When did you know it was over for this group?

[Ianturnedbull]

For me, it was the infamous "The Leafs lost to a 42-year old zamboni driver, who works for them" game against CAR in 2020. I personally see that game as not only the most humiliating loss in Leafs history, NHL history, hockey history, but all of sports history (if anyone has one that's worse, please share it for the sake of my morbid curiosity). It was not only the loss of that game, but the fact that Sheldon Keefe cancelled practice the following day, presumably so that the players wouldn't have to face scrutiny from the media. Lastly, Kyle Dubas claiming that the opposing team losing both of their starting goaltenders and so you get to shoot for half the game on a human shooter-tutor is a "no win" situation.

People like to meme and joke about this game and it's obvious why, however, if you look at it from a serious perspective, that 24 hour span truly shows how incompetent this organization is, top to bottom, from its soy-infused GM, to its cowardly coach, to its soft, gutless players. And sitting at the top of shit mountain is Shanahan, the carnival barker, who always somehow manages to escape criticism but should also be gone for allowing this obvious circus to continue unabated for his entire tenure. This organization is completely lacking in accountability and has been for years. We saw this ugliness rear its head again just recently when Keefe had to walk back his (perfectly valid and 100% correct) criticisms of his pampered prima donna stars. The inmates run the asylum in Toronto and this has been obvious to me for years. I'm glad other people are finally waking up to this fact.

You want change and success in Toronto? This entire organization needs to be gutted, top to bottom. Shanahan needs to go, Dubas needs to go, Keefe needs to go and this core needs to be blown into unrecognizable pieces. Then you start building from the ground up once more. Yes, it's horrendous luck (and just so Toronto) that when they finally draft and develop and hit on so many great picks that they all turn out to be spoiled immature children that worship at the shrine of failure when it comes to team success, but continuing to "run it back" for years and years with the same result is an even bigger L that is entirely self inflicted and completely unnecessary.

Answer:

The Play-in series against CBJ. Terrible effort and coaching.

 

[Al14]

Patrick Marleau signing was my first clue that all would not be right with our re-build! It was a contract for too much money, and for 1 year far too long. This move gave our future stars swollen heads and the greed for money. Signing Taveres sealed the deal!

I would have signed Nylander for no more than $5.5M or trade him. Matthews was worth $9-10M tops. And greedy Marner should have been signed for $8M max. All terms should have been for 8 years!

These guys all got too much money, far too soon, and without proving they were winners!!!

JMHO.

 

[HellasLEAF]

The CBJ and Habs losses in playoffs. It's two moments but the second one confirmed for me the team isn't good enough to win.

The fact about how the Leafs have allocated cap and how no team has won in this manor is ever true unfortunately.

 

[notdoneyet]

For me it was when greedy nylander held out for three months
Got paid for all the money he missed and flopped with a 27 point season.

Dubas showed his true colors right there by giving in to the only player who absolutely MISSED games by being greedy.

Knew right from that moment dubas was weak

 

[Legion34]

I'm not, as I just said. But I am enjoying being proven right after years of people telling me that Dubas knows what he's doing and that I'm "overreacting". I've spent more time on social media reading reactions this season than watching games.

Soooo you are?

Did that come before Kaskisuo's NHL debut where they completely hung him out to dry? That was probably the most shameful performance I've ever seen in pro sports.

See a competitive, high character team like Carolina band together and protect a zamboni driver while the Maple Leafs just mail it in when they face any sort of adversity.

"Winnipeg lost to an accountant" is that classic 'smartest kid on the short bus' argument.

Rangers didn't have 8-9 ELC's that would need significant raises. In the case of the top 3 fwds, anywhere from 600-1200% salary increase. They weren't going to be able to keep everyone but Tavares' $11M ensured they had to essentially purge the entire secondary core before they'd even won a round.

I joked at the time it was like a teenager with their first credit card.

This is pretty much u true. The leafs locked up their core expecting the cap to go up to 86 million. Then the first time in like ever the players didn’t bump the escalator. In fact they were reporting 83.5 million right up until the last minute.

Which to be fair… was possible if unlikely.

The bottom line is the leafs had signed a core that would have been together for 5 years with

Like 10 extra million to play with if it wasn’t for the pandemic. You can argue that they didn’t pivot.

But they original cap hit problems weren’t an issue after the first year it was normal time

 

[HellasLEAF]

For me it was when greedy nylander held out for three months
Got paid for all the money he missed and flopped with a 27 point season.

Dubas showed his true colors right there by giving in to the only player who absolutely MISSED games by being greedy.

Knew right from that moment dubas was weak

Not to nitpick but, Dubas actually held out against Nylander none of what you are saying it correct.

It was Marner he caved too. Even made sure Mitchy didn't miss any pre-season hockey..

 

[Clyde Brewer]

Shanahan said it was a 5 year plan.

Babcock had warned us that there would be pain.

Lou had the media under control, and we were beginning to develop a positive culture for the first time in years.

Despite things going exactly to plan, they tried to speed things up and sign Tavares. The kids got too good, too soon. Everyone's stats went up, and they followed by demanding big money contracts. Without that Tavares signing, we likely could have saved 1 million on Matthews, and 2-3 million on Marner's contact, and maybe got Nylander for under 6- not to mention saving Tavares' 11 million.

 

[HellasLEAF]

Another big step backwards was the realization the Leafs couldn't re-sign Zach Hyman. An already soft team just got softer. The Leafs have been losing depth due to cap every year the way a Stanley Cup winner has to shed salary. Only difference is they never won anything.

Might just have to wait out the storm a couple years until the cap goes up again. Hope Matthews resigns. Or move Marner, Nylander or Tavares (somehow). It's the only answer really.

 

[notdoneyet]

Not to nitpick but, Dubas actually held out against Nylander none of what you are saying it correct.

It was Marner he caved too. Even made sure Mitchy didn't miss any pre-season hockey..

Dubas didnt hold out against nylander, nylander held out then called dubas to make a deal and was paid all the money he missed out in for the last three months.
What did nylander lose for holding out and actually missing games. Nothing he got paid 10.2 million for coming to the team out of shape and putting up a 27 point season

Marner didnt hold out. His agent negotiated the best deal he could. Marner didn’t miss any games and gave us a monster year. The rumour was marner wanted 8x8 but dubas wouldntbsugn him to that. So what do they do put marner with tavares and he had the best goal scoring year of his career. Why would marner give a discount when nylander and matthews didnt. How stupid was it of lou not giving him bonus clauses like he did with others.
Why should marner give a discount when he was scoring more than anyone on the team plus killing penalties.

Nylander and marner agents negotiated contracts but only one held out and missed games

 

[sxvnert]

The Habs series was the last straw. Since then Dubas is choosing his ego over whats best for the team.
"The cap was flat, it wasn't his fault"....then it was time he adjusted to the new landscape by moving out salary. Instead he stuck to "big four" just to prove the fanbase/detractors wrong.
At this point, Dubas is worse than Burke.

 

[Clyde Brewer]

Dubas didnt hold out against nylander, nylander held out then called dubas to make a deal and was paid all the money he missed out in for the last three months.
What did nylander lose for holding out and actually missing games. Nothing he got paid 10.2 million for coming to the team out of shape and putting up a 27 point season

Marner didnt hold out. His agent negotiated the best deal he could. Marner didn’t miss any games and gave us a