When did you know it was over for this group?

[colchar]

Losing to the Habs. That Game 7 was the low point and completely changed how I interact with this team as a fan.

Same here.

 

[River Meadow]

Bottom line, the problem is Dubas, and by proxy, Shanny as well.

Dubas flat out REFUSES to address key issues after key losses which highlight tons of red flags.

Sees how important goaltending (Jackets, Habs, Lightning series losses) yet instead of wheeling and dealing (or just keeping Jack who was decent) he cheaps out and takes the lazy++ way out on goaltending for this year, which as others have mentioned, involves a Hail Mary prayer to baby Jesus that it will work. In theory it's insane.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Way too many disappointing moments from this group, but 3 stand out the most for me:

How do you pull off one of the greatest comebacks ever (game 4 vs CBJ) only to lay a massive egg the following game?

After losing game 5 to the Habs, you'd think they'd come out hard for game 6. Nope, thoroughly outplayed through two periods. In fact, they barely got anything going until after it was 2-0.

And then game 7, which was one of the worst offensive performances I've ever seen. They generated next to nothing the whole game. I expected an L given the previous years, but not like that.

 

[francis246]

Bottom line, the problem is Dubas, and by proxy, Shanny as well.

Dubas flat out REFUSES to address key issues after key losses which highlight tons of red flags.

Sees how important goaltending (Jackets, Habs, Lightning series losses) yet instead of wheeling and dealing (or just keeping Jack who was decent) he cheaps out and takes the lazy++ way out on goaltending for this year, which as others have mentioned, involves a Hail Mary prayer to baby Jesus that it will work. In theory it's insane.

I agree goaltending is a big issue, but Jack was not the solution. You can’t give Jack Campbell a 5 year deal. They are already talking about Stuart Skinner being better than Jack Campbell in EDM. And they just signed Campbell, he’s not going to last there.

We should have done everything we could to get Husso. No matter the cost. I don’t know why we targeted Murray.

 

[francis246]

It was the contract signings. Everyone out for as much blood as possible with no care in the world about being a team player and building a winner, no one signing for term, etc.

For me it was the moment the Leafs cheaped out on the rookie bonuses. And Shanny went public begging them to take less money. I knew that was going to cause problems for the organization.

1. They should have gave Marner, Matthews, Nylander their bonuses off their ELC’s. Lou f***ed up on that. When he decided not to, I think it changed the mindset of the young guys into “we are going to make sure we get every penny we can now.” If they had just given them the bonuses I truly believe their second contract negotiation would have been a bit smoother and in better faith. We may have saved a couple million each on the second contract because we gave them the bonuses. But because all 3 felt they got screwed and lost money on the ELC’s they were out for blood 100%. Having Dubas as a rookie GM made it easier to take advantage.

2. Idk why Shanny went on public record to call them out to take less money before negotiations started. That was a desperate move, talk to them in house and explain the importance of an internal cap and that the organization is going to be firm on it, Don’t go to the media to do so.

 

[Stamkos4life]

I started having my doubts early when dubas took over the gm position. Many were talking about how amazing of a team dubas assembled for the 18-19 season but I couldn't help but notice how bad it was. Yet i was name called and told i wasnt a real leaf fan because i didnt support dubas.

Then he overpaid the rfas, traded Kadri for barrie and kerfoot, kept sparks over mcbackup, traded a 1st for an already injured foligno, ect, ect.

It all started going wrong when dubas was named gm.

 

[namttebih]

Marner coming out with the A over guys like Muzzin, which was obviously negotiated. I said it at the time, it had the feel of someone coming up with a nick name for themselves and forcing everyone to call him it. I wonder where he would rank in a player’s vote for leadership.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Take your pick:

Zamboni goalie Ayres
Columbus series
Habs series
Losing to Sabres 3 times last year
Losing to Yotes almost every game
No hitting, no retaliation, no physical engagement of any kind

 

[JAS 39 Gripen]

I come in peace, and I'm not a Leaf fan at all, but the contracts that Tavares and Marner got pretty much meant that the Leafs never really could put out an actual, deep, team on the ice. Also, the fact that goaltending's been an issue for so long is weird.

I know ya'll have a history of shi**ing on Nylander, and in some cases it's made a lot of sense, but that Marner guy....he deserves the s*it he's getting now. He should be traded, but I don't see that happening.

