When did you know it was over for this group?

usernamezrhardtodo

Registered User
Mar 26, 2014
2,472
3,007
Lmao is right.

You were the guy that told everyone at the time that Babcock was the problem, and once he was gone and Keefe was installed as coach, the team would take off to new heights and be amazing.

And why pray tell was that going to happen according to you?

Well you claimed Babcock’s personality was a problem, but more importantly, you claimed his systems were the biggest problem.

Well guess what?

Here we are in season 4 of Dubas with Keefe as coach and the team still can’t get out of the first round.

Your other scapegoat and whipping boy Lamoriello, has certainly done it though and won GM of the year twice back to back since leaving.

So Lmao is right.

What’s your excuse/explanation this year?

Lou’s supposedly bad signings? Covid? Flat Cap?

Or, are you going to shower us with more fancy stats and buzz phrases “like success isn’t linear” and tell us we’re on the verge of winning the Stanley Cup?

I‘ll tell you what the problem is here, it’s no big secret, as most of us who played the game already know what it is.

The problem here is that Dubas has a flawed team building and game approach strategy. His fatal mistake is that he’s built a team that is only capable of playing one style of play—offence. So as currently constructed, this team simply can’t adjust their style of play when it requires it, as they are too one dimensional both mentally and physically.

That’s why when the playoffs start, Leaf opponents know they simply have to clog up the neutral zone and trap the crap out of the Leafs and they have an excellent chance at winning the series.

Now during the regular season, most teams are not going to fully commit to that style of play on most nights, as it’s actually extremely physically demanding. But good teams do fully commit to it during the playoffs and during the regular season when it’s required. Full commitment requires throwing hits and blocking shots with whatever part of your body you have to.

The offensive antidote to that defensive scheme is really simple and old school, you dump the puck in and attack with speed. If you don’t get the puck back first , then you pound and punish the other teams defence and finish all your checks. If you keep doing it, especially in a 7 game series, your opponents defence will start backing up in anticipation of the dump, which is then when you can go back to attempting to carry the pack back into the o-zone. At that point you’ve got your opponent on their heels as they don’t know what’s coming.

Unfortunately, the Leafs, as currently constructed, do not have any players of substance that are capable of switching to that style of play when it requires it. Until that changes, the Leafs will never win anything more than perhaps a playoff round.

It is laughable that a Zamboni driver beat this team, but the cause was that exact same issue. Their opponent committed to an iron clad playoff style defensive scheme and stifled the Leaf offence. And just like they do during the playoffs, the Leaf stars got all sulky and frustrated and their opponent got the win.

What you seemingly seem to think, is that Kyle Dubas is such a genius that he can piece together such an overwhelmingly skilled offence (think 80’s Oilers) that the Leafs can overwhelm any opponent during the playoffs. In a non salary cap system, that might be possible given the Leafs superior financial resources. But, in a salary cap system, I don’t believe they will ever build a team strong enough to play a one dimensional, offence first, possession style game and win it all. A playoff round or two? Perhaps. But 4 rounds and a cup? No going to happen IMO.

That’s where I believe you and Dubas are completely flawed in your logic.

Many if not most “negative posters” (as we get labeled here) know this.

So the solution here is that either Dubas pivots his team building and construction approach, (seems unlikely at this point) or he and his puppet coach Sheldon Keefe both need to go.

That’s just my opinion. I’m not going to shower you with fancy stats and buzzwords to make my point.

But I do believe many other members here also know that what I point out is the heart of the issue with this current Leafs team.

I know in the end we all just want to bring the cup home, so with respect, all the best.

-CaptainCrunch17
Predictability is our weakness. We can't come up with adjustments...Keefe even keeps harping he doesn't care what the other team does...we just need to play our game. It's obvious to you and many posters and a mystery to a few.
 
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michi510

Registered User
Aug 31, 2011
144
123
Toronto
When they blew that 3-1 lead to the habs… that was the final letdown for me, and my emotional interest dropped considerably since. I have watched/followed every game since 2004, but being the vastly more talented and better team, and still playing like a.., that ripped my soul out. I couldn’t comprehend what happened, but realized if they didn’t have heart to win that series, this core would never achieve greatness.

Hopefully they sign Matthews, and retool around him and we get lucky one day like the Caps and Ovi.
 

axlrose87

Registered User
Jul 13, 2018
1,628
1,282
For me, it was the infamous "The Leafs lost to a 42-year old zamboni driver, who works for them" game against CAR in 2020. I personally see that game as not only the most humiliating loss in Leafs history, NHL history, hockey history, but all of sports history (if anyone has one that's worse, please share it for the sake of my morbid curiosity). It was not only the loss of that game, but the fact that Sheldon Keefe cancelled practice the following day, presumably so that the players wouldn't have to face scrutiny from the media. Lastly, Kyle Dubas claiming that the opposing team losing both of their starting goaltenders and so you get to shoot for half the game on a human shooter-tutor is a "no win" situation.

