Where Do You Stand on Tyler Boucher?

[Xspyrit]

This is the type of comment I often read

"You can have fun at the bottom of your division for the next decade if you don't start trading draft picks because the Senators are the worst drafting team in the league. Sanderson over Drysdale, Tyler Boucher...just have fun at the bottom of your division"

Sure these kids have no idea what they're talking about but this is still the "perception" from some outsiders and our 2021 draft contributed to that. It's about time we start to serve some crow

 

[ottawah]

I thought it was you, I could be wrong, but I did have a similar argue with someone regarding drafting Tom Wilson in the first rd & they thought you don't draft goons in the first rd. I also had that argument with someone about Lucic going back even further. I seem to have that argument a lot on here.

Lucic was likely thought of as more of a goon, but he was also a major late bloomer. He was a second rounder in any case.

But Wilson was not thought of as a goon. He was playing for team Canada for teams like the Hlinka pre-draft. Although in a better draft (2012 should go down as epically bad) he may have been a border line 1st rounder. Chances are though he would have been a lot higher, but injuries really killed his first two junior years.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

10OA doesn’t get you EK… it gets you a coin toss between EK and Logan Brown.

The ceiling at 10OA is very attractive but it’s outcome isn’t assured.

Chris Neil is a better forward than Logan brown, Colin white, Shane Bowers and every forward we’ve taken in the first round in 10-15 years outside the top 6.

Good third line player are More valuable than crappy first liners or below average 2ND liners.

No but 15OA might.. Just a guess

 

[lancepitlick]

A coin toss between Erik Karlsson and Logan Brown is a million times better as an option than a guaranteed Chris Neil and it isn't even remotely close. A six way dice with Logan Brown, Brian Lee, Matt Pumpeul, Stefan Noesen, and Erik Karlsson is a better gamble than a guaranteed Chris Neil. And I love Chris Neil, but championships are built on the backs of superstars. Find me a team of Chris Neil's that wins a cup and I'll change my mind.

 

[Sweatred]

A coin toss between Erik Karlsson and Logan Brown is a million times better as an option than a guaranteed Chris Neil and it isn't even remotely close. A six way dice with Logan Brown, Brian Lee, Matt Pumpeul, Stefan Noesen, and Erik Karlsson is a better gamble than a guaranteed Chris Neil. And I love Chris Neil, but championships are built on the backs of superstars. Find me a team of Chris Neil's that wins a cup and I'll change my mind.

Teams don’t win championships without stars and guys like Neil.. or atleast guys with massive abilities to execute and compete physically.

No one wins because of a streaky PP2 guy.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Thing is, you can make a trade for a good bottom six forward in exchange for a 2nd round pick and B prospect, in the event you need a bottom 6 player as the "last piece" for your roster. Most of the time, you will have more than enough of those kinds of player in your development system already (from picks made outside the first round, I might add).

That's why you try to draft those top 4 defensemen and top 6 forwards and first string goalie, because trading for them costs a mint. And they aren't available for trade often.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Personally I think Neil’s career at 10oa is an absolutely homerun for a pick in that range.

Neil was a special player in his role, I’d take drafting him on our team right now over Sillinger easy, not to mention a boom bust prospect.

 

[Que]

Personally, I believe Boucher will be Chris Neil 2.0.

 

[BondraTime]

Personally, I believe Boucher will be Chris Neil 2.0.

Would be massive, but Neil had 1200+ PIMs in the 5 seasons prior to getting to the NHL, and 170+ Per 82 in every season he was in the league outside of his final season.

Boucher will never play that kind of game.

 

[Sweatred]

Thing is, you can make a trade for a good bottom six forward in exchange for a 2nd round pick and B prospect, in the event you need a bottom 6 player as the "last piece" for your roster. Most of the time, you will have more than enough of those kinds of player in your development system already (from picks made outside the first round, I might add).

That's why you try to draft those top 4 defensemen and top 6 forwards and first string goalie, because trading for them costs a mint. And they aren't available for trade often.

Not really … teams like a Edmonton, Florida, and Toronto aren’t able to add the pieces they need. They need low cap hit players on ELC’s and their bottom 6 doesn’t get it done.

Tampa’s been paying a premium to stock their bottom 6. Our challenge is further magnified because we can’t attract FA’s as well as other markets to replenish our talent pool. Every prospect we give away is adding time on the next lengthy tear down.

