Who is more dominant in their sport: Ohtani, McDavid or Mahomes?

[Cas]

Ohtani's WAR over the last three years:

2021 - 8.9 (1st)
2022 - 9.6 (2nd)
2023 - 7.5 (1st)

Right now, he has a 50% lead on his challengers and would prorate to 11.8 WAR. That's pretty awesome.

This is Baseball Reference WAR. I have zero faith in Fangraphs WAR because the pitching side uses FIP.

 

[GeeoffBrown]

Except hitting and pitching is not comparable to playing center and goalie in Hockey. Pitcher's been hitting forever, you never see any centers playing goalie during the third period.

Although I agree that the answer is Ohtani.

Yeah it's a tough comparison. Maybe if McDavid was also an elite penalty killer?

 

[JoelWarlord]

Except hitting and pitching is not comparable to playing center and goalie in Hockey. Pitcher's been hitting forever

It's absolutely comparable, and the level of specialization between a major league hitter and pitcher is really only rivalled by the level of specialization between certain positions in football and goalie/skater in hockey. Pitchers have been essentially a non-factor at the plate for the overwhelming majority of the game's history. Bumgarner and Greinke are pretty much the high water mark at the plate for non-Ohtani pitchers in the modern game and we're talking career 44 and 60 OPS+, massively below replacement level as hitters and those guys were as good as it gets, most of the other pitchers were massively worse at the plate. If goalies were forced to dress as forwards for 1 of every 5 games for the past 100 years of hockey history we'd have 100 years of goalies playing 15-16 games and putting up like 1-2 points per season.

It's simply a quirk of the rules that means we have a long history of pitchers "hitting", they haven't actually been any good at it and it's just as different from the other side of the game as playing goal is relative to playing as a forward, they're pitchers that were forced to hit and were not expected to produce any value whatsoever at the plate. Hockey teams would do the same if they were forced to play their starting goalie on the fourth line once every 5 games because playing goal is just as specialized.

 

[Regal]

While that is impressive, there were only 14 days left in the season at that point. I did look and he was -3000 with 2 months to go, which is an insane number, too.

That’s true, it’s unusual to be that big of a favourite with so much time left. Though it’s an a bit of a mediocre field this year. Seager is having a great year and is second in WAR in the AL, but he’s already missed almost 40 games. A healthy Judge or Trout might have made things interesting.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

How to tell people you don’t know anything about baseball, step one.

Admittedly, I did stop watching baseball after the 1994-95 strike (the 4th strike of my nearly two decades of fandom, and 5th overall labor stoppage), so maybe I forgot a few things and am missing something, but what has Ohtani done on the field of play that you think qualifies as dominant? From what I see, he's a good power hitting DH who also pitches at a decently high level, but hasn't led the league in anything except triples, getting caught stealing, and intentional walks. There's better hitters and much better pitchers out there, so it seems like it's really Ohtani's versatility that sets him apart, not because he dominates the league with his level of play. But being versatile and being dominant aren't the same thing.

McDavid, on the other hand, has set himself apart on the ice, by winning 5 of the last 7 Ross trophies, with only injuries and Kucherov stopping it from being 7 for 7. That's domination.

Hasek leading the NHL in SV% for 6 straight years, and winning 6 Vezinas in 8 years (plus back to back Harts). Even other great goalies, like Roy and Brodeur, couldn't outperform him on the ice. That is domination.

 

[JoelWarlord]

What has Ohtani done on the field of play that you think qualifies as dominant? From what I see, he's a good power hitting DH who also pitches at a decently high level, but hasn't led the league in anything except triples, getting caught stealing, and intentional walks. There's better hitters and much better pitchers out there,

He is the most productive hitter in baseball this season, leading the majors with 38HR right now, won the MVP in 2021, and was 4th in Cy Young voting in 2022. Offensively from 2021 to 2023 he's 2nd in home runs with 118, he's 3rd in OPS, 16th in stolen bases, 21st in hits, 2nd in walks, T-1st in intentional walks, T-1st in triples, 6th in RBI, etc. Over the same timeframe as a pitcher he's 9th in the majors in ERA among qualified starters, 8th in strikeouts (3rd in K/9), 11th in FIP, 10th in fWAR, and 4th in rWAR.

He's an ace who's been a top 10 pitcher in baseball for 3 seasons and throws a 100mph fastball while also being a top 5 hitter in the world (and the single best hitter so far this season) and one of the fastest guys in the majors. There are a small handful of better pitchers and probably only Trout, Judge, and Alvarez are better at the plate right now. You're right that being versatile doesn't inherently mean dominant but when your versatility means your team gets the equivalent of two franchise players who would cost 30 million a year each in free agency that's absolutely dominance.

In terms of aggregate comparisons over the past three seasons he's been slightly more effective at the plate than Freddie Freeman ($27M/yr) and roughly as valuable as a pitcher as Gerrit Cole ($36M/yr) or Max Scherzer (43.33M/yr). It's genuinely ludicrous how good he is, he's performing on par with slam dunk HOFers on both sides of the ball at the same time.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

He is the most productive hitter in baseball this season, leading the majors with 38HR right now, won the MVP in 2021, and was 4th in Cy Young voting in 2022. Offensively from 2021 to 2023 he's 2nd in home runs with 118, he's 3rd in OPS, 16th in stolen bases, 21st in hits, 2nd in walks, T-1st in intentional walks, T-1st in triples, 6th in RBI, etc. Over the same timeframe as a pitcher he's 9th in the majors in ERA among qualified starters, 8th in strikeouts (3rd in K/9), 11th in FIP, 10th in fWAR, and 4th in rWAR.

He's an ace who's been a top 10 pitcher in baseball for 3 seasons and throws a 100mph fastball while also being a top 5 hitter in the world (and the single best hitter so far this season) and one of the fastest guys in the majors. There are a small handful of better pitchers and probably only Trout, Judge, and Alvarez are better at the plate right now. You're right that being versatile doesn't inherently mean dominant but when your versatility means your team gets the equivalent of two franchise players who would cost 30 million a year each in free agency that's absolutely dominance.

In terms of aggregate comparisons over the past three seasons he's been slightly more effective at the plate than Freddie Freeman ($27M/yr) and roughly as valuable as a pitcher as Gerrit Cole ($36M/yr) or Max Scherzer (43.33M/yr). It's genuinely ludicrous how good he is, he's performing on par with slam dunk HOFers on both sides of the ball at the same time.

The fact that he's not 1st by a large margin in any category over the last 3 years kind of proves my point. Being a top 5 hitter and a top 10 pitcher for 3 years is extremely impressive, and shows a versatility we haven't seen since Babe Ruth, but being among the best isn't the same as being the best by a large margin, no matter how great the salary on the last year of his current contract is, or how good of a year he's having. When there's guys better than you, then you're not dominating on the field of play.

Over the last 7 years, McDavid has 126 more points than 2nd place, and the gap in PPG between McDavid and #2 is the same as between 2nd and 13th. He has the most ES points, most PP points, most GWGs and most OT Goals. There's only a few offensive categories over the last 7 years where he's not 1st, like goals where he's only 3rd, but almost everything he does sets the mark for everyone else to chase, year after year after year. That's domination on the field of play.

 

[ryerockarola]

Yeah it's a tough comparison. Maybe if McDavid was also an elite penalty killer?

Yeah good point tough comparison to hockey. But football maybe easier to compare as O and D take field separately like Ohtani does as ace pitcher (team's D) and great hitter (team's O). So on thread topic maybe Mahomes would be better comparison if on top of being ace QB on O he was an ace starting CB on D (and heck maybe was a gunner or the ace kicker or punter too on special teams )

 

[Despote]

Yeah it's a tough comparison. Maybe if McDavid was also an elite penalty killer?

He probably is the best shorthanded player in the league by the virtue of his insane scoring rate there. It's a coaching decision how much to play him there though, to not limit the stamina he has for 5vs5/PP hockey. I've always liked coaches using him there, McLellan did it early and Woodcroft put him back on the PK. Scoring at PK is rarer than scoring at 5vs5 to an extent where I feel like he may add more value there per minute played. Also keeps him fresh if your stuck shorthanded for big parts of the game.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Never heard of the other two, so I’ll go McDavid.

Yes, this is a “me problem” since I I only follow hockey. I don’t even know what other sports the other guys in the poll play. No shame.

 

[lionsDen]

I extremely dislike the chiefs as a recovering broncos fan. But it’s mahomie great player regular season and is lights out in the playoffs, mcdavid up to this point isn’t even close. I don’t watch baseball and had to Google the third

 

[ijuka]

Yeah it's a tough comparison. Maybe if McDavid was also an elite penalty killer?

He's not?

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Ohtani isn’t really comparable to anyone in hockey because even if a high end scorer could strap on the goalie pads and play at a high level that would take away their offensive production. Ohtani would kinda be like if one of the best QB’s in the NFL could rush the passer every few downs on defense at a high level. He’s a unicorn

 

[Zero Requiem]

Ohtani isn’t really comparable to anyone in hockey because even if a high end scorer could strap on the goalie pads and play at a high level that would take away their offensive production. Ohtani would kinda be like if one of the best QB’s in the NFL could rush the passer every few downs on defense at a high level. He’s a unicorn

Calling him a unicorn is a bit of a stretch, there are a number of players in the NFL with similar feats.

Sammy Baugh and Don Hutson are two that come to mind.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Ohtani

 

[ryerockarola]

Calling him a unicorn is a bit of a stretch, there are a number of players in the NFL with similar feats.

Sammy Baugh and Don Hutson are two that come to mind.

Bronco Nagurski also popped into the brain here if we're going with all-time great NFL players who played multiple positions on O and D (and special teams: Baugh)

Ohtani is a unicorn in baseball as no modern player has both pitched and hit at the level he's doing. Babe Ruth's name comes up, but he started as a pitcher for a few years before only becoming a star hitter, he never excelled as both a pitcher and a hitter at the same time like Ohtani's doing (barring injuries which he's dealing with currently)

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Ohtani is a legit once in a lifetime type of athlete. It really isn't even a discussion. Shouldn't be anyways.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Mahomes is more feared. Most impactful. He can control his team's time of possession. What playcalls to make. He touches the ball on every play. QB is the most important position in pro sports. Especially in a passing league where you have to keep up against other great QB's. Gone are the days where Trent Dilfer gets carried to a SB.

Ohtani is the most unique, and diverse, athlete in generations. He's an elite pitcher and hitter. Imagine McDavid playing goalie for 1.5 periods (shutting a team out), followed by scoring a hattrick the remaining game. Once in a lifetime type athlete.

McDavid may be the most talented. There isn't much offensively that he can't do. But his impact is limited by things out of his control. McDavid scoring four goals in a playoff game won't matter if his goalies are giving up 7 a night.

You obviously take Mahomes over the others. Especially with a top three or five coach ever. And best TE in generations.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Ohtani is the most impressive athlete on the planet

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Mahomes is more feared. Most impactful. He can control his team's time of possession. What playcalls to make. He touches the ball on every play. QB is the most important position in pro sports. Especially in a passing league where you have to keep up against other great QB's. Gone are the days where Trent Dilfer gets carried to a SB.

Ohtani is the most unique, and diverse, athlete in generations. He's an elite pitcher and hitter. Imagine McDavid playing goalie for 1.5 periods (shutting a team out), followed by scoring a hattrick the remaining game.

McDavid may be the most talented. There isn't much offensively that he can't do. But his impact is limited by things out of his control. McDavid scoring four goals in a playoff game won't matter if his goalies are giving up 7 a night.

You obviously take Mahomes over the others. Especially with a top three or five coach ever. And best TE in generations.

I mean didn't Nick Foles lead his team to Super Bowl like 5 years ago? I am not sure I would go as far as to say the days of Trent Dilfers getting rings are gone in the NFL.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Imagine McDavid played goalie once every 3 games and was putting up Vezina numbers.

Him playing goalie might actually be an improvement on what they have.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Ohtani is the most impressive athlete on the planet

yes.

I mean didn't Nick Foles lead his team to Super Bowl like 5 years ago? I am not sure I would go as far as to say the days of Trent Dilfers getting rings are gone in the NFL.

He wasn't carried to a SB. If you took any scrub QB and put them on that Ravens team from decades ago, they likely still win. All that QB had to do was not turn it over consistently.

Foles playing an OK game in the SB would have been an easy loss. Especially with the opposing QB putting up 33 points. Foles HAD to be great for them to win that game.

The last guy to really get carried was the corpse of Peyton Manning in 2015.

Yeah there may be flukes once every 15 years. But the other 14 will likely be legit QB's winning the SB.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Admittedly, I did stop watching baseball after the 1994-95 strike (the 4th strike of my nearly two decades of fandom, and 5th overall labor stoppage), so maybe I forgot a few things and am missing something, but what has Ohtani done on the field of play that you think qualifies as dominant? From what I see, he's a good power hitting DH who also pitches at a decently high level, but hasn't led the league in anything except triples, getting caught stealing, and intentional walks. There's better hitters and much better pitchers out there, so it seems like it's really Ohtani's versatility that sets him apart, not because he dominates the league with his level of play. But being versatile and being dominant aren't the same thing.

McDavid, on the other hand, has set himself apart on the ice, by winning 5 of the last 7 Ross trophies, with only injuries and Kucherov stopping it from being 7 for 7. That's domination.

Hasek leading the NHL in SV% for 6 straight years, and winning 6 Vezinas in 8 years (plus back to back Harts). Even other great goalies, like Roy and Brodeur, couldn't outperform him on the ice. That is domination.

Among his peers yes.

But the NHL has seen more than several McDavid caliber players in it's history. He isn't a guy who is putting up numbers never seen before.

The MLB has never seen a guy like Ohtani before.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Among his peers yes.

But the NHL has seen more than several McDavid caliber players in it's history. He isn't a guy who is putting up numbers never seen before.

The MLB has never seen a guy like Ohtani before.

What about Babe Ruth? He dominated his peers as a hitter, after being one of the better pitchers in the league. To me, the biggest difference between them is that Ruth didn't have the DH position to be able to just hit on his days off from pitching.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Ohtani

McDavid


Mahomes