Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[Dotter]

If the measure is McDavid, then the DRW have never had an elite player..

Of course not. McDavid is generational. Elite is McKinnon, Matthews, Draisaitl, prime Crosby, Prime Kane, ect.

I don't think Larkin, Barkov, Tkachuck, Reinhart, Verahaeghe are elite.

That's my interpretation.

I mean the "elite" guys you are claiming were had cheap trade (Tkachuck) or cheap trade (Bobrovsky) and Barkov (2nd overall) which Yzerman scored two 2nd overall equivalent players in both Seider and Raymond. So based on your argument of 'elite', Wings should be on their way to compete for a cup after a couple trades for their 'elite' talent on the cheap.

Does Yzerman have a reputation for making great trades? yes/no

If Panthers can make a few key trades to help win a cup, then why can't one of the better trading GMs in the NHL do it?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Of course not. McDavid is generational. Elite is McKinnon, Matthews, Draisaitl, prime Crosby, Prime Kane, ect.

I don't think Larkin, Barkov, Tkachuck, Reinhart, Verahaeghe are elite.

That's my interpretation.

I mean the "elite" guys you are claiming were had cheap trade (Tkachuck) or cheap trade (Bobrovsky) and Barkov (2nd overall) which Yzerman scored two 2nd overall equivalent players in both Seider and Raymond. So based on your argument of 'elite', Wings should be on their way to compete for a cup after a couple trades for their 'elite' talent on the cheap.

Does Yzerman have a reputation for making great trades? yes/no

If Panthers can make a few key trades to help win a cup, then why can't one of the better trading GMs in the NHL do it?

Sorry are you suggesting Seider and Raymond today are equally as good NHLers as Tkachuk and Barkov?

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Sorry are you suggesting Seider and Raymond today are equally as good NHLers as Tkachuk and Barkov?

You know he's not.

The idea is that Seider and Raymond are upper end level young players and the expectation is that they have the talent to grow into cornerstones. It's why people want them here for 8 year deals at 8M+.

So no, TODAY, they're not as good as Tkachuk and Barkov. But Tkachuk has 5 NHL seasons on both of them and Barkov 8.

Well barkov had 80 points this season and tkatchuk 88. Let's not talk about past seasons let's talk about when they won the cup. Larkin took about 5 years to hit his stride in the league but he is a ppg 2 way center that is highly underrated both in the league and by wings fans.

Kane is called Showtime and has 3 cups for a reason. Trying to twist that because of his age and surgery is fair but so far he's already proved everyone wrong including myself.

Our goalie needs improving but realistically if Raymond takes another big step this year we are going to be in awesome shape to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or 2 depending how lucky we get.

No we're not winning the cup with this roster but acting like we needs a 24 year old first overall pick to do that is silly.

Would you rather have Yakupov (1st OA 2012) or kucherov (58th OA 2011)?

Which player helps you win a cup?

I'm done going over this with you. You don't care at all what I'm saying. If you did, you'd realize that I'm not calling for them to tank or to say that they need some magical high first round pick to come save them.

Onto the next point though...

The Red Wings have some very serious faults that they need to prove are resolved before they can consider a playoff run. Talbot, Lyon, Campbell, or whoever need to give them better goaltending than last year. If they don't, I don't care how good Larkin, Kane, Tank, and Raymond are, they're not going anywhere.

It's also going to be a fools errand to just assume that we get a full 82 out of Kane, Larkin, and Tarasenko. Kane and Tank are older and slower. Larkin seems to be a magnet for getting banged up because he's our best player and teams like to take runs at him.

And their defense is relying very heavily on Chiarot playing on his off side, Edvinsson in his first full year, potentially Johansson in his first year, and then a smattering of Holl, Maatta, and Petry eating bottom minutes. The defense with no further moves is potentially a real weak point if Edvinsson doesn't take a huge step right away.

The Red Wings have a lot of work to do to be in "awesome shape" to make the playoffs. They certainly have the talent on the roster. They just need to avoid the injury bug and if someone goes down to not go completely in the tank for a month. There was no excuse for missing the playoffs this past season. Go 3-16 instead of 2-17 in February and March and you're in.

 

[Dotter]

Sorry are you suggesting Seider and Raymond today are equally as good NHLers as Tkachuk and Barkov?

Nope. They are on their way up. It took Hedman 5 years to hit his stride. I suspect the same for Seider.