 

[hoglund]

I guess that I'm naive because I didn't and don't think that it's over for this group.

 

[leafs in five]

Unfortunately it's not just Keefe. It's Corporate PC Hockey sanitized for our woke world. Comes right from the Boardroom.

don't forget about soy

 

[leafs in five]

This is Gary's hockey as well. SN loves it. Nice, kind and gentle for everyone.

Every game used to be an event. Now it's hard to sir through a game - even when they're performing.

when was every Leafs game an event? late 90s?

 

[hotpaws]

For me it was the moment the Leafs cheaped out on the rookie bonuses. And Shanny went public begging them to take less money. I knew that was going to cause problems for the organization.

1. They should have gave Marner, Matthews, Nylander their bonuses off their ELC’s. Lou f***ed up on that. When he decided not to, I think it changed the mindset of the young guys into “we are going to make sure we get every penny we can now.” If they had just given them the bonuses I truly believe their second contract negotiation would have been a bit smoother and in better faith. We may have saved a couple million each on the second contract because we gave them the bonuses. But because all 3 felt they got screwed and lost money on the ELC’s they were out for blood 100%. Having Dubas as a rookie GM made it easier to take advantage.

2. Idk why Shanny went on public record to call them out to take less money before negotiations started. That was a desperate move, talk to them in house and explain the importance of an internal cap and that the organization is going to be firm on it, Don’t go to the media to do so.

Mathews got all the bonuses available and Willie and Mitch got some of theirs . Also you have to earn your bonuses and i believe between Willie and Mitch only the latter earned the one's he didn't sign for on the last year of his elc

all 3 of Shanny/Dubas and Babs were trying to put pressure on Willie and the rest of the kids to sign for discounts through their ''we vs me'' media campaign , when it backfired with Willie they went a full 180 and just dropped their pants to sign M and M quickly

 

[allfornothing]

When they got shut out multiple times to Columbus.

 

[Holymakinaw]

When they traded Wendel Clark for Mats Sundin.

 

[ShaneFalco]

"They care deeply"

 

[TheBeastCoast]

In hindsight, trading Kadri and signing Tavares was objectively the wrong decision for this team....and I like Tavares. We would just be a better, deeper team with Kadri replacing Tavares as the 2C. Kadri also pulls his team into the fight even if he crosses the line sometimes...

 

[Dekes For Days]

You were the guy that told everyone at the time that Babcock was the problem, and once he was gone and Keefe was installed as coach, the team would take off to new heights and be amazing. And why pray tell was that going to happen according to you? Well you claimed Babcock’s personality was a problem, but more importantly, you claimed his systems were the biggest problem.

Whatever conversation you're thinking of wasn't with me, but regardless of how you feel about Keefe, Babcock was absolutely a problem and we have been significantly better under Keefe, so I'm not sure why you're bragging about being wrong.

Your other scapegoat and whipping boy Lamoriello, has certainly done it though and won GM of the year twice back to back since leaving.

Yeah, the Jim Gregory award is quite a joke. I'm not sure what Lou taking credit for other people's successes in New York has to do with anything though.

The problem here is that Dubas has a flawed team building and game approach strategy. His fatal mistake is that he’s built a team that is only capable of playing one style of play—offence.

You seem to have no idea what Dubas' "team building" and "game approach strategy" even is. We were one of the best defensive teams in the league last year, FYI.

It is laughable that a Zamboni driver beat this team, but the cause was that exact same issue. Their opponent committed to an iron clad playoff style defensive scheme and stifled the Leaf offence.

A Zamboni driver did not beat this team. A practice goalie hung on for dear life as the team in front of him put up their best period of their season in a game they were already handily winning. And hilariously, it wasn't with an "iron clad playoff style defensive scheme". It was actually with a relentless offensive attack that kept us in our own zone, preventing us from getting shots.

What you seemingly seem to think, is that Kyle Dubas is such a genius that he can piece together such an overwhelmingly skilled offence (think 80’s Oilers) that the Leafs can overwhelm any opponent during the playoffs.

No, that's not what I think at all, because that's not what Dubas is trying to or has built.