 

[Sweatred]

Would be massive, but Neil had 1200+ PIMs in the 5 seasons prior to getting to the NHL, and 170+ Per 82 in every season he was in the league outside of his final season.

Boucher will never play that kind of game.

I don’t think Boucher will replace Neil’s game … but I think he will replicate his value. He won’t fight nearly as much but he has the potential to defend better and I assume he will have more offensive seasons closer to Neil’s peak year and he will be able to play in more situations.

 

[NHL Dude 120]

I'll give him till the end of ELC and then reevaluate him.

 

[cudi]

Def didnt like the pick but life goes on. He's a Senator now so I just hope he can be a 3rd liner in the NHL. 4th liner will be disappointing but at least he's in the NHL lol.

my opinion hasnt changed since this post. Im hoping for the best!

 

[Que]

Would be massive, but Neil had 1200+ PIMs in the 5 seasons prior to getting to the NHL, and 170+ Per 82 in every season he was in the league outside of his final season.

Boucher will never play that kind of game.

To be fair though the game has changed since then. The number of PM’s and fighting majors has dropped off since Neil was a prospect.

Boucher has those darn ‘intangibles’ that are so divisive. Seeing how professionals in this industry from a young age is invaluable experience.

And it’s true my expectations for him are high, probably too high. I think Boucher will be the hardest hitter on our team and top 10 in the league. I expect him to do the majority of the fighting/policing for the organization over the next decade or so and he a 15/15 guy for a number of years.

I know those are mighty high expectations but I think he hits them.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Would be massive, but Neil had 1200+ PIMs in the 5 seasons prior to getting to the NHL, and 170+ Per 82 in every season he was in the league outside of his final season.

Boucher will never play that kind of game.

If you are talking about the fighting aspect then I'm not sure we can reasonably rely on junior stats to determine how much fighting a player will do in the NHL. Tkachuk is an example of a player who only had 1 fight prior to turning pro and then has had 3, 4, 7 and 5 fights per season since playing in the NHL, with the team actively trying to encourage him to fight less.

But the more important thing is that junior players are actually limited in terms of how many fights they can have in junior hockey per season now. I think in the CHL they get suspended if they have 10 or more fights or something. Boucher had 2 fights in the OHL this season and the league lead in fight totals was 5. If he played the full season he could have easily ended up with 4 or 5 fights.

Hockeyfights.com only has two seasons of Chris Neil's OHL fights listed and he had 26 in 97-98 and 15 in 98-99. The OHL leader in fights in those seasons had 40 fights both seasons. Looking through the stats I have to go 7 pages into each season to find a player with a fight total of only 5 fights and each page has 20 players listed. Therefore over 120 players in each season had more than 5 fights in that season.

Saying he will never play that kind of game seems like a strange statement to me. For Boucher to have similar fight totals to Neil, he likely would have needed to play in the same era. The CHL would actively discourage him from having such fight totals now and actually punish him if he was that willing of a fighter.

It also seems like he could have a similar intimidation factor as it would be relative to the level of toughness in the league. For example Tanner Jeannot who led the league in fight totals this season with 14, has 3 seasons in the WHL where his fights are listed and he had 5, 5 and 1. Even a guy like Tom Wilson has his OHL fight totals in regular season listed as 8, 9 and 4. Therefore for a player to be an intimidating enforcer they don't need to have high fight totals relative to historical eras just relative to the fight totals of the league in the current era. Also Wilson and Jeannot are examples of reputable and intimidating fighters whose CHL fight totals are something that Boucher could realistically have similar totals to.

Maybe I misinterpreted your point but I'm not sure relying on PIMS in junior and by extension fight totals can be all that reliable in determining how frequently a player like Boucher might fight in the NHL.

 

[coladin]

If Ottawa is lucky, Cal Clutterbuck may be his ceiling

 

[Ice-Tray]

Watson said that he never fought in junior (2-3 fights total), and still doesn’t really like doing it, but does it to stand up for the guys.

Brady flat out says he enjoys a scrap here and there.

Who knows what Boucher will enjoy, but hitting the way he does he’ll have to stand up for himself, or avoid it like Romanov. We shall see.