 

[Euro Twins]

I don't think anyone is saying that the focus should be on a particular number in terms of where someone was drafted , but that the truly top talent is usually at the very top of the draft. Seider and Raymond may get to that point, but right now they are "top 2" talents of their draft years because there were many busts in the top 5 those years.

Ok but it doesn't change shit. If we drafted one of those top 2 talents that ended as a bust we would be worse off. We did draft the best players in those drafts. End of story. Not because of this or that. Because they ended up being better and it's that simple.

 

[DanielMarois]

Ok but it doesn't change shit. If we drafted one of those top 2 talents that ended as a bust we would be worse off. We did draft the best players in those drafts. End of story. Not because of this or that. Because they ended up being better and it's that simple.

No argument, the drafting has been excellent, especially the first round.

 

[crashnburnluder]

I hate when people compare players when never comparing when they broke out. It took Tkachuk to take the next step. Different play style and, Raymond has played on worst teams then Tkachuk has ever had to, but at this point in their career they are within a .01 point per game rate between them.

Yes Raymond could stall, or maybe he becomes elite. Hell Barkov wasn't a point per game player till season 5. Barkov was also a 2nd overall.

Lets see if this players can really take steps over the next 3ish years. If Seider and Raymond can take that elite step and Danielson, Kasper, MBN, ASP, can come in and be what Seider and Raymond are now, we will be pretty damn good.

 

[SantosHalper]

Alot of strange takes going on here...if folks wants to argue that Florida does not have elite players then fill your boots...

When Detroit has multiple roster players who have and are capable again of putting up 95plus pts and playing incredible D and winning Vezinas then our imitation of their formula will be complete.


Who...Howe?

SY never was as good or dominant

I didn't say that, i think Barkov is elite hockey player. But the thing is that Wings ain't finished product yet and often these elites pop out of nowhere. Wings had fair share of them and other teams had as well the likes of Bergeron, Point, Kucherov etc... just because they ain't elite in their their teenage years, doesn't mean that can't rise to become elite players later on. When they are actually done developing. But hockey is a team sport, it takes a effort from everybody and the team that usually has the best depth and is best defensively wins.

And talk about weird takes, if you think Wings never had elite players. In his era, Yzerman was 3rd best player only behind Gretzky and Lemieux and many cups did those two win after the supportive cast was taken away? Lidström is greatest d-man in the history and his biggest rivals Bourque and Pronger, whom many consider elite, didn't win cups until they played for a team that was deep.

 

[Henkka]

But hockey is a team sport, it takes a effort from everybody and the team that usually has the best depth and is best defensively wins.

And talk about weird takes, if you think Wings never had elite players. In his era, Yzerman was 3rd best player only behind Gretzky and Lemieux and many cups did those two win after the supportive cast was taken away? Lidström is greatest d-man in the history and his biggest rivals Bourque and Pronger, whom many consider elite, didn't win cups until they played for a team that was deep.

Florida has been exactly this, as well as Vegas.

Colrado was more of total offensive firepower, kind of different.

Tampa was defensive-minded Cup winner too, as Lalonde part of the coaching and developing their system.

Washington was also good defensively, BArry Trotz-coached team.
St. Louis Blues was maybe most defensive, or at least lacking elite offensive star power.

Pittsburgh 2016 & 2017 was offensive. But those Pittsburgh years are pretty far away, 5 of the last 6 winners have been defensive-styled teams. 5/8 if we count also Pens years. Still more defensive winners. Of course Cup winners have also nice bunch of skill but those teams are not like Colorado or Edmonton.

Superstars just will fill your cap, and you miss the winning depth.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I didn't say that, i think Barkov is elite hockey player. But the thing is that Wings ain't finished product yet and often these elites pop out of nowhere. Wings had fair share of them and other teams had as well the likes of Bergeron, Point, Kucherov etc... just because they ain't elite in their their teenage years, doesn't mean that can't rise to become elite players later on. When they are actually done developing. But hockey is a team sport, it takes a effort from everybody and the team that usually has the best depth and is best defensively wins.

And talk about weird takes, if you think Wings never had elite players. In his era, Yzerman was 3rd best player only behind Gretzky and Lemieux and many cups did those two win after the supportive cast was taken away? Lidström is greatest d-man in the history and his biggest rivals Bourque and Pronger, whom many consider elite, didn't win cups until they played for a team that was deep.