 

[francis246]

Mathews got all the bonuses available and Willie and Mitch got some of theirs . Also you have to earn your bonuses and i believe between Willie and Mitch only the latter earned the one's he didn't sign for on the last year of his elc

all 3 of Shanny/Dubas and Babs were trying to put pressure on Willie and the rest of the kids to sign for discounts through their ''we vs me'' media campaign , when it backfired with Willie they went a full 180 and just dropped their pants to sign M and M quickly

I think there’s two, there’s performance bonuses and then the other bonus’ that the team can just give. Is it schedule B?

But I do recall that all 3 did not get the second one. Lou I don’t think has ever given that out in the Salary Cap era

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Signing Tavares was the right move because they got him for no assets and the worst case scenario was they could move another player for an equivalent player that fills a role they need *plus* assets. It was a no-brainer. Problem is, that hasn't happened. BTW, Tavares is the best guy on the team recently.

Worse case scenario for this team at the time was signing another teams asset when you have the right pieces here to build around. Lets see.. We had a young Kadri(won cup with Colorado), young Bozack(won a cup with St. Louis), young Kapanen(a physical presence that can do it all) and a few other key pieces. We had the 3 young stars Nylander, Marner, Matthews. Then you dump 11 mill on another teams asset. What has happened since then? STUCK in high throttle, unable to shift out of 3rd gear. First and foremost, Hockey fan here. I watch and know all the stars. The day we signed JT was like a kick in the gut. I remembered a game we played against the Islanders. Jan 31/2018. We skated around that team like they were pylons. A 5-0 Leaf win. In 2019 we scored a ton of goals. JT had a lot of them. It didn't really matter because we would have scored a bunch with or without him. The Islanders were not a playoff team with JT. They lost him in FA, all of a sudden they are a playoff team.......Addition By subtraction. You see it doesn't matter how many goals we score. Because our opponents know they will get it back when JT is on the ice.

 

[4thline]

I think there’s two, there’s performance bonuses and then the other bonus’ that the team can just give. Is it schedule B?

But I do recall that all 3 did not get the second one. Lou I don’t think has ever given that out in the Salary Cap era

Entry Level Performance Bonuses | Puckpedia

Entry Level Contracts are eligible for Performance Bonuses. There are two categories of Performance Bonuses: "A" Level Bonuses "A" Bonuses are worth $212,500 each, to a maximum of $850,000 (maximum 4 achieved). For players signed starting in 2022, "A" bonuses are worth $250,000 each, to a...

puckpedia.com

Matthews got everything
Marner and Nylander full A, no B.

 

[hotpaws]

I think there’s two, there’s performance bonuses and then the other bonus’ that the team can just give. Is it schedule B?

But I do recall that all 3 did not get the second one. Lou I don’t think has ever given that out in the Salary Cap era

go to cap friendly . it'll show Mathews had the potential to earn all the available bonuses

Mitch and Willie only had the potential to earn one set of bonuses and i read somewhere only Mitch would have earned any of the second set and only in his final elc season

 

[egd27]

Finally someone else who gets it.

Doesn't matter if it was the Leafs or any other team, they gave Ayres (the Zamboni driver and basically 'teammate' as he also works for the Leafs) the win. It was either be complete jerks and pummel the poor guy with 20 easy goals or give the guy and his family the win and a memory for the rest of their lives.

They didn't lose to a zamboni driver they gave the zamboni driver a win lol.

I said it the day after. They literally scored twice in a row. The coaches GM etc getting text messages. Rod losing it. Competitors.

There was no winning. Even dallas was tied 2-2 going into period 3 against Anaheim. They need to win. They got 2 shots on a one eyed ebug. It was a deflection of his own guy

So was dallas so much worse than anaheim?

More excuses.

They were down 4-3 going into the 3rd. All they had to do was shut down the Canes, score 1 in the 3rd, and win it in OT. Simple. Everybody wins.

But nope, they give up 2 to the Canes (one 53 seconds into the 3rd) and lose 6-3 in front of their home fans and an HNIC audience.

If you guys are correct and they "let" the Canes get a feel good win, and sacrifice 2 valuable points, that's even worse.

 

[MSZ]

I agree goaltending is a big issue, but Jack was not the solution. You can’t give Jack Campbell a 5 year deal. They are already talking about Stuart Skinner being better than Jack Campbell in EDM. And they just signed Campbell, he’s not going to last there.

We should have done everything we could to get Husso. No matter the cost. I don’t know why we targeted Murray.

Because Murray was Dubas' guy in Soo.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

"They care deeply"

about their personal brand, that is