 

[BondraTime]

If you are talking about the fighting aspect then I'm not sure we can reasonably rely on junior stats to determine how much fighting a player will do in the NHL. Tkachuk is an example of a player who only had 1 fight prior to turning pro and then has had 3, 4, 7 and 5 fights per season since playing in the NHL, with the team actively trying to encourage him to fight less.

But the more important thing is that junior players are actually limited in terms of how many fights they can have in junior hockey per season now. I think in the CHL they get suspended if they have 10 or more fights or something. Boucher had 2 fights in the OHL this season and the league lead in fight totals was 5. If he played the full season he could have easily ended up with 4 or 5 fights.

Hockeyfights.com only has two seasons of Chris Neil's OHL fights listed and he had 26 in 97-98 and 15 in 98-99. The OHL leader in fights in those seasons had 40 fights both seasons. Looking through the stats I have to go 7 pages into each season to find a player with a fight total of only 5 fights and each page has 20 players listed. Therefore over 120 players in each season had more than 5 fights in that season.

Saying he will never play that kind of game seems like a strange statement to me. For Boucher to have similar fight totals to Neil, he likely would have needed to play in the same era. The CHL would actively discourage him from having such fight totals now and actually punish him if he was that willing of a fighter.

It also seems like he could have a similar intimidation factor as it would be relative to the level of toughness in the league. For example Tanner Jeannot who led the league in fight totals this season with 14, has 3 seasons in the WHL where his fights are listed and he had 5, 5 and 1. Even a guy like Tom Wilson has his OHL fight totals in regular season listed as 8, 9 and 4. Therefore for a player to be an intimidating enforcer they don't need to have high fight totals relative to historical eras just relative to the fight totals of the league in the current era. Also Wilson and Jeannot are examples of reputable and intimidating fighters whose CHL fight totals are something that Boucher could realistically have similar totals to.

Maybe I misinterpreted your point but I'm not sure relying on PIMS in junior and by extension fight totals can be all that reliable in determining how frequently a player like Boucher might fight in the NHL.

Tkachuk played his entire pre NHL with a cage on, there is no fighting at all in the USNTDP and NCAA, doesn’t really fit there.

Boucher will be hitting a ton, he’s not going to be an enforcer. He’ll scrap when needed, won’t be looking for it, won’t be intimidating NHLers with his fighting.

He’s not going to play the same game as Neil because they aren’t similar players/prospects, nor are the playing a similar role.

He’ll hit and answer the bell, he’s not going to be fighting Wilson or Reeves, and he’s not going to be intimidating guys with his fighting prowess. He’ll make guys look over their shoulder grabbing the puck like Neil, and they will know he’s on the ice. But not because they don’t want to scrap.

Like Mann said, expecting him to be Wilson is unfair. He’s not going to be an intimidating guy like him.

I’m not sure why were trying to imagine him into a role he isn’t going to fill.

The difference between the 2 players, the roles, and the way they would be looked at they will have entering the NHL are so incredibly different, Neil had 600 PIMs in 2 pro seasons before entering the league, he literally fought his way into the league as one of the most feared fighters in the league as a rookie.

The Neil we know of his last decade or so was 20ish pounds smaller than Neil entering the league as well, he was a 6’1, 230ish machine. Sens will never have another player like Neil, unfortunately.

Boucher is going to be valuable, and brings a unique skill set, but there is no need in putting unrealistic expectations on a guy, our own head scout doesn’t want those expectations.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Tkachuk played his entire pre NHL with a cage on, there is no fighting at all in the USNTDP and NCAA, doesn’t really fit there.

Boucher will be hitting a ton, he’s not going to be an enforcer. He’ll scrap when needed, won’t be looking for it, won’t be intimidating NHLers with his fighting.

He’s not going to play the same game as Neil because they aren’t similar players/prospects, nor are the playing a similar role.

He’ll hit and answer the bell, he’s not going to be fighting Wilson or Reeves, and he’s not going to be intimidating guys with his fighting prowess. He’ll make guys look over their shoulder grabbing the puck like Neil, and they will know he’s on the ice. But not because they don’t want to scrap.

Like Mann said, expecting him to be Wilson is unfair. He’s not going to be an intimidating guy like him.

I’m not sure why were trying to imagine him into a role he isn’t going to fill.

The difference between the 2 players, the roles, and the way they would be looked at they will have entering the NHL are so incredibly different, Neil had 600 PIMs in 2 pro seasons before entering the league, he literally fought his way into the league as one of the most feared fighters in the league as a rookie.