Oh my good God...

1... I never said Seider and Raymond aren't good, I said we're not Florida until our guys, Raymond, Seider or whomever, achieve the same level of individual success as those Panthers, then and only then can we start to compare ourselves and hope for the same team success..

2...I never said the DRW have not had elite players..We have...however, if McDavid "is the bar" for what elite is, then no we have not...

That's it, absolutely nothing else said or inferred..

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Superstars just will fill your cap, and you miss the winning depth.

The mental gymnastics being done here is wild...

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Florida has been exactly this, as well as Vegas.

Colrado was more of total offensive firepower, kind of different.

Tampa was defensive-minded Cup winner too, as Lalonde part of the coaching and developing their system.

Washington was also good defensively, BArry Trotz-coached team.
St. Louis Blues was maybe most defensive, or at least lacking elite offensive star power.

Pittsburgh 2016 & 2017 was offensive. But those Pittsburgh years are pretty far away, 5 of the last 6 winners have been defensive-styled teams. 5/8 if we count also Pens years. Still more defensive winners. Of course Cup winners have also nice bunch of skill but those teams are not like Colorado or Edmonton.

Superstars just will fill your cap, and you miss the winning depth.

Washington was not that great defensively in that run from an underlying metric standpoint. I believe they were outplayed 5v5 but benefitted from being incredibly opportunistic throughout the playoffs. Their PP was elite as well.

 

[Henkka]

Washington was not that great defensively in that run from an underlying metric standpoint. I believe they were outplayed 5v5 but benefitted from being incredibly opportunistic throughout the playoffs. Their PP was elite as well.

Their scoring chances were always more quality (thanks to great passing from Bäcks & Kuz) Ovechkin elite scoring of course, and nice screening plays.

Advanced stats could not really tell that, because you have to understand more, not just look on basic numbers.

That's what I hope our hockey will be some day. More quality, always. Then you don't have to outplay, just outscore.

And same at opposite ways, defend well against quality scoring. Direct shots against monster Cossa on the way...

 

[lilidk]

You can't compare Raymond to Barkov one is center and much younger, when he starts playing in NHL the other is wing. One is elite another is very good. You don't have to have elite players in your team , like Barkov or McKinnon, or Makar to win the cup. You need very good coach and many very good players. We don't know if our coach is good , but we don't have enough good players.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

You can't compare Raymond to Barkov one is center and much younger, when he starts playing in NHL the other is wing. One is elite another is very good. You don't have to have elite players in your team , like Barkov or McKinnon, or Makar to win the cup. You need very good coach and many very good players. We don't know if our coach is good , but we don't have enough good players.

Come on, I get it, the Yzerplan....this isn't about whether it's in track or not, or whether it has or will bear fruit, but to suggest you don't need elite players is not statistically supported...

 

[Mr Nimbus]

But everyone's answer ultimately depends on how long they expected the rebuild to take. I expected be in the playoffs last year. My main issue is the handling of the defense and goalies. How many number 3 goalies and number 5-7 dmen can you get on 1 nhl roster? I hate to beat a dead horse, but I still cannot wrap my head around acquiring holl and petry for any reason. Especially since it blocked Ed. At least perron isn't back.

 

[SantosHalper]

1... I never said Seider and Raymond aren't good, I said we're not Florida until our guys, Raymond, Seider or whomever, achieve the same level of individual success as those Panthers, then and only then can we start to compare ourselves and hope for the same team success..

2...I never said the DRW have not had elite players..We have...however, if McDavid "is the bar" for what elite is, then no we have not...

Offensively we are already there but back end is still far from it. I don't see Wings having 100-point guys or 50-goal guys in the future, offensively this is pretty much it 260-280 goal team. Naturally names will change and i believe there will be better players defensively but scoring level stays the same. PPG 1st line and 0.5 PPG 2nd & 3rd lines, we can start comparing us offensively.

Hockey existed before McDavid, what's the point use only him as the bar? And if he's the bar, then there's been about 10-15 elite players in the history of hockey and that doesn't make any sense.

 

[lilidk]

Come on, I get it, the Yzerplan....this isn't about whether it's in track or not, or whether it has or will bear fruit, but to suggest you don't need elite players is not statistically supported...

