When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

RedHawkDown

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Elite D. Seider and Edvinsson are good. ASP is in the SHL. Interesting prospect for sure, but we need to see him here.
So no elite players but lots of good younger ones. Is there an Eichel, Yzerman can trade for? Is the a coming UFA, like how Vegas got Pietrangelo? Imo that’s why Yzerman needs to do. And maybe that’s his plan on how to get the elite guys he knows he needs.
Once again I’m not sure you know what an elite player is.

Seider is an elite defenseman. He was just signed to an 8.5M deal that was considered very fair value. If an (adequately paid) 8.5M dman is not elite, can you please define what is?

I also love the example of Eichel that’s brought up over and over as if he’s ever been more than a PPG player at best.
 
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nbwingsfan

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I think Larkin is great. But he’s not in the elite group that Eichel is in. Larkin is more on the Horvat level. He’s good but certainly not elite.
Again, imo Yzerman will use some of his young talent to get guys he hopes will be the elite guys he’s missing. I don’t know who he will target though. Maybe Marner for a start?
I think you have no idea who Larkin is :laugh:

Horvat has averaged 67pts over the last 3 seasons (pace)

Larkin has averaged 81 over the the last 3 seasons (pace)

Eichel has paced for 79 over the last 3 seasons (pace)

Who’s the outlier here ?
 
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Dotter

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This thread is confusing. Nobody can describe what 'elite' is...

If Crosby, McDavid and Ovechkin are elite, then not many cup winners have 'elite' players. If Eichel is elite, then most playoff (and bubble) teams have elite talent. Lucas Raymond and Dylan Larkin are elite based on those standards.

Seider, according to NHL.com, is a top 20 defenseman in the NHL right now... and he's the youngest. Seider is now being put in a more offensive role, his rank will go up. He already has 5 points in 8 games; tied with Roman Josi and one less point than Quinn Hughes.
 

FMichael

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I think Larkin is great. But he’s not in the elite group that Eichel is in. Larkin is more on the Horvat level. He’s good but certainly not elite.
Again, imo Yzerman will use some of his young talent to get guys he hopes will be the elite guys he’s missing. I don’t know who he will target though. Maybe Marner for a start?
I guess one could make a case for Marner - however I don’t believe Yzerman would be willing to part with what it cost to obtain him.

Why on earth not?

Nobody said they had to be the Red Wings of old by now when it was Cup or bust, but there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be a comfortable lock for a playoff spot at this point.
2 parts: 1 part Detroit doesn’t have that generational talent via the draft that helps propel the rebuild and 1 part Lalonde is not a very good coach.
 

Bleedred

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Why on earth not?

Nobody said they had to be the Red Wings of old by now when it was Cup or bust, but there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be a comfortable lock for a playoff spot at this point.
Because Holland completely FUBAR’d the team and it’s only been 5 years since he’s been out.

Look how long it’s taken a lot of these other teams who are still bad.

I think 2026 was probably how long they needed to be a consistent playoff making team. Maybe some attainable success making the playoffs before that, but not sustainable playoff making success.

However, some of these contracts and signings Yzerman threw out in the meantime haven’t done much to help. I’m not sure if they’ll ever be a consistent playoff threat under him.
 

BB88

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You realize IF applies to… every single team ever… right?

IF the wings drafted Kakko in 2019 everyone would have been touting that they got their elite forward. Instead they drafted Seider, and everyone thought they were insane with that pick.

Guess what happened?

For Detroit fans every one of their prospects could turn into a superstar and can’t be judged for the 1st 8 years

Because wait maaaaaybe they develop into one….

How do you argue that the forward group you are building is going to be elite, with realistic reasonings?

You don’t have a single superstar forward, your 1C is at his mid prime and not a high end 1C and the chances of him suddenly turning into one are quite low. Kane& Tarasenko are old and past their prime

Raymond is the best bet and he’s so far away from getting into McDavid/Drai/Mackinnon/Kucherov etc tier

It looks like the Carolina group with less quality depth, no game breakers to win the big games
 
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SirKillalot

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Nobody said they had to be the Red Wings of old by now when it was Cup or bust, but there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be a comfortable lock for a playoff spot at this point.
There is absolutely no reason they should be a comfortable lock for a playoff spot at this time.
Yes, they could have been a playoff team if all the free agents wanted to go to Detroit like in the past. But they don't.

