Who does LA pick #2

[KINGS17]

We are projecting guys like Martin Frk, Dustin Brown, and Kempe playing a top 6 role for our team. While not projecting the second overall pick or the 7th (Turcotte) and 8th (Kaliyev) best prospects (according to Wheeler from The Athletic) not to mention Fagemo (who has two full seasons in the SHL under his belt) to make the roster.

I'm not saying they should be just given top 6 roles. But they should certainly be given the opportunity to win a top 6 role... They are literally competing with obvious bottom sixers.

You are looking for the best team next season. I am looking for the best team in 2 or 3 seasons. Even if the #2OA is a better player than every bottom sixer on the Kings, it doesn't mean whoever it is shouldn't be sent down. The Kings aren't winning jack next season, or the season after that. It is time to do whatever is in the best interest of each player's development. The Kings are looking to maximize the potential of every prospect at this point in time.

 

[Legionnaire]

Kings GM Dean Lombardi on Holloway, Moller’s European Vacation

Prospects get rushed and they suffer. You can pretend it's not an issue if you like.

If you think teams just send players down and have no input in what happens to the them, or at the very least don't have a diet plan or maintain communications with reassigned players, then there's no point in discussing the benefits of playing in a lower level of competition.

And Byfield/Stutzle would be fighting for minutes, so the point is moot.

I am FIRMLY in the the camp that sees the prospect playing a lot of hockey. A lot of quality minutes rounding out their games.

 

[Rusty Batch]

You are looking for the best team next season. I am looking for the best team in 2 or 3 seasons. Even if the #2OA is a better player than every bottom sixer on the Kings, it doesn't mean whoever it is shouldn't be sent down. The Kings aren't winning jack next season, or the season after that. It is time to do whatever is in the best interest of each player's development. The Kings are looking to maximize the potential of every prospect at this point in time.

I don't think it's one or the other. If you can earn top 6 minutes and play with future hall of famers and experience the pace of the NHL then there is nowhere better imo to develop.

So I am mostly interested in developing the players, winning a few more games is just icing on the cake.

The problem with calling up young players, who project to be top 6 players, to an NHL team is burying them in bottom six roles and giving them no pp time. But when you can afford to give them major minutes then it's a great place to develop imo. This team can afford to play a guy like Kaliyev next to Kopitar all season long, his weakness is his defensive play right? So where will he learn to play better Defense, next to Kopitar on an NHL team that will demand it, or back in the CHL where he can get away with whatever he wants? That's just one example.

 

[Rorschach]

I didn't give you a projection on Byfield. I gave you actual stats. Numbers. Context.

Points per game by definition is a rate and his/QB’s rate was based on a partial season. Therefore it is a projection.

Otherwise you wouldn’t quote a ppg rate. You would just show me how he had the second highest number of points overall that season and you also would not find me arguing against QB being our 2nd overall...because not only would I then have little issue with him (vs. Stutzle) we’d probably be drafting Lafreniere instead because QB would be going 1st overall.

But neither is true...QB played a partial, like 2/3rds to 7/9ths, of a season against boys and we won’t know what his real ppg would have been because he never played those other games.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Points per game by definition is a rate and his/QB’s rate was based on a partial season. Therefore it is a projection.

Otherwise you wouldn’t quote a ppg rate. You would just show me how he had the second highest number of points overall that season and you also would not find me arguing against QB being our 2nd overall...because not only would I then have little issue with him (vs. Stutzle) we’d probably be drafting Lafreniere instead because QB would be going 1st overall.

But neither is true...QB played a partial, like 2/3rds to 7/9ths, of a season against boys and we won’t know what his real ppg would have been because he never played those other games.

I think most people understand that ppg is a more telling stat than total points.

 

[Rorschach]

I think most people understand that ppg is a more telling stat than total points.

They’d be wrong. They don’t give out trophies based on scoring rate, they give them out on scoring total.

Consistency over an entire period is the mark of excellence in the NHL along with how you finish in big tournaments with big stakes and against high quality competition.

45 games in a junior league plus no big performances in tournaments in the same year to corroborate the narritive, plus no previous seasons of excellence doesn’t paint a particularly compelling story...especially against other members of the same class who check one or all of the above criteria.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't think we need to worry about this part with Byfield or Stutzle, they both seem to be NHL size. Honestly, the guy that worried me the most in this regard recently was Pettersson, his rookie season had me cringing every time he took a hit.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you on this part, I was just providing a counter argument to the over developing concept. I think there are plenty of valid arguments for joining the Kings at 18 for Byfield/Stutzle and just as many for them not to be in the NHL. I do find the whole discussion interesting because it brings into account another factor. Byfield is limited to CHL or the NHL, while Stutzle can go to Ontario. I think if Byfield is drafted that he has a much better chance of being on the Kings next season than Stutzle would for this very reason.