The Neil we know of his last decade or so was 20ish pounds smaller than Neil entering the league as well, he was a 6’1, 230ish machine. Sens will never have another player like Neil, unfortunately.

Boucher is going to be valuable, and brings a unique skill set, but there is no need in putting unrealistic expectations on a guy, our own head scout doesn’t want those expectations.

Agreed. He did an interview with Wally and Methot where he talked about playing in his first pro league. He talked about the absolute monsters that he had to fight, guys who could barely play hockey. It sounded absolutely insane for a kid wanting to make it to the NHL.

The NHL is unlikely to see another Neiler, 1000 games too.

On a side note, I hope the team is able to involve him somehow.

 

[BondraTime]

Agreed. He did an interview with Wally and Methot where he talked about playing in his first pro league. He talked about the absolute monsters that he had to fight, guys who could barely play hockey. It sounded absolutely insane for a kid wanting to make it to the NHL.

The NHL is unlikely to see another Neiler, 1000 games too.

On a side note, I hope the team is able to involve him somehow.

Would love to have Phillips, Alfie and Neil involved in the team in area's more than charity work or being a face, though if that's what they'd like to do, they've all more than earned it, but would love to have all 3 guys involved in player development at the very least.

Neil knows what it takes to play a sound bottom 6 game moreso than 99.99% of poeple in the NHL, and Phillips knows more about defending at the NHL level more than 99.99% of NHLers, would be a great positive to have them involved in player development the way Donovan is at the very minimum.

NHL isn't gong to see guys like Neil anymore, he was the last of a generation, and one of the best.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Would love to have Phillips, Alfie and Neil involved in the team in area's more than charity work or being a face, though if that's what they'd like to do, they've all more than earned it, but would love to have all 3 guys involved in player development at the very least.

Neil knows what it takes to play a sound bottom 6 game moreso than 99.99% of poeple in the NHL, and Phillips knows more about defending at the NHL level more than 99.99% of NHLers, would be a great positive to have them involved in player development the way Donovan is at the very minimum.

NHL isn't gong to see guys like Neil anymore, he was the last of a generation, and one of the best.

Totally, we really need these legacy guys in the fold.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I don’t stand anywhere firm on Boucher. The puck has been made. And he will probably be a fan favorite by the time he gets here. I think we’re gonna have fun watching a team with Tyler Boucher on it

 

[lancepitlick]

Not really … teams like a Edmonton, Florida, and Toronto aren’t able to add the pieces they need. They need low cap hit players on ELC’s and their bottom 6 doesn’t get it done.

Tampa’s been paying a premium to stock their bottom 6. Our challenge is further magnified because we can’t attract FA’s as well as other markets to replenish our talent pool. Every prospect we give away is adding time on the next lengthy tear down.

You don't think Toronto or Tampa could trade a 1st round pick for an ELC 3rd/4th line goon?

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Tkachuk played his entire pre NHL with a cage on, there is no fighting at all in the USNTDP and NCAA, doesn’t really fit there.

Boucher will be hitting a ton, he’s not going to be an enforcer. He’ll scrap when needed, won’t be looking for it, won’t be intimidating NHLers with his fighting.

He’s not going to play the same game as Neil because they aren’t similar players/prospects, nor are the playing a similar role.

He’ll hit and answer the bell, he’s not going to be fighting Wilson or Reeves, and he’s not going to be intimidating guys with his fighting prowess. He’ll make guys look over their shoulder grabbing the puck like Neil, and they will know he’s on the ice. But not because they don’t want to scrap.

Like Mann said, expecting him to be Wilson is unfair. He’s not going to be an intimidating guy like him.

I’m not sure why were trying to imagine him into a role he isn’t going to fill.

The difference between the 2 players, the roles, and the way they would be looked at they will have entering the NHL are so incredibly different, Neil had 600 PIMs in 2 pro seasons before entering the league, he literally fought his way into the league as one of the most feared fighters in the league as a rookie.

The Neil we know of his last decade or so was 20ish pounds smaller than Neil entering the league as well, he was a 6’1, 230ish machine. Sens will never have another player like Neil, unfortunately.

Boucher is going to be valuable, and brings a unique skill set, but there is no need in putting unrealistic expectations on a guy, our own head scout doesn’t want those expectations.