So the absolute majority has to go through draft. Under the current regime that started 5 years and now 6 drafts ago. Ideally you would want to try to get 2, if lucky 3 players out of each draft. If it goes beyond that and you get 4+ you are a saint.

So 2019 draft:
Moritz Seider on the team
Albert Johansson getting into the team now
Elmer Soderblom - been given opportunities
, might be back, but hasn't elevated himself yet, big guy though so like Rasmussen might come with time or he goes back to Sweden.
Antti Tuomisto has been talked some about, could make it as depth d-man. More likely won't, but been some chatter around him.
Robert Mastrosimone didn't want to sign with Detroit, didn't look like they had a specific plan to sign him either with how development and dialog went.

2020 Draft:
Lucas Raymond on the team - top six forward and improving
William Wallinder expected to get a realistic shot at making it or potentially trade bait for offense.
Donovan Sebrango got traded away to Ottawa in the deal that landed Debrincat. Viro is the only other that been talked some about as a depth guy, but size wise most likely don't end up being a fit for NHL. The others isn't paning out or was nepotism picks.

2021 Draft:
Simon Edvinsson has now made the team and will be Top four, is improving, can end up being top pair d-man.
Sebastian Cossa - Potential future starter goalie
Shai Buium - Bottom four defenseman prospect
Carter Mazur - Bottom six forward - potential middle six upside
Redmond Savage - Bottom six forward


There is also Liam Dower-Nilsson in the mix, I don't think his development will take him there but isn't one that has been given up on. But, realistically those four outside Edvinsson are those they has been talk about. You never know with goalies, it could take Cossa two years, it could take five. All indications lean towards him keep improving and they happy with his development. Carter Mazur has been getting praise from different people in the organization in different interviews and also Red Savage has gotten praise and seem to be a player type they like. It also look like they like Shai Buium where they most likely option is him being a bottom four defenseman who might be a cover guy higher up. Realistically one hope Cossa makes all the steps and one of the two forwards. A good bonus if Buium makes it, but depth defenseman can also come from elsewhere.

2022 Draft:
Marco Kasper - Middle six center / forward - Could have been on the team this year, will get chances, he might end up sticking with the team, if not one more year in AHL top minutes and then from next year will by all accounts be with the team.
The rest is in the too early scope. There are players they like. Dylan James who is in college this season, can even be there next year and if he isn't he would be in AHL. Needs to add weight and be given some time. Dmitri Buchelnikov is doing well in KHL, probably is one they want over to AHL next year, would be given a chance in camp before next season to potentially upset and make the team but realistically one AHL year first. Amadeus Lombardi have always been getting good reviews and looks to be someone they like for a bottom six or middle six role down the road.

2023 Draft:
Nate Danielson - they like a lot and he also been getting praise from other players and a pain in the ass to play against, among them Connor Bedard. Hope is future top six center, more on the responsible side that extravagant offense. But on the projectory of becoming a reliable top six center who at worst is a really solid 3C guy.
Axel Sandin-Pellikka - in SHL doing very solid as a young offensive defenseman with high light reel involvements. Projected top four defenseman.
Trey Augustine - The other projected starting goalie in Detroit system and just like Cossa it can take 2 years, it can take 5 years. If one of the two makes it, great!


Of the others Brady Cleveland who is an all defensive defenseman is the one most chatted about and who I guess most other pro scouts talked about. Could he be a solid guy on the NHL level waits to be seen. Andrew Gibson was traded to NSH for Jesse Kiiskinen. So a defenseman who got some buzz, also seen as a defensive defenseman, so deemed to be a surplus of potential talent in the position got traded for a forward who is doing well in Finnish Liiga. So Kiiskinen might make it, but would take 2-3 years minimum.
I guess Noah Dower-Nilsson is the other who got some chatter. Good enough that they drafter the younger brother after drafting the older earlier.