Same on Pettersson and I was totally wrong about him translating quickly, so that's actually a really good example.

It's an interesting dimension having the CHL kid vs. the European kid for placement's sake but I wouldn't draft on next year.

I don't think it's one or the other. If you can earn top 6 minutes and play with future hall of famers and experience the pace of the NHL then there is nowhere better imo to develop.

So I am mostly interested in developing the players, winning a few more games is just icing on the cake.

The problem with calling up young players, who project to be top 6 players, to an NHL team is burying them in bottom six roles and giving them no pp time. But when you can afford to give them major minutes then it's a great place to develop imo. This team can afford to play a guy like Kaliyev next to Kopitar all season long, his weakness is his defensive play right? So where will he learn to play better Defense, next to Kopitar on an NHL team that will demand it, or back in the CHL where he can get away with whatever he wants? That's just one example.

I do think that one of the criticisms of the Kings--not trading Kopitar and Doughty--is one of the reasons they're an effective development environment vs., say, the Oilers previously. Or, frankly, the Devils when they picked up Hischier. There's a good combo of great youth with leadership coming up together, a legendary veteran set in Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, etc., and a phenomenal development system. That does add a unique wrinkle to the "CHL or NHL" discussion because if we were the 2010s oilers I'd say send him back after 9 almost without fail haha.

Points per game by definition is a rate and his/QB’s rate was based on a partial season. Therefore it is a projection.

Otherwise you wouldn’t quote a ppg rate. You would just show me how he had the second highest number of points overall that season and you also would not find me arguing against QB being our 2nd overall...because not only would I then have little issue with him (vs. Stutzle) we’d probably be drafting Lafreniere instead because QB would be going 1st overall.

But neither is true...QB played a partial, like 2/3rds to 7/9ths, of a season against boys and we won’t know what his real ppg would have been because he never played those other games.

You could also argue his PPG would be higher as he was playing back from an injury. It cuts both ways. We're not talking about a dude who came out of nowhere to put up big numbers in a small sample size, he still played most of the season at a near 2 PPG rate. He was at 1.83 PPG in the 6 games before his injury (basically season avg), and 1.6 in the few games after injury before the season got cut short.

Your argument is essentially that missing a handful of games makes him less talented and should drop him in draft position because "we don't know" what his "true" PPG would have been like but frankly that's an assumption that not even 20 games would have seen a noteworthy drop in his production when we have no reason to believe otherwise. Especially given even guys like Rossi, McMichael, etc. missed some games themselves.

 

[King'sPawn]

They’d be wrong. They don’t give out trophies based on scoring rate, they give them out on scoring total.

Consistency over an entire period is the mark of excellence in the NHL along with how you finish in big tournaments with big stakes and against high quality competition.

45 games in a junior league plus no big performances in tournaments in the same year to corroborate the narritive, plus no previous seasons of excellence doesn’t paint a particularly compelling story...especially against other members of the same class who check one or all of the above criteria.

No previous seasons of excellence? He was the CHL Rookie of the Year...?

 

[BigKing]

Points per game by definition is a rate and his/QB’s rate was based on a partial season. Therefore it is a projection.

Otherwise you wouldn’t quote a ppg rate. You would just show me how he had the second highest number of points overall that season and you also would not find me arguing against QB being our 2nd overall...because not only would I then have little issue with him (vs. Stutzle) we’d probably be drafting Lafreniere instead because QB would be going 1st overall.

But neither is true...QB played a partial, like 2/3rds to 7/9ths, of a season against boys and we won’t know what his real ppg would have been because he never played those other games.

Stutzle didn't play a full season either and the games he missed included five against the other over .500 teams in the DEL. We don't know what his real PPG would have been since he played a partial season against washed-up has-beens and never was's. Even worse, he was only the 7th highest scoring player on his own team.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

No previous seasons of excellence? He was the CHL Rookie of the Year...?

Me thinks Rorschach is either clueless or can’t process facts. How can anyone be so dense that they can’t even figure out the points per game stat?

 

[cyclones22]

Me thinks Rorschach is either clueless or can’t process facts. How can anyone be so dense that they can’t even figure out the points per game stat?