I get your argument of not expecting that from him, I'm just confused as to why you think there is no possibility that he could develop into that. Maybe it is just my interpretation of the statements you are making and the words you are using but it comes across as a bit absolute as if it is an impossibility.

Part of why I am confused about it is that fighting is a skill and like any other skill, it can be developed through proper technical training. I have trained and have a fair amount of knowledge about boxing, mixed martial arts and martial arts in general. I understand a lot of the technical side and how the skill of fighting can be developed. I also understand the mechanics behind generating power, how to maximize it and how to teach others those mechanics.

Hockey fighting is unique but there is a lot of overlap with boxing and mma for the technical side of it and a lot of enforcers end up cross training to become better hockey fighters. I don't understand why a hockey player can't develop the skill of fighting if they decide to cross train. I am also confused as to why a physically powerful athlete can't become an intimidating fighter in something like hockeyfights where the main factor of intimidation is power.

I'm not sure if you watch the UFC or not but they have had plenty of NCAA wrestlers transition after their NCAA careers into MMA training, and some of them who had probably never thrown a punch in their life before hand end up becoming big power punchers. There are also a handful of former NFL players and NCAA football players that also transitioned into mma and with a bit of training they were able to throw some pretty heavy punches.

So are you suggesting that you don't think Boucher can learn the skill of fighting and learn how throw powerful punches? Or are you arguing that he won't have an interest in developing that skillset or because of his role he won't engage in it much?

I'm not saying there is a guarantee he will be an intimidating fighter, I just think it is possible that he gets developed into it. A lot of those wrestlers in the UFC fall in love with their hands once they learn to throw with power and often neglect using their wrestling once they have that power punching ability. I think when a person learns to generate real power behind their punches that it makes them a lot more confident and willing to fight. Boucher will get challenged because of his hits so if he does develop the skill set up fighting and learns to throw with real power, I could see him fighting more frequently and being intimidating.

 

[OD99]

I get your argument of not expecting that from him, I'm just confused as to why you think there is no possibility that he could develop into that. Maybe it is just my interpretation of the statements you are making and the words you are using but it comes across as a bit absolute as if it is an impossibility.

Part of why I am confused about it is that fighting is a skill and like any other skill, it can be developed through proper technical training. I have trained and have a fair amount of knowledge about boxing, mixed martial arts and martial arts in general. I understand a lot of the technical side and how the skill of fighting can be developed. I also understand the mechanics behind generating power, how to maximize it and how to teach others those mechanics.

Hockey fighting is unique but there is a lot of overlap with boxing and mma for the technical side of it and a lot of enforcers end up cross training to become better hockey fighters. I don't understand why a hockey player can't develop the skill of fighting if they decide to cross train. I am also confused as to why a physically powerful athlete can't become an intimidating fighter in something like hockeyfights where the main factor of intimidation is power.

I'm not sure if you watch the UFC or not but they have had plenty of NCAA wrestlers transition after their NCAA careers into MMA training, and some of them who had probably never thrown a punch in their life before hand end up becoming big power punchers. There are also a handful of former NFL players and NCAA football players that also transitioned into mma and with a bit of training they were able to throw some pretty heavy punches.

So are you suggesting that you don't think Boucher can learn the skill of fighting and learn how throw powerful punches? Or are you arguing that he won't have an interest in developing that skillset or because of his role he won't engage in it much?

I'm not saying there is a guarantee he will be an intimidating fighter, I just think it is possible that he gets developed into it. A lot of those wrestlers in the UFC fall in love with their hands once they learn to throw with power and often neglect using their wrestling once they have that power punching ability. I think when a person learns to generate real power behind their punches that it makes them a lot more confident and willing to fight. Boucher will get challenged because of his hits so if he does develop the skill set up fighting and learns to throw with real power, I could see him fighting more frequently and being intimidating.

That is all possible but comparing this to MMA now?

How much time away from trying to play hockey better does he dedicate to fighting? MMA players focus only on fighting, not on skating, shooting, IQ, etc...

Seems to be a lot of, "in the very best case scenario, IF he does X, Y, Z then he will be good" type of suggestions.

Also, you need to like to fight and be willing to fight.

"It isn't the size of the dog in the fight but the amount of fight in the dog" is a true statement. Did Boucher ever dream to be a tough guy who fights? If not, he probably focuses on trying to score more and be a better hockey player overall for quite a while before throwing in the towel to be a fighter.