When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[StreetHawk]

When the time comes after SFY has accumulated numerous assets, has a fully developed pipeline of prospects and the right guy hits the market, Yzerman will be in a postition to strike, but that is still likely years away.

The high end rarely hits the market. Yzerman appears to be going back to the old DRW model of marinating their prospects longer in the A, basically eating up almost all or all of their ELC contract down in the A before they become full time NHLers. He has to be prepared to do what LA has done and move prospects and picks when the time comes to make a move to get a guy before he hits the open market. Teams like Minny/Win were not going to allow their guys to hit UFA for nothing.

He had 3 second rounders in 2019 and 2020 who would be 21 and 22 this year in 2023. Doesn't appear that he plans on having any of them make the Detroit roster. Which is fine. But they do need to track well in their development to be worth something in trade in a year or two should that be the timeline of when Yzerman makes his move.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I think there's some denial there. Signing guys like Gostisbehere, Compher etc. doesn't win you a Cup or even a division, but it might make your team competent enough to not be in the basement group. If you know you need to build through the draft then aiming for middling competence like that worsens your picks, doesn't win you anything that would drive interest, doesn't help the long-term future of the team.

There's only two rational explanations for it:

- The team thinks all the main building blocks are already in the organization (seems unlikely but not impossible).
- There's pressure from the business side to look 'alive' in order to drive season ticket sales, media interest etc. and the hockey ops guys rationalize it as saying they're good enough at scouting and development to build even with mid-round picks (based on what evidence?).

So which is it?

Are the Wings supposed to be leading the longest tank in history until they finally hit a 1OA, or should they be in pLaYoFf CoNtEnTioN?

 

[WaW]

His drafting has been horrendous

Are you sure about this? Every player I'm about to list below is at worst a "B-" prospect and have a realistic shot (never a guarantee with "B" prospects but they always have a solid shot) of making it to the NHL. Only had one 1st round pick per year other than 2021 where we had 2.

2019:
Seider, Al. Johansson, Soderblom

2020:
Raymond, Wallinder, Hanas

2021:
Edvinsson, Cossa, Mazur

2022:
Kasper, Buchelnikov, Lombardi

Plus we have a few players who as "C+ to C-" prospects with some potential upside, have an outside shot of making noise too:

(Viro, Bradley, Buium, An. Johansson, James)

Not here to get into a "MY DAD IS COOLER THAN YOUR DAD" style argument about who has the best prospect pool, but this is a perfectly fine crop of "maybes", which is really all anyone can ask for from any 5 year stretch of drafting. You typically want your first rounder to be a really quality NHL player or prospect (check in all 4 cases above), plus one other guy you can put a reasonable amount of faith in to become a roster player or at least a usable asset in the NHL trade from your 7 total picks (check). When you pick up additional picks and average around 10-11 picks like we've had, you do that to increase the odds to make it 1 + 2 instead of 1 + 1 (check).

Not including 2023 players yet as none of them have set foot on the ice since the draft.

 

[abo9]

I'm surprised that after 4 years of spinning wheels with draft capital, they're not making more moves like Montreal is doing - ie. picking cheap, young, talented young players who are having troubles establishing themselves in the league and offering them a change of scenery.

Not sure if it would work, but at the pace the rebuild is going, Seider will be 26-27 by the time those picks they got for Hronek/Bertuzzi got will be impactful. Maybe they'll just be rookies as well, who knows.

By that time, Larkin is gonna turn 30, with no C in sight to play 2C behind him - or even replace him. The rest of the team is incredibly underwhelming. For the future roster to look any good, talent will need to come from the inside.

I heavily question their scouting department. Seider was a good pick, Raymond looks solid, but the rest seems scarily up in the air. They even traded UP for Cossa and Buium... Dallas got Wyatt Johnston while trading down from that pick Detroit used on Cossa.

 

[WaW]

I'm surprised that after 4 years of spinning wheels with draft capital, they're not making more moves like Montreal is doing - ie. picking cheap, young, talented young players who are having troubles establishing themselves in the league and offering them a change of scenery.

Not sure if it would work, but at the pace the rebuild is going, Seider will be 26-27 by the time those picks they got for Hronek/Bertuzzi got will be impactful. Maybe they'll just be rookies as well, who knows.

By that time, Larkin is gonna turn 30, with no C in sight to play 2C behind him - or even replace him. The rest of the team is incredibly underwhelming. For the future roster to look any good, talent will need to come from the inside.