It's flat earth levels of denial.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No previous seasons of excellence? He was the CHL Rookie of the Year...?

He was also the 1st overall pick in the 2018 OHL draft after putting up seasons of 108 points in 33 games in 15U (3.27 PPG, next closest were at 2.34, 1.55, 1.53...) and 92 points in 34 games in 16U for 2.71 PPG, over fellow 2020 eligibles who got 70, 63, and 61 points (Tyson Foerster, Evan Vierling, James Hardi) for context.

Dude has a serious history of dominance and the more people try to chip away at him the more I'm actually solidifying my opinion.

"From a young age, Quinton Byfield has set himself apart from the rest of his teammates. He has not only set himself apart as an elite talent but as a future superstar and generational talent of the NHL. At just 14 years old, he put up an impressive 108 points with the York Simcoe Express Bantam AAA, separating himself and the rest of the league (aside from teammate Ty Collins) by almost 50 points."

Ducks 2020 Draft Spotlight: Drafting Quinton Byfield Would be a Game Changer

Even I didn't realize his pre-CHL pedigree, that's absolute insanity levels of dominance and I maintain if Lafreniere didn't exist they'd be hyping Byfield to all heavens as the second coming of Matthews or Malkin.

Please pick Quinton, Kings. Or Lafreniere when the Pens take Byfield 1st OA, haha. Edit: really though I'm starting to think this is more of a Laf/Byfield race than a Byfield/Stutzle for 2nd.

 

[bland]

I don't think it's one or the other. If you can earn top 6 minutes and play with future hall of famers and experience the pace of the NHL then there is nowhere better imo to develop.

So I am mostly interested in developing the players, winning a few more games is just icing on the cake.

The problem with calling up young players, who project to be top 6 players, to an NHL team is burying them in bottom six roles and giving them no pp time. But when you can afford to give them major minutes then it's a great place to develop imo. This team can afford to play a guy like Kaliyev next to Kopitar all season long, his weakness is his defensive play right? So where will he learn to play better Defense, next to Kopitar on an NHL team that will demand it, or back in the CHL where he can get away with whatever he wants? That's just one example.

Kaliyev's "problem" isn't defense or effort, its not even a problem. He is a poacher. His game revolves around watching plays unfold then hitting lanes and seams at the right moment when he can use his shot. Just like Kovalchuk (who has a very different style), you couldn't design a worse fit of a center than Kopitar. Anze needs workers around him. Anze wears defenses down, he doesn't create lanes or look for quick cross ice passes.

Kaliyev needs to stay put, develop his body, then get traded midyear to a contender as he finishes his junior career.

 

[bland]

The only reasonable argument against taking Byfield is that there are other players who may be just as good, but in different parts of the game that merit consideration.

There are no flies on Byfield, whoever gets him is getting a gem.

 

[BigKing]

The only reasonable argument against taking Byfield is that there are other players who may be just as good, but in different parts of the game that merit consideration.

There are no flies on Byfield, whoever gets him is getting a gem.

Blake has not been taking any "swing for the fences" type of picks, although some would say Kaliyev is one but I don't know how true that is when you get him at the top of Round 2 with your 3rd pick of the draft.

While nobody would fault him up front for taking Stutzle--seeing how he has shot up the draft rankings--it would be hard to hold taking Byfield against him even if Byfield didn't pan out as expected. He has the pedigree, production and the rare size/skill combo at a premium position that has been coveted in hockey since the dawn of time.

It's hard to say that Stutzle is a "swing for the fences" type of pick since it wouldn't be going off the board, but I feel that Byfield is the safer pick with the higher ceiling at the same time. Blake needs to add a franchise player and I think he knows it: Byfield has that type of ceiling whereas I'm not sold that Stutzle has that level of impact in him.

 

[The Lukeman]

We still don't know if the OHL/AHL are going to start on time, and if they do start on time, if there would be any exceptions to the rule allowing teams to call up players from the OHL for training camp in December. These details are going to have pretty substantial impacts on where QB plays next year.

Yes, they would be allowed to be called up. Just like the 2013 shortened season, players are allowed to be called up.