People like to meme and joke about this game and it's obvious why, however, if you look at it from a serious perspective, that 24 hour span truly shows how incompetent this organization is, top to bottom, from its soy-infused GM, to its cowardly coach, to its soft, gutless players. And sitting at the top of shit mountain is Shanahan, the carnival barker, who always somehow manages to escape criticism but should also be gone for allowing this obvious circus to continue unabated for his entire tenure. This organization is completely lacking in accountability and has been for years. We saw this ugliness rear its head again just recently when Keefe had to walk back his (perfectly valid and 100% correct) criticisms of his pampered prima donna stars. The inmates run the asylum in Toronto and this has been obvious to me for years. I'm glad other people are finally waking up to this fact.

You want change and success in Toronto? This entire organization needs to be gutted, top to bottom. Shanahan needs to go, Dubas needs to go, Keefe needs to go and this core needs to be blown into unrecognizable pieces. Then you start building from the ground up once more. Yes, it's horrendous luck (and just so Toronto) that when they finally draft and develop and hit on so many great picks that they all turn out to be spoiled immature children that worship at the shrine of failure when it comes to team success, but continuing to "run it back" for years and years with the same result is an even bigger L that is entirely self inflicted and completely unnecessary.

For me, it was the infamous "The Leafs lost to a 42-year old zamboni driver, who works for them" game against CAR in 2020. I personally see that game as not only the most humiliating loss in Leafs history, NHL history, hockey history, but all of sports history (if anyone has one that's worse, please share it for the sake of my morbid curiosity). It was not only the loss of that game, but the fact that Sheldon Keefe cancelled practice the following day, presumably so that the players wouldn't have to face scrutiny from the media. Lastly, Kyle Dubas claiming that the opposing team losing both of their starting goaltenders and so you get to shoot for half the game on a human shooter-tutor is a "no win" situation.

People like to meme and joke about this game and it's obvious why, however, if you look at it from a serious perspective, that 24 hour span truly shows how incompetent this organization is, top to bottom, from its soy-infused GM, to its cowardly coach, to its soft, gutless players. And sitting at the top of shit mountain is Shanahan, the carnival barker, who always somehow manages to escape criticism but should also be gone for allowing this obvious circus to continue unabated for his entire tenure. This organization is completely lacking in accountability and has been for years. We saw this ugliness rear its head again just recently when Keefe had to walk back his (perfectly valid and 100% correct) criticisms of his pampered prima donna stars. The inmates run the asylum in Toronto and this has been obvious to me for years. I'm glad other people are finally waking up to this fact.

You want change and success in Toronto? This entire organization needs to be gutted, top to bottom. Shanahan needs to go, Dubas needs to go, Keefe needs to go and this core needs to be blown into unrecognizable pieces. Then you start building from the ground up once more. Yes, it's horrendous luck (and just so Toronto) that when they finally draft and develop and hit on so many great picks that they all turn out to be spoiled immature children that worship at the shrine of failure when it comes to team success, but continuing to "run it back" for years and years with the same result is an even bigger L that is entirely self inflicted and completely unnecessary.
Well said.
I felt it was all over after the Columbus series. Yet, here we are. Everyone is still employed and no one has been held accountable.
when does Larry Tanenbaum step in?
keefe, shanny and Dubas should not be on the team flight home
 
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LastOne2100

Registered User
Jan 2, 2017
8,344
9,166
It was the contract signings. Everyone out for as much blood as possible with no care in the world about being a team player and building a winner, no one signing for term, etc.
 

mikeyz

Registered User
Dec 3, 2013
7,670
6,956
This one is easy. I have been saying this to anyone who would listen.

Tavares return to Long Island the 1st time and the way they played in that game.
 

wingman75

Registered User
Dec 3, 2008
6,483
7,026
The QC
For me it was game one of this season. They came out with no purpose, no desire, no passion. After losing the way they did, and playing who they were, that was the signal for me that this group doesn't have the desire to be great, or doesn't understand how to be... either is a problem.
 

nuttica

Registered User
Nov 30, 2012
53
49
When Shanahan hired Dubas then Dubas firing Babcock and hiring Keefe was the nail in the coffin.
 

Aashir Mallik

Registered User
Apr 19, 2019
12,464
13,210
I gave up after tampa, Montreal placed serious doubts, and Columbus just disgusted me

Looking back, it should be Boston 2019, that should’ve been the year they announced to the league that they are here, but they shat the bed
 

Leafshater67

Registered User
Nov 2, 2019
1,713
2,662
Halifax
It’s not over… it’s 9 games
Its not the fact that it’s 9 games in that makes us think it’s over, it’s the fact that they cannot win games when it matters. They just got eliminated in the first round again after another good season and many of us were expecting a rebound. We expected they would play good in the regular season at least like usual and instead, they’ve come back worse than ever.

It’s also how they look in those games. The whole team looks lazy and uninterested for the most part. It’s clear to most that this management group refuses to even attempt to fix the problem, instead rolling out the same flawed product every year. We’re frustrated at that. Something needs to change. That core has needed a major shakeup for half a decade
 

Polaris1010

Registered User
Mar 23, 2017
3,800
1,300
grandma's cellar
There are probably two issue here, or themes, in my opinion.

When they fired Babcock, I stopped watching. Then the pandemic hit, and I really never followed the team that closely anymore. There are more important things in life than the Leafs.

Why follow something going in the wrong direction.

Babcock was proven winner. Replaced by who? They traded Kadri for who?

The other issue, when did the rot set in?

There are some real good answers in this thread pertaining as to when the rot was becoming apparent with this team and organization.
 
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