I heavily question their scouting department. Seider was a good pick, Raymond looks solid, but the rest seems scarily up in the air. They even traded UP for Cossa and Buium... Dallas got Wyatt Johnston while trading down from that pick Detroit used on Cossa.

How do you figure that neither Kasper nor Danielson will become a 2C. I'm kinda perplexed as to how you've managed to write off either one.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

The amateur scouting has been fine, maybe when very good. But their pro scouting and signing of free agents has been pretty hit or miss.

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

@abo9

Husso, Ned, Fabbri, Kubalik, Perlini, Kostin, Walmman, Vrana, just don't count, eh?
Some are hit, others are misses but we have spent assets to bring in young talent.

So you think Seider hitting his prime when todays draft picks are coming up is a problem?
We have a stacked prospect pool and other guys are on their way in the near future. (Edvinsson, Kasper, Johansson, Soderblom, Wallinder, Mazur)

We currently have 2 really solid C prospects coming along to help Larkin, plus trades are a thing and despite the current meta of dumping on Yzerman he has shown to be shrewd in that arena.

If you think Seider and Raymond are our only good picks, well, oh boy! You are going be surprised in a year or two,

 

[abo9]

How do you figure that neither Kasper nor Danielson will become a 2C. I'm kinda perplexed as to how you've managed to write off either one.

My bad, a lot(all?) of the picks under Yzerman are still too young to write off

The timing just doesnt look great. 4 years for Kasper/Danielson to become 2C and better is bringing Yzerman's tenure to 8 years (he was there since 2019 right? 5 drafts, 4 seasons to date?)

Idk, the "Yzerplan" just looks like a traditional long term rebuild to me. If theres anything special in the way he manages the team, its that he avoids the big shiny toy of the moment, doesnt disrupt the rebuild for costly immediate help.

 

[TKB]

The high end rarely hits the market. Yzerman appears to be going back to the old DRW model of marinating their prospects longer in the A, basically eating up almost all or all of their ELC contract down in the A before they become full time NHLers. He has to be prepared to do what LA has done and move prospects and picks when the time comes to make a move to get a guy before he hits the open market. Teams like Minny/Win were not going to allow their guys to hit UFA for nothing.

He had 3 second rounders in 2019 and 2020 who would be 21 and 22 this year in 2023. Doesn't appear that he plans on having any of them make the Detroit roster. Which is fine. But they do need to track well in their development to be worth something in trade in a year or two should that be the timeline of when Yzerman makes his move.

A agree the high end is rarely available, which is why he is patientIy acquiring assets, if and when the time comes. He is in the process of building a juggernaut D-core, assets which are always coveted.

I don't expect the Wings to have a contention window for at least 5 years, so I don't expect him to make a blockbuster move in the next year or two.

 

[abo9]

@abo9

Husso, Ned, Fabbri, Kubalik, Perlini, Kostin, Walmman, Vrana, just don't count, eh?
Some are hit, others are misses but we have spent assets to bring in young talent.

So you think Seider hitting his prime when todays draft picks are coming up is a problem?
We have a stacked prospect pool and other guys are on their way in the near future. (Edvinsson, Kasper, Johansson, Soderblom, Wallinder, Mazur)

We currently have 2 really solid C prospects coming along to help Larkin, plus trades are a thing and despite the current meta of dumping on Yzerman he has shown to be shrewd in that arena.

If you think Seider and Raymond are our only good picks, well, oh boy! You are going be surprised in a year or two,

What do you mean by that list of players not counting? They didnt get any value out of them (Kubalik they might!!!). Kostin still early to tell.

Im looking forward to see the prospects coming up, you definitely would have a better grasp on them than me.

Overall, I just dont think the Red Wing's rebuild is anything special, the "Yzerplan" being just a plain old rebuild through the draft like so mamy other teams are doing.

That said, I dont get people trashing the FA signings... Detroit still needs to ice a team and those AAVs and terms arent gonna hamper the Red Wings in any way

 

[DavidpauseReinbacher]

I'm surprised that after 4 years of spinning wheels with draft capital, they're not making more moves like Montreal is doing - ie. picking cheap, young, talented young players who are having troubles establishing themselves in the league and offering them a change of scenery.

Not sure if it would work, but at the pace the rebuild is going, Seider will be 26-27 by the time those picks they got for Hronek/Bertuzzi got will be impactful. Maybe they'll just be rookies as well, who knows.

By that time, Larkin is gonna turn 30, with no C in sight to play 2C behind him - or even replace him. The rest of the team is incredibly underwhelming. For the future roster to look any good, talent will need to come from the inside.

I heavily question their scouting department. Seider was a good pick, Raymond looks solid, but the rest seems scarily up in the air. They even traded UP for Cossa and Buium... Dallas got Wyatt Johnston while trading down from that pick Detroit used on Cossa.

Montreal is epitome of shit.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

The key difference with Yzerplan in Detroit v. Tampa is the first rounders the 2 years before he took over:

Tampa:
2009 - Hedman (1.2): Norris winner
2008 - Stamkos (1.1): 2x Richard Winner

Detroit:
2018 - Zadina (1.6) - Bust
2017 - Rasmussen (1.9) - 4th liner

Add to this the fact that he got lucky with late rounders in Tampa and doesn't seem to be in Detroit thus far and there's this thread. Yzerman is a very good GM imo but not a magician. Seems like this thread is mostly about correcting the record or belief that he's a magician and any Detroit fans believing that should wake up by now.

 

[Theodore450]

After reviewing the moves and the cap they have. He’s fine, it was always gonna be a kong rebuild

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Detroit is NYR 2.0. Had to rebuild after a long run of success, can't hit on a forward pick to save their lives

 

[abo9]

After reviewing the moves and the cap they have. He’s fine, it was always gonna be a kong rebuild

Yeah I wouldnt replace him if I were Detroit's owner.

But I have a suspicion that, if his draft picks pan out, the next GM will get the credit for the team's turnaround (in a few years)

 

[StreetHawk]

The key difference with Yzerplan in Detroit v. Tampa is the first rounders the 2 years before he took over:

Tampa:
2009 - Hedman (1.2): Norris winner
2008 - Stamkos (1.1): 2x Richard Winner

Detroit:
2018 - Zadina (1.6) - Bust
2017 - Rasmussen (1.9) - 4th liner

Add to this the fact that he got lucky with late rounders in Tampa and doesn't seem to be in Detroit thus far and there's this thread. Yzerman is a very good GM imo but not a magician. Seems like this thread is mostly about correcting the record or belief that he's a magician and any Detroit fans believing that should wake up by now.

GM is only as good as the scouting department that he assembles. What changes has he made since he arrived given what the wings were doing in the years prior to his arrival.

 

[Our Lady Peace]

Detroit is NYR 2.0. Had to rebuild after a long run of success, can't hit on a forward pick to save their lives

I mean if you're counting the Ken Holland years pre-2019 then sure... But that's irrelevant now and half a decade in the past. Both franchises have had dissimilar situations anyway.

Forwards since Yzerman;
- Raymond is tracking to be a 1st line RW.
- Kasper had an excellent season as an 18 year old in the SHL and already came to play his first NHL game.
- Soderblom is a 6th round pick who played in the NHL this year.
- Mazur showing really well and stepped into the AHL with 6 points in 6 games.

 

[norrisnick]

My bad, a lot(all?) of the picks under Yzerman are still too young to write off

The timing just doesnt look great. 4 years for Kasper/Danielson to become 2C and better is bringing Yzerman's tenure to 8 years (he was there since 2019 right? 5 drafts, 4 seasons to date?)

Idk, the "Yzerplan" just looks like a traditional long term rebuild to me. If theres anything special in the way he manages the team, its that he avoids the big shiny toy of the moment, doesnt disrupt the rebuild for costly immediate help.

If anyone ever described it as anything other than that, they weren't paying attention to what he has said since day one.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Yzerplan gonna pass the Shanaplan eventually, I think.

 

[Chainshot]

Yzerman talked about that in a presser last season. They tried three years to be bad. They got Raymond, Edvinsson, and Kasper out of it. They made the conscious decision that they can't keep being bad and needed to turn the ship around and start improving.

And if they get a lucky lottery ball while not being abysmal, great. In the meantime, I can see them building out more like a defensive version of the Kraken - multiple lines of solid checking guys who are going to grind on teams. Maybe a bit like the Islanders without leaning on the goalie as much but a lineup of lunch bucket guys who grind it out night after night and are just miserable to play against.

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

What do you mean by that list of players not counting? They didnt get any value out of them (Kubalik they might!!!). Kostin still early to tell.

You had mentioned trading/acquiring talent like MTL is doing. So I listed the moves made in that vein. Correct me if I'm wrong but I assumed you meant the acquiring of young talent i.e like MTL did with Dach. I don't follow MTL enough to know all the moves made so if you were referring to something else then that's my bad.

I'm also disagree we have not received value out of those acquisitions, Husso has been solid for us, Fabbri (when not injured) is a good player and Walman is a solid partner next to Mo on the top pair.

 

[LemonSauceD]

I honestly think they had a terrible 2023 draft. I mean Danielson was one helluva reach at 9, especially when Moore (to be fair a bunch of teams passed him), Benson, and Dvorsky were all available and would have given Detroit a legitimate offensive maestro upfront. Instead they chose a safer but lower ceiling guy who may or may not top out as a 2C at best in the NHL.

And then they use the pick they got from Hronek on an even smaller, defensively challenged defender in Sandin-Pelikka. I mean the chances of Pelikka becoming the level Hronek is right now is statistically slim, and are now banking on Pelikka to become a huge high reward prospect.

And then they draft two big righties that were projected 3rd and 5th rounders with 2 of their 2nd round picks, not to mention reaching with majority of their later picks as well.

The UFA signings have been atrocious but they should get value out of the 1 year contracts they signed at the deadline.

Overall, it’s not looking like a good summer of 2023 for them. They could have been closer to exiting the rebuild but to be honest, they are barely ahead from where they were a year ago.

 

[abo9]

You had mentioned trading/acquiring talent like MTL is doing. So I listed the moves made in that vein. Correct me if I'm wrong but I assumed you meant the acquiring of young talent i.e like MTL did with Dach. I don't follow MTL enough to know all the moves made so if you were referring to something else then that's my bad.

I'm also disagree we have not received value out of those acquisitions, Husso has been solid for us, Fabbri (when not injured) is a good player and Walman is a solid partner next to Mo on the top pair.

Yes that's what I meant, but more in terms of the Bertuzzi/Hronek trades (apologies if that was confusing).

It's 4 seasons into the Red Wings rebuild already. Trading Hronek and Bertuzzi for picks this year and next just seems to spread the rebuild even longer. Although, I have a feeling that that Bruins pick might end up being a genius move if Boston doesn't get Bergeron/Krejci back.

And no offense, but Fabbri, Husso and Walman aren't getting through the rebuild, and I doubt that Detroit can flip them for value. (I get it though in the case of Fabbri, and even Vrana, injuries sucks).

 

[Volica]

Rebuilds are not linear.

For example, a team like Jersey is applauded pretty regularly on social media for doing a rebuild 'the right way'... meanwhile that team missed the playoffs for a decade (minus a quick howdy doo with MVP Hall) and the roster that is built around Hughes and the gang are a bunch of guys the team drafted from like 2013 through like 2018 in later rounds.

Yzerman has been at the helm for 4 years now in Detroit, they've shown progression year over year but have yet to make that massive jump. But his tenure as a GM will really be put in perspective likely around 2025-2027, when all those guys he's been taking with that draft capital start coming through. They've made so many picks in 4 years; like so, so many. Lots of high end guys coming too from the early 1st round.

People forget how difficult this league is to build a contender.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Yes that's what I meant, but more in terms of the Bertuzzi/Hronek trades (apologies if that was confusing).

It's 4 seasons into the Red Wings rebuild already. Trading Hronek and Bertuzzi for picks this year and next just seems to spread the rebuild even longer. Although, I have a feeling that that Bruins pick might end up being a genius move if Boston doesn't get Bergeron/Krejci back.

And no offense, but Fabbri, Husso and Walman aren't getting through the rebuild, and I doubt that Detroit can flip them for value. (I get it though in the case of Fabbri, and even Vrana, injuries sucks).

Hronek and Bertuzzi werent core players for the wings and just looking at the contract Bertuzzi got, no one seem to view him as such. Flipping them for good picks/prospectd which can be further flipped for players later in a trade seems to be good asset management to me.

Wait one more year and you might be flipping hronek for a late first round pick/early 2nd. It's honestly not much different than Montreal trading Romanov away for a mid first. Detroit just haven't found their version of Dache yet but they do have the asset to. It's not like their 2023 prospect suddenly lost value.