If the expectation that the NHL will start Dec 1. We could see a scenario where Byfield/Stutzle Come on the team, play until Dec 15 (about 5 games), then go to WJC for 2 weeks, and come back to play another set of games. This would give the team until ~Jan 10 to make a decision on the player.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Kaliyev's "problem" isn't defense or effort, its not even a problem. He is a poacher. His game revolves around watching plays unfold then hitting lanes and seams at the right moment when he can use his shot. Just like Kovalchuk (who has a very different style), you couldn't design a worse fit of a center than Kopitar. Anze needs workers around him. Anze wears defenses down, he doesn't create lanes or look for quick cross ice passes.

Kaliyev needs to stay put, develop his body, then get traded midyear to a contender as he finishes his junior career.

You couldn't design a worse Center for Kaliyev then Kopitar? Lol ok.

And almost everyone says that Kaliyevs biggest problem is his effort level and particularly on the defensive side of the ice.

Kopitar is the best playmaker we have on our team, he's led the team in assists for over a decade. I'm not going to go any further with this, but I think you are way off.

 

[BigKing]

You couldn't design a worse Center for Kaliyev then Kopitar? Lol ok.

And almost everyone says that Kaliyevs biggest problem is his effort level and particularly on the defensive side of the ice.

Kopitar is the best playmaker we have on our team, he's led the team in assists for over a decade. I'm not going to go any further with this, but I think you are way off.

Kopitar's highest assist seasons are with Brown/Lucic/Gaborik. I guess you could ask is Kaliyev play like those guys?

I agree that of the centers on the roster, Kopitar is obviously the best one for him unless a case can be made for Vilardi...a guy that has really clicked with a pure trigger man like Frk.

 

[bland]

Kopitar's highest assist seasons are with Brown/Lucic/Gaborik. I guess you could ask is Kaliyev play like those guys?

I agree that of the centers on the roster, Kopitar is obviously the best one for him unless a case can be made for Vilardi...a guy that has really clicked with a pure trigger man like Frk.

Fun fact: Kopitar has only ever had one winger score over 30 goals with him in a season, Dustin Brown once in 07-08.

He is a facilitator, not a playmaker.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Kopitar's highest assist seasons are with Brown/Lucic/Gaborik. I guess you could ask is Kaliyev play like those guys?

I agree that of the centers on the roster, Kopitar is obviously the best one for him unless a case can be made for Vilardi...a guy that has really clicked with a pure trigger man like Frk.

Certainly Gaborik wasn't prime Gaborik at that point. He was a smart player with a still great shot that even well past his prime was the most talented offensive winger Kopi ever played with. So I wouldn't say he was like a kaliyev but maybe in the sense of being a smart offensive shoot first winger he was.

 

[bland]

Blake has not been taking any "swing for the fences" type of picks, although some would say Kaliyev is one but I don't know how true that is when you get him at the top of Round 2 with your 3rd pick of the draft.

While nobody would fault him up front for taking Stutzle--seeing how he has shot up the draft rankings--it would be hard to hold taking Byfield against him even if Byfield didn't pan out as expected. He has the pedigree, production and the rare size/skill combo at a premium position that has been coveted in hockey since the dawn of time.

It's hard to say that Stutzle is a "swing for the fences" type of pick since it wouldn't be going off the board, but I feel that Byfield is the safer pick with the higher ceiling at the same time. Blake needs to add a franchise player and I think he knows it: Byfield has that type of ceiling whereas I'm not sold that Stutzle has that level of impact in him.

I think I would probably classify Kupari as a "swing" pick, in the sense that he was a player with top 10 skill upside but very unlikely to hit that mark. That is usually the kind of player available late in the first, flawed diamonds. I was much happier with the Akil Thomas pick the next day.

 

[KINGS17]

Fun fact: Kopitar has only ever had one winger score over 30 goals with him in a season, Dustin Brown once in 07-08.

He is a facilitator, not a playmaker.

Nah, c'mon man you're a dog face pony liar! The only reason Kopitar only had one winger score 30 goals with him as their center is because none of his wingers were any good. Get Kopitar some good wingers and he is a perennial 100-pt producer in the NHL.

 

[Rusty Batch]

I mean Kopitar is 12th among active players in Assists per game without ever playing with 30 goal scorers. Pretty impressive for a non playmaker...

 

[bland]

Nah, c'mon man you're a dog face pony liar! The only reason Kopitar only had one winger score 30 goals with him as their center is because none of his wingers were any good. Get Kopitar some good wingers and he is a perennial 100-pt producer in the NHL.

Actually, I think Toffoli hit 30 too, so I sit corrected.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Actually, I think Toffoli hit 30 too, so I sit corrected.

As doofy as it looked, the Lucic-Kopitar-Toffoli line put up some numbers