First year Vegas was nothing, but bunch of well picked 2-3 liners, they went to finals. Our guys Danielson, Kasper, Mazur, MBN , AJo haven't even started NHL yet. Edvinsson, Berggren , Soderblom have very little NHL experience. They all could become very good support players
Only Seider in our team could become elite

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Offensively we are already there but back end is still far from it. I don't see Wings having 100-point guys or 50-goal guys in the future, offensively this is pretty much it 260-280 goal team. Naturally names will change and i believe there will be better players defensively but scoring level stays the same. PPG 1st line and 0.5 PPG 2nd & 3rd lines, we can start comparing us offensively.

Hockey existed before McDavid, what's the point use only him as the bar? And if he's the bar, then there's been about 10-15 elite players in the history of hockey and that doesn't make any sense.

Santos, I can not stress this enough, I do not use McDavid as the bar precisely because of what you said(though I think he is top 5 or 6 of all time)

Elite is:

- 90pt forwards who can play high end D as well, or
- 110pt dynamic forwards, or
- 50 pt Dmen who can play 30mins a game in all situations, or
- 70pt dynamic dmen, or
- Vezina winning(or nominating) level goalies

You need some of those elements to win it all(on top of good depth, cheap ELCs and of course luck)

First year Vegas was nothing, but bunch of well picked 2-3 liners, they went to finals. Our guys Danielson, Kasper, Mazur, MBN , AJo haven't even started NHL yet. Edvinsson, Berggren , Soderblom have very little NHL experience. They all could become very good support players
Only Seider in our team could become elite

Did they win or did they fail?

Nobody is saying those aforementioned DRW prospect won't hit elite status, but if none do and nobody else is, the DRW will not ever win

 

[lilidk]

Santos, I can not stress this enough, I do not use McDavid as the bar precisely because of what you said(though I think he is top 5 or 6 of all time)

Elite is:

- 90pt forwards who can play high end D as well, or
- 110pt dynamic forwards, or
- 50 pt Dmen who can play 30mins a game in all situations, or
- 70pt dynamic dmen, or
- Vezina winning(or nominating) level goalies

You need some of those elements to win it all(on top of good depth, cheap ELCs and of course luck)



Did they win or did they fail?

Nobody is saying those aforementioned DRW prospect won't hit elite status, but if none do and nobody else is, the DRW will not ever win

Florida has only one elite player and we potentially have only one also.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Florida has only one elite player and we potentially have only one also.

I'm sorry but Tkachuks 104 and 109 pt seasons suggest he is elite, even if this year he had less

And Bob is a proven Vezina winning and nominated goalie...he is an elite NHL goalie

 

[SantosHalper]

Santos, I can not stress this enough, I do not use McDavid as the bar precisely because of what you said(though I think he is top 5 or 6 of all time)

Elite is:

- 90pt forwards who can play high end D as well, or
- 110pt dynamic forwards, or
- 50 pt Dmen who can play 30mins a game in all situations, or
- 70pt dynamic dmen, or
- Vezina winning(or nominating) level goalies

You need some of those elements to win it all(on top of good depth, cheap ELCs and of course luck)

Fair enough. IMO being a elite it's not about the points or trophies, it's the all around effect on the team. Style of play and match ups dictate a lot.

 

[Euro Twins]

First year Vegas was nothing, but bunch of well picked 2-3 liners, they went to finals. Our guys Danielson, Kasper, Mazur, MBN , AJo haven't even started NHL yet. Edvinsson, Berggren , Soderblom have very little NHL experience. They all could become very good support players
Only Seider in our team could become elite

No. Raymond can also

 

[Indrid Cold]

Florida has been exactly this, as well as Vegas.

Colrado was more of total offensive firepower, kind of different.

Tampa was defensive-minded Cup winner too, as Lalonde part of the coaching and developing their system.

Washington was also good defensively, BArry Trotz-coached team.
St. Louis Blues was maybe most defensive, or at least lacking elite offensive star power.

Pittsburgh 2016 & 2017 was offensive. But those Pittsburgh years are pretty far away, 5 of the last 6 winners have been defensive-styled teams. 5/8 if we count also Pens years. Still more defensive winners. Of course Cup winners have also nice bunch of skill but those teams are not like Colorado or Edmonton.

Superstars just will fill your cap, and you miss the winning depth.

I agree with you, even on the last part. I think Yzerman is going for a deep team, and not a top heavy one.

 

[lilidk]

No. Raymond can also

And I hope you are right