2024 Draft:
Michael Brandsegg-Nygaard - Gotten much praise so far. Also playing in Skelleftea in SHL. The team wanted him to go to Grand Rapids. He opted to try win a Championship in SHL and work on his offense there. Both options has its plusses and minuses. NHL ready body, hopefully can add tools to the toolbox to solidify as a top six winger and not middle six winger.

Of the others is too early to tell. Max Plante been mentioned several times. Ondrej Becher as well, but needs time.

So basically 4 guys sort of made the team now, 10 guys in a realistic mix of getting there. Others with a long shot opportunity. So let's say 14 guys make the team, that is just over 2 guys per draft which is realistic. Obviously the more the merrier, but also keeping in mind some guys on the team is staying and if one add others through trade or FA, this is how its going to get done. Now of course some have to reach further than expected and become "stars" for the team to be a contender.
2023 Entry
DraftNum.RoundPlayerPosDrafted FromGPGAPtsPIM
2022 Entry
DraftNum.RoundPlayerPosDrafted FromGPGAPtsPIM
2021 Entry
DraftNum.RoundPlayerPosDrafted FromGPGAPtsPIM
2020 Entry
DraftNum.RoundPlayerPosDrafted FromGPGAPtsPIM
2019 Entry
DraftNum.RoundPlayerPosDrafted FromGPGAPtsPIM
2024 Entry NHL Totals
DraftNum.RoundPlayerPosDrafted FromGPGAPtsPIM
2024 Entry151Michael Brandsegg-NygardRMora IK [Swe-1]
2024 Entry472Max PlanteLU.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2024 Entry803Ondrej BecherCPrince George Cougars [WHL]
2024 Entry1264Landon MillerGSoo Greyhounds [OHL]
2024 Entry1445John WhippleDU.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2024 Entry1766Charlie ForslundLFalu IF (Sweden-3)
2024 Entry2037Austin BakerLU.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2024 Entry2087Fisher ScottDDubuque Fighting Saints [USHL]
2023 Entry91Nate DanielsonCBrandon Wheat Kings [WHL]
2023 Entry171Axel Sandin-PellikaDSkelleftea AIK Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2023 Entry412Trey AugustineGU.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2023 Entry422Andrew GibsonDSoo Greyhounds [OHL]
2023 Entry472Brady ClevelandDU.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2023 Entry733Noah Dower-NilssonLVastra Frolunda Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2023 Entry1174Larry KeenanDCulver Academy (U.S. H.S.)
2023 Entry1375Jack PhelanDSioux Falls Stampede [USHL]
2023 Entry1475Kevin BickerLMannheim (Germany Jrs.)
2023 Entry1696Rudy GuimondGTaft School (Conn. H.S.)
2023 Entry2017Emmitt FinnieLKamloops Blazers [WHL]
2022 Entry81Marco KasperCRogle BK Angelholm [SweHL]50112
2022 Entry402Dylan JamesLSioux City Musketeers [USHL]
2022 Entry522Dmitri BuchelnikovLSKA St. Petersburg (Rus. Jr)
2022 Entry1054Anton JohanssonDLeksands IF Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2022 Entry1134Amadeus LombardiCFlint Firebirds [OHL]
2022 Entry1294Maximilian KilpinenCOrebro HK Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2022 Entry1375Tnias MathurinDNorth Bay Battalion [OHL]
2022 Entry2017Owen MehlenbacherFMuskegon Lumberjacks [USHL]
2022 Entry2127Brennan AliCAvon Old Farms (Conn. H.S.)
2021 Entry61Simon EdvinssonDVastra Frolunda Jr. [Swe-Jr]3344818
2021 Entry151Sebastian CossaGEdmonton Oil Kings [WHL]
2021 Entry362Shai BuiumDSioux City Musketeers [USHL]
2021 Entry703Carter MazurLTri-City Storm [USHL]
2021 Entry1144Redmond SavageCU.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]
2021 Entry1345Liam Dower-NilssonRVastra Frolunda Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2021 Entry1555Oscar PlandowskiDCharlottetown Islanders [QMJHL]
2021 Entry1666Pasquale ZitoCWindsor Spitfires [OHL]
2020 Entry41Lucas RaymondLFrolunda HC [SweHL]2467211018274
2020 Entry322William WallinderDMODO Hockey Ornskoldsvik [Swe-1]
2020 Entry512Theodor NiederbachCFrolunda Jrs. (Sweden)
2020 Entry552Cross HanasLPortland Winterhawks [WHL]
2020 Entry633Donovan SebrangoDKitchener Rangers [OHL]
2020 Entry703Eemil ViroDTPS Turku [SM-liiga]
2020 Entry974Sam StangeRSioux Falls Stampede [USHL]
2020 Entry1074Jan BednarGKarlovy Vary HC [Czech]
2020 Entry1325Alex CottonDLethbridge Hurricanes [WHL]
2020 Entry1566Kyle AucoinDTri-City Storm [USHL]
2020 Entry1877Kienan DraperRSt. Andrews College (Ontario H.S.)
2020 Entry2037Chase BradleyLOmaha Lancers [USHL]
2019 Entry61Moritz SeiderDMannheim Eagles [DEL]25422117139135
2019 Entry352Antti TuomistoDAssat [Finland Jrs.]
2019 Entry542Robert MastrosimoneLChicago Steel [USHL]
2019 Entry602Albert JohanssonDFarjestads [Sweden Jrs.]20000
2019 Entry663Albin GreweLDjurgardens [Sweden Jrs.]
2019 Entry974Ethan PhillipsCSioux Falls Stampede [USHL]
2019 Entry1285Cooper MooreDBrunswick Prep [Conn. H.S.]
2019 Entry1596Elmer SoderblomLFrolunda [Sweden Jrs.]215388
2019 Entry1776Gustav BerglundDFrolunda [Sweden Jrs.]
2019 Entry1907Kirill TyutyayevLYekaterinburg [Russia Jrs.]
2019 Entry1917Carter GylanderGSherwood Park Crusaders [AJHL]

Detroit Draft history

2 parts: 1 part Detroit doesn’t have that generational talent via the draft that helps propel the rebuild and 1 part Lalonde is not a very good coach.
Its just bull that Lalonde isn't a good coach. People without patience say these things. They improved every year.

Yes, lacking a generational talent like 95% of the teams. However there are talents that need to excel beyond their expectations and others who need to make theirs for the team to become a contender.
 

Kegs

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What team whose best player was equal to or less than Raymond/Larkin won a Stanley Cup in recent memory?
Barkov, eichel, pietrangelo, bobrovski, forsling, reinhart and tkachuk

Stone, eichel, pietrangelo.


Makar, rantanen, MacKinnon, landeskog, Toews.

Kutcherov, Stamkos, vasilevski, hedman,



I could probably keep going. But I think I’ve proven my point.
 

SirKillalot

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You don’t have a single superstar forward, your 1C is at his mid prime and not a high end 1C and the chances of him suddenly turning into one are quite low.

Raymond is the best bet and he’s so far away from getting into McDavid/Drai/Mackinnon/Kucherov etc tier

How many teams have this high end C you talk about? Or high end winger?
Cause if McDavid/Drai/MacKinnon/Kucherov is the measuring stick, there isn't many teams with players up there either.

Larkin is a good center. He's not marketed well. Maybe not seen as "high end", but with also a team around him like Eichel finally got in Vegas its possible for Larkin to be one of the solid parts of a contending team.
 

GrandmaCookie

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This thread is confusing. Nobody can describe what 'elite' is...

If Crosby, McDavid and Ovechkin are elite, then not many cup winners have 'elite' players. If Eichel is elite, then most playoff (and bubble) teams have elite talent. Lucas Raymond and Dylan Larkin are elite based on those standards.

Seider, according to NHL.com, is a top 20 defenseman in the NHL right now... and he's the youngest. Seider is now being put in a more offensive role, his rank will go up. He already has 5 points in 8 games; tied with Roman Josi and one less point than Quinn Hughes.
Franchise: 100+ points players, Norris candidate, Vezina winner.
Elite: PPG players, #1 defenseman, Vezina contender.

