such as the illustrious Dennis Maruk having a way higher peak than Sidney Crosby.

Dennis Maruk never won a scoring title.

 

[MadLuke]

Ovechkin's peak goal scoring season adjusts higher than any season by Mario Lemieux:

When he go into adjusted territory and a single goal difference (72-71) I think we can use the word tie and under that metric, it does not help us much to go one way or the other.

Player	G/A	Season
Alex Ovechkin	72	2007-08
Mario Lemieux*	71	1988-89
Mario Lemieux*	67	1995-96
Alex Ovechkin	62	2012-13
Alex Ovechkin	60	2014-15
Mario Lemieux*	59	1987-88
Alex Ovechkin	59	2008-09

Or adjusted per HR goal per game does it look something like this (not a rhetorical question, not sure my math is right with the to 82 games season adjusting going on):

Mario Lemieux*	0.96​	1995-96
Mario Lemieux*	0.96​	1992-93
Mario Lemieux*	0.91​	1988-89
Alex Ovechkin	0.88​	2007-08
Alex Ovechkin	0.84​	2019-20
Alex Ovechkin	0.76​	2009-10
Alex Ovechkin	0.76​	2012-13
Mario Lemieux*	0.75​	1987-88
Alex Ovechkin	0.75​	2008-09
Alex Ovechkin	0.74​	2013-14
Alex Ovechkin	0.74​	2014-15
Alex Ovechkin	0.72​	2015-16
Mario Lemieux*	0.68​	1996-97
Alex Ovechkin	0.64​	2005-06
Alex Ovechkin	0.64​	2018-19

Does it goes against the notion Mario the best, Ovechkin the greatest at it ? Seem perfectly in line with it.

 

[Professor What]

If Ovechkin was so much better than Lemieux(Or Gretzky), why did he never score more than 65 goals in a season?



Dennis Maruk never won a scoring title.

By your logic, if Crosby is so much better than Maruk, how come he never scored 136 points in a season?

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Midnight Judges]

When he go into adjusted territory and a single goal difference (72-71) I think we can use the word tie and under that metric, it does not help us much to go one way or the other.

I could go along with that. It's reasonable enough. This is a 1.4% difference. I seriously doubt adjusted stats are anywhere near that accurate.

Player	G/A	Season
Alex Ovechkin	72	2007-08
Mario Lemieux*	71	1988-89
Mario Lemieux*	67	1995-96
Alex Ovechkin	62	2012-13
Alex Ovechkin	60	2014-15
Mario Lemieux*	59	1987-88
Alex Ovechkin	59	2008-09

Or adjusted per HR goal per game does it look something like this (not a rhetorical question, not sure my math is right with the to 82 games season adjusting going on):

Mario Lemieux*	0.96​	1995-96
Mario Lemieux*	0.96​	1992-93
Mario Lemieux*	0.91​	1988-89
Alex Ovechkin	0.88​	2007-08
Alex Ovechkin	0.84​	2019-20
Alex Ovechkin	0.76​	2009-10
Alex Ovechkin	0.76​	2012-13
Mario Lemieux*	0.75​	1987-88
Alex Ovechkin	0.75​	2008-09
Alex Ovechkin	0.74​	2013-14
Alex Ovechkin	0.74​	2014-15
Alex Ovechkin	0.72​	2015-16
Mario Lemieux*	0.68​	1996-97
Alex Ovechkin	0.64​	2005-06
Alex Ovechkin	0.64​	2018-19

Does it goes against the notion Mario the best, Ovechkin the greatest at it ? Seem perfectly in line with it.

It depends on if you think durability is exclusive from the quality of the player. It seems to me durability is a virtue in all professional sports. It's a prerequisite for "better" and a necessary characteristic. Reaching to a per game stat in this instance doesn't really achieve anything aside from the desire to ignore a key player attribute.

IMO, the per season metric is more indicative.

To put a guy with 3 goal scoring titles over a guy with 9, you have to really really want it.

 

[Midnight Judges]

By your logic, if Crosby is so much better than Maruk, how come he never scored 136 points in a season?

You can't have it both ways.

The average offensive output of a team in '81-82 was 3.95 goals.

For most of Crosby's career it's been closer to 2.7.

In other words, scoring was 46% higher back then. It's a huge difference that ought to be considered.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Honest question: If this was a thread about the 10 fastest skaters if you've ever seen, would you factor in seasons played...?

 

[Professor What]

The average offensive output of a team in '81-82 was 3.95 goals.

For most of Crosby's career it's been closer to 2.7.

In other words, scoring was 46% higher back then. It's a huge difference that ought to be considered.

I'm not actually arguing that Maruk is better than Crosby. But for one comparison he used raw statistics without context, but not for the other. It was inconsistent.

 

[MadLuke]

To put a guy with 3 goal scoring titles over a guy with 9, you have to really really want it.

And scored 56 goals his first 66 playoff games before turning 30 (70 goals per 82 pace, during high level-stake playoff hockey), 11 in 9 during the 1987 canada cup.

That's 67 goals in 75 big games, with death focus opposition, those are a bit soccer striker type of numbers, 133 goals his last juniors season, it is not just based on 3 regular seasons in the nhl. He was first in gpg in 1987 and first in 2001, 14 years later.

9 scoring title > 3, making one much greater at it than the other, best at scoring a goal during a game, it is still possible to have a conversation.

 

[Gorskyontario]

By your logic, if Crosby is so much better than Maruk, how come he never scored 136 points in a season?

You can't have it both ways.

My logic is that Maruk never won a major award.

Crosby certainly has.

Honest question: If this was a thread about the 10 fastest skaters if you've ever seen, would you factor in seasons played...?

No, I would not.