When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

Barkov, eichel, pietrangelo, bobrovski, forsling, reinhart and tkachuk

Stone, eichel, pietrangelo.


Makar, rantanen, MacKinnon, landeskog, Toews.

Kutcherov, Stamkos, vasilevski, hedman,



I could probably keep going. But I think I’ve proven my point.

“equal to or less than”

 

[ClydeLee]

Once Raymond and Seider were on the team they were not bad enough to get top 3 picks. That was the 21-22 season.

Perlini and Raty, not even sure what you are talking about. Hronek was our leading scorer the season after drafting Raymond, how can you not being any worse? We finished bottom 5.

Not raty, i forgot i mean Fabbri or Erne. Mostly nothing guys they added but Fans said it means they were trying to win

Didnt that next year they addd pieces like Nameskinov. Those were pieces added those years that had fans saying, we arent trying to be bad, we just are. Criticizing Yzerman is very valid to say he absolutely could of been bad on purpose those years. 20-21 and the years after.

In no way is it valid to say they couldn't have been worse. There were frequent red wings fans saying they were not tanking in those years... they could or traded a Hronek then or Mantha then and not waited on it.

 

[SirKillalot]

Not rate, i forgot i mean Fabbri or Erne. They added pieces like Nameskinov. Those were pieces added those years that had fans saying, we arent trying to be bad, we just are. Criticizing Yzerman is very valid to say he absolutely could of been bad on purpose those years. 20-21 and the years after.

In no way is it valid to say they couldn't have been worse. There were frequent red wings fans saying they were not tanking in those years... they could or traded a Hronek then or Mantha then and not waited on it.

I think the only criticisms one can say about Yzerman besides maybe giving out some contracts that were too long, is the fact that one didn't tank long enough.

Obviously tanking is officially not seen upon as something good for the league and you can't really say you are doing it, but probably should have waited one more season and hoped for a top 2-3 pick.

The other thing is maybe some of the guys signed did a bit better than expected.
While some on longer term done worse. That being said those guys are place fillers and there is too much emphasis on them being bad. Some one hoped would do better and maybe could work their way into being a player that would stay beyond being the place filler.

When it comes to Hronek or Mantha. I think Mantha one were waiting for when value is best. He was never an Yzerman-type player. Hronek was more of a does he become good enough to be a piece staying through the whole process or does he has the limits and becomes to old for his qualities to make it worth keeping him and trading him for more future. That took a bit of time I think to see or choose a direction whether him as an offensive defenseman would stick or not. Now he developed also more all-round qualities during his time and after, but guess it was determined he would be "too old" to keep for a projected time window of when a competitive team would be ready.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Not raty, i forgot i mean Fabbri or Erne. Mostly nothing guys they added but Fans said it means they were trying to win

Didnt that next year they addd pieces like Nameskinov. Those were pieces added those years that had fans saying, we arent trying to be bad, we just are. Criticizing Yzerman is very valid to say he absolutely could of been bad on purpose those years. 20-21 and the years after.

In no way is it valid to say they couldn't have been worse. There were frequent red wings fans saying they were not tanking in those years... they could or traded a Hronek then or Mantha then and not waited on it.

Wings fans thought adding "I'm never healthy" Robby Fabbri and 4th liner Adam Erne was trying to win? Yzerman to me when he adds pieces like that are trying to get the team more competitive but I dunno about winning. Hoping it helps the team not to get stuck in bottom dwellar purgatory. Could it then lead to them getting stuck in middle purgatory? Maybe, but we haven't see enough of the prospects yet to determine that.

Everyone looks at todays rosters and assume, yeah this is his final product, complete failure. Fire him.

I just can't get with that, it's been a painful build but until I see bust after bust after bust and then the team is still not close. Then we have issues.

 

[Kegs]

It looks like he’s building a franchise that will be stuck in the mushy middle with no real high end forwards but potentially some D that have a shot of getting there.

To be fair didn’t he inherit this middling team?

“equal to or less than”

Sorry sir. I read wrong. Literally every team that won the cup had way better pieces. And lots of them. Cup teams generally have a few hall of famers on them.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

To be fair didn’t he inherit this middling team?


Sorry sir. I read wrong. Literally every team that won the cup had way better pieces. And lots of them. Cup teams generally have a few hall of famers on them.

True. But isn’t his job to build a contender.

 

[Dotter]

To be fair didn’t he inherit this middling team?


Sorry sir. I read wrong. Literally every team that won the cup had way better pieces. And lots of them. Cup teams generally have a few hall of famers on them.

I would argue Yzerman inherited the worst team in modern history from front to back, top to bottom, loaded with debilitating contracts and trash. It took 3 years just to clean that up.

Then Yzerman follows that up with drafting Seider and Raymond who arguably could be the best players of their respective draft despite not having a #1 pick. That extraordinary and amazing GMing'. I think that is part of the reason why this thread is full of haters.

 

[Kegs]

I would argue Yzerman inherited the worst team in modern history from front to back, top to bottom, loaded with debilitating contracts and trash. It took 3 years just to clean that up.