How many teams have this high end C you talk about? Or high end winger?
Cause if McDavid/Drai/MacKinnon/Kucherov is the measuring stick, there isn't many teams with players up there either.

Larkin is a good center. He's not marketed well. Maybe not seen as "high end", but with also a team around him like Eichel finally got in Vegas its possible for Larkin to be one of the solid parts of a contending team.
Superstar forward: McDavid, Mackinnon, Draisatl, Kucherov, Panarin, Matthews, Pastrnak, Kaprizov, and maybe Rantanen and Marner. And Barkov for his defensive play. Maybe a couple of other one I forget.
 

Crunchy

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For Detroit fans every one of their prospects could turn into a superstar and can’t be judged for the 1st 8 years

Because wait maaaaaybe they develop into one….

How do you argue that the forward group you are building is going to be elite, with realistic reasonings?
Who's arguing that? Defenseman, Goalie. These are the positions Detroit has invested in.


You don’t have a single superstar forward, your 1C is at his mid prime and not a high end 1C and the chances of him suddenly turning into one are quite low. Kane& Tarasenko are old and past their prime

Raymond is the best bet and he’s so far away from getting into McDavid/Drai/Mackinnon/Kucherov etc tier

It looks like the Carolina group with less quality depth, no game breakers to win the big games
All you're saying here is that you are not very good or simply unwilling to think past tomorrow.

How long did Kucherov take to hit ppg after being drafted? How long did MacKinnon? If everyone knows they will be a superstar, they are taken 1st Overall, if you're lucky 2nd Overall, and if you're the Philadelphia Flyers, 7th Overall. Everything beyond that, well, is not a superstar until they are.

I don't know if the wings will get an elite forward, but Lucas Raymond had 71 points in Year 4 and it took Kucherov 6 years to do that & MacKinnon 5 years. I'm willing to wait and see. In the meantime I'll keep watching the development of my 6' 3" and 6' 6" D studs, along with my 6' 7" stud Goaltender with another stud behind him to boot.

I'd love to have a 1st or 2nd Overall pick and MAYBE get an elite forward from that, but that's not going to happen.
 

SirKillalot

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Superstar forward: McDavid, Mackinnon, Draisatl, Kucherov, Panarin, Matthews, Pastrnak, Kaprizov, and maybe Rantanen and Marner. And Barkov for his defensive play. Maybe a couple of other one I forget.
And among those 11 guys they have combined for 5 Stanley Cups, with MacKinnon and Rantanen having the same one and Kucherov having 2. So that is 4 gone on those three guys.
So that is 1 Stanley Cup total on the other 8 guys.
 
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Dotter

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Raymond is the best bet and he’s so far away from getting into McDavid/Drai/Mackinnon/Kucherov etc tier

How about you and I do a fun little exercise together. You have all these wonderful crystal ball insightful opinions, would you want to do an exercise with me?

How about we analyze all of the 2019-2024 players selected in the draft and find these almighty generational superstars that Yzerman whiffed on. Should be easy, right? Afterall you claim Yzerman is a subpar GM.

There's got to be players past the 1st round that fit your superstar mold, right? I mean if there isn't, doesn't that make ALL GMs in the NHL terrible like Yzerman?

I suspect you ignore this post and carry on with your mindless rhetoric.
 
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GrandmaCookie

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And among those 11 guys they have combined for 5 Stanley Cups, with MacKinnon and Rantanen having the same one and Kucherov having 2. So that is 4 gone on those three guys.
So that is 1 Stanley Cup total on the other 8 guys.
4 of the last 5 cup winners had those.. Vegas is the only exception. Than if you go back 10 years, you have guys like Crosby, Ovechkin and Kane.

McDavid and Drai were 1 game away from a cup.
 

JediOrderPizza

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100pt player would be nice, fact is if the Wings kept going for that with tanking the same people would be talking shit right now for not being a playoff team.

And with the Wings luck still would be without easy to acquire 100pt player.
 

StreetHawk

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Everything with Yzerman and Detroit has to be based on when he arrived in 2019, not when the Wings last made the PO in 2016. In 2024, only guys left from before Yzerman took over are Larkin, Rasmussen, Veleno, and Bergetten.
He did make the decision to move off Hronek who has done well in Vancouver since leaving Detroit. And still waiting on non first rounders that he has drafted to do something at the NHL level.

Other clubs that have been out of the PO for a while include all hired their current GM in 2022.
Ana missing since 2019, and switched GMs from Murray to Verbeek before 2022 TDL. SJ hired Grier just before the 2022 draft and have missed the PO since 2020. Chicago hired Davidson and he promptly sold everything, even 24 year old DCat and 21 year old Dach to tank.

Ana probably the furthest along, but still pending their young F to really develop, plus a very young D group whose most experienced youngsters are only in year 2.
SJ, going to be a while as they will need to turnover their D Core. Very possible that they don't make the PO in the 2020's. Can foresee 25, 26, 27 missing the PO. Would need a couple of the young D to be like Faber of Minny and hit right away when they arrive, plus Askarov to play well early to compete for the PO before the end of the decade.
Chi, didn't draft well pre 2020, so going to take time to add players to the roster. Loaded up with a lot of veterans for the short term, so will take some time as they intergrate their more recent draft picks into the lineup.
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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Barkov, eichel, pietrangelo, bobrovski, forsling, reinhart and tkachuk

Stone, eichel, pietrangelo.
Makar, rantanen, MacKinnon, landeskog, Toews.

Kutcherov, Stamkos, vasilevski, hedman,

I could probably keep going. But I think I’ve proven my point.
No you should’ve quit sooner, You think MacKinnon , Rantanen for example or less than or equal to Raymond and Larkin.
 
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ClydeLee

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100pt player would be nice, fact is if the Wings kept going for that with tanking the same people would be talking shit right now for not being a playoff team.

And with the Wings luck still would be without easy to acquire 100pt player.
Those in the they're doing bad because they aren't in the playoffs camp would still say that... but there's always been 2 views against this rebuild. There's also Those saying they actually needed to tank.

I see Wings fans complain about lottery luck yet many on here were claiming they were never even aiming for top picks. I recall being told that trading for Perlini and Raty was proof they weren't. I've thought they were and should of kept at it even after the Raymond draft. The 2 years after should of been continuing to bottom out years.
 

WetcoastOrca

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It looks like he’s building a franchise that will be stuck in the mushy middle with no real high end forwards but potentially some D that have a shot of getting there.
 

JediOrderPizza

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Those in the they're doing bad because they aren't in the playoffs camp would still say that... but there's always been 2 views against this rebuild. There's also Those saying they actually needed to tank.

I see Wings fans complain about lottery luck yet many on here were claiming they were never even aiming for top picks. I recall being told that trading for Perlini and Raty was proof they weren't. I've thought they were and should of kept at it even after the Raymond draft. The 2 years after should of been continuing to bottom out years.
Once Raymond and Seider were on the team they were not bad enough to get top 3 picks. That was the 21-22 season.

Perlini and Raty, not even sure what you are talking about. Hronek was our leading scorer the season after drafting Raymond, how can you not being any worse? We finished bottom 5.
 

nbwingsfan

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For Detroit fans every one of their prospects could turn into a superstar and can’t be judged for the 1st 8 years

Because wait maaaaaybe they develop into one….

How do you argue that the forward group you are building is going to be elite, with realistic reasonings?

You don’t have a single superstar forward, your 1C is at his mid prime and not a high end 1C and the chances of him suddenly turning into one are quite low. Kane& Tarasenko are old and past their prime

Raymond is the best bet and he’s so far away from getting into McDavid/Drai/Mackinnon/Kucherov etc tier

It looks like the Carolina group with less quality depth, no game breakers to win the big games
So if you don’t have a top 5 player you have no chance at a cup? Got it.

I forgot about all the Cups Boston has won with Pastrnak?

Who were the top 5 offensive players on Vegas, STL or hell even the Bruins in 2011?

What a ridiculous post.
 

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