Then Yzerman follows that up with drafting Seider and Raymond who arguably could be the best players of their respective draft despite not having a #1 pick. That extraordinary and amazing GMing'. I think that is part of the reason why this thread is full of haters.

#6 and #4 are very high draft picks though. Has he drafted anyone worth talking about with a late pick?

 

[SirKillalot]

#6 and #4 are very high draft picks though. Has he drafted anyone worth talking about with a late pick?

Has anyone else done it?

 

[Dotter]

#6 and #4 are very high draft picks though. Has he drafted anyone worth talking about with a late pick?

Review all the late round players drafted by every team from 2019-2024 and tell me who is worth talking about.

 

[Czechboy]

So let's say 14 guys make the team

I enjoyed your post but this part had me confused (which isn't hard to do)

Are you saying that you think 14 of the players drafted from 2019 to 2024 will make the NHL?

 

[odin1981]

O'Reilly was 31st in league scoring and won the Selke Trophy, awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game. The winner is selected by a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association following the regular season.

While I don't doubt that Raymond (45th in league scoring, while sporting a 19 % shooting percentage) will surpass O'Reilly's high point watermark, it remains to be seen if he will surpass his overall impact.

When is the last time a winger won the Selke? I would say you are really hedging your bet. I am also not saying that Raymond is Selke worthy either though.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I would argue Yzerman inherited the worst team in modern history from front to back, top to bottom, loaded with debilitating contracts and trash. It took 3 years just to clean that up.

Then Yzerman follows that up with drafting Seider and Raymond who arguably could be the best players of their respective draft despite not having a #1 pick. That extraordinary and amazing GMing'. I think that is part of the reason why this thread is full of haters.

I don’t see Seider or Raymond arguably being #1 in their draft currently or likely to get there.

 

[Czechboy]

Eh, Seider's been mastering the most difficult minutes in the league. Would they trade him 1:1 for Makar? Probably. But other than that he's as elite as they're ever going to need.

I'm a seider fan but there is a big difference between receiving very hard minutes and mastering them.

 

[GrandmaCookie]

When is the last time a winger won the Selke? I would say you are really hedging your bet. I am also not saying that Raymond is Selke worthy either though.

Rob Braind’Amour 2006 and 2007

 

[Kegs]

Has anyone else done it?

Are u trying to say all the good players were drafted in the top ten? Do I really need to formulate a list. The guy leading the league in scoring right now was drafted where?

Review all the late round players drafted by every team from 2019-2024 and tell me who is worth talking about.

My guy poitras

Wyatt Johnson?

Moser?

There is lots if you comb through it.

 

[Dotter]

My guy poitras

Wyatt Johnson?

Moser?

There is lots if you comb through it.

Great, then we can have a conversation since the bar is set so low. Buchelnikov, Lombardi, Kiiskinen, Finnie.

 

[Dotter]

I don’t see Seider or Raymond arguably being #1 in their draft currently or likely to get there.

Big physical Seider has like a 150 less points than tiny Hughes, while being utilized as a shut defenseman and played 75 less games...

Raymond has 30 more points than Lafrenière while playing 50 less games.

I'd say both sides can make a good argument who will have the better NHL careers.

 

[GrandmaCookie]

Big physical Seider has like a 150 less points than tiny Hughes, while being utilized as a shut defenseman and played 75 less games...

Raymond has 30 more points than Lafrenière while playing 50 less games.

I'd say both sides can make a good argument who will have the better NHL careers.

Ever heard of Tim Stutzle?

 

[EXTRAS]

Rebuilds take time. Let him cook.

Got edvinsson/kasper/danielson/nygaard developing right now. And seider and Raymond still young. Couple years and they will be good.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Big physical Seider has like a 150 less points than tiny Hughes, while being utilized as a shut defenseman and played 75 less games...

Raymond has 30 more points than Lafrenière while playing 50 less games.

I'd say both sides can make a good argument who will have the better NHL careers.

Stutzle and Sanderson are ranked 1,2 in 2020. Can make an argument for either as #1.

 

[JohanFranzenstein]

I for one am looking forward to this thread being bumped every time the Wings lose. See you guys at 8:30 tonight.

 

[SirKillalot]

I enjoyed your post but this part had me confused (which isn't hard to do)

Are you saying that you think 14 of the players drafted from 2019 to 2024 will make the NHL?

Yeah I guess. That is what I'm hoping for and which is not unrealistic, but lets say a little bit of a stretch within reason.

To me it looks like the management is hoping and working for that on average 2 guys makes the team from each draft.
Meaning:
2019: Moritz Seider and from what it looks like now Albert Johansson.
Would be below if Johansson don't stick long term as a bottom four defenseman
But basically could end up with two of the 7 defenseman on the team coming from 2019-draft.
2020: Lucas Raymond
Here they are currently below unless William Wallinder makes the team in the future.
One top six forward and potential bottom four defenseman from the 2020-draft.

2021: Simon Edvinsson and from what it looks like four other possible realistic options.
It will be below two per year if none make it outside of Edvinsson, but it could also be that three guys make it from this draft class. There are more options from 2021-class that have a shot than the other years as how it stands right now, meaning Edvinsson and two of Sebastian Cossa (G), Carter Mazur (W), Red Savage (F), Shai Buium (D)
Currently I think Cossa and Mazur will make it. Wouldn't be shocked if Buium makes it, but need to elevate his game enough to do so and not just on par with what is already there. The challenge is d-men need time and opportunity and question will either of those be on Buium's side with Detroit.
So, realistic outcome is total is top four defenseman, starting goalie and bottom six winger with upside. With potential of bottom four defenseman.

2022: Marco Kasper
Currently below average, but early on in the process. By all accounts if they wanted to, Marco Kasper would be on the team from the start of the season this year in a limited role, they think he is better of playing top line minutes in AHL. I'm confident he will be on the team in the future, might happen later in the season already, but more likely regular from next season. Dmitri Buchelnikov looks to be the other candidate that has the best chance if he could adapt to North America. The other being Dylan James if he can add weight and keep progressing. He is that typical player Yzerman drafted in Tampa as well, but need to make progress to get there.
Realistic outcome, Marco Kasper as a middle six Center, with optional one or two middle six wingers added to the mix.

2023: Nate Danielson, Axel Sandin-Pellikka
From the looks of it it seems that Nate Danielson is more than not lined up up to get into a 2C position in the future. He is seen as a reliable center type, not to say he will be a perennial Selke-candidate like Patrice Bergeron, but he trends to be somewhat of that type of center. He could even make it up as a 1C like Bergeron, I wouldn't be surprised if that happens, but realistically if he ends up as 2C doing heavy loads its a great pick. If 1C he is a fantastic pick.
Sandin-Pellikka if being able to adjust to NA-game also trends into that offensive defenseman type which can quarter back a power play. There is also some potential in no offense, but all defense Brady Cleveland.
From this draft, its realistic to get a top six center in Danielson and a QB offensive defenseman in ASP. With the potential of adding a starting goalie in Trey Augustine. Meaning it could be 3. Realistic is maybe 2. Could be as many as 4 if Cleveland lands a clean-up role as bottom pair d-man.

2024: Michael Brandsegg-Nygaard
Currently for most its too early to tell the projection of in this draft class. What is known is MBN got NHL ready body and a lot to his game that makes in a middle six winger. Can he get polished into a top six winger waits to be seen.
There is other guys like Plante and Becher with potential, difficult to say how realistic their chances are for me.
From this draft, middle six winger in MBN, so only 1 for now.

Meaning:
Could end up with two of the 7 defenseman on the team coming from 2019-draft.
One top six forward and potential bottom four defenseman from the 2020-draft.
Realistic outcome is total is top four defenseman, starting goalie and bottom six winger with upside. With potential of bottom four defenseman. from 2021-draft.
Marco Kasper as a middle six Center, with optional one or two middle six wingers added to the mix from 2022-draft.
Realistic to get a top six center in Danielson and a QB offensive defenseman in ASP. With the potential of adding a starting goalie in Trey Augustine. Meaning it could be 3. Realistic is maybe 2. Could be as many as 4 if Cleveland lands a clean-up role as bottom pair d-man. From 2023-draft
From this draft, middle six winger in MBN, so only 1 for now from 2024-draft.


? - ? - L. Raymond
(D. Buchelnikov) - N. Danielson - M. Brandsegg Nygaard
(C. Mazur / D. James) - M. Kasper - ?
? - (R. Savage) - ?

M. Seider -
S. Edvinsson - A. Sandin-Pellikka
A. Johansson - (S. Buium)
(B. Cleveland) - (W. Wallinder)
With anyone besides Cleveland potentially could be Seider's partner in a defensive capacity

(S. Cossa)
(T. Augustine)


So to the question, I think 8 guys for sure will stick with the team. I hope one of the goalies will, making it 9. If both manage will be 10. If one of Buchelnikov/Mazur/James makes it, then 11. If any of Buium, Cleveland or Wallinder makes it it will be 12 which I think is Detroit's aim and not unrealistic to think a 1st round + one other guy making it from each draft.
Then I hope two more guys can make it to make it 14.

 

[Dotter]

Ever heard of Tim Stutzle?

Yup. Had an outlier 90 point season almost 2 yrs ago and has played 40 more NHL career games. Raymond is better defensively. Their numbers overall (aside from the outlier season) have been pretty equal. Even this season they are pacing the same, except Raymond has a better +/-.

Sure, you could make that argument.

 

[SirloinUB]

Last year was the first time he tried to compete for playoffs and he lost out by a tiebreaker.

He has built one of the best prospect pools in the league on top of a core of Raymond, Seider, Larkin, Edvinsson and Debrincat.

He hasn’t been perfect and the future is still more important than the present but his team is trending in a good direction despite the fact he had zero lottery luck.


It’s crazy to think deep criticisms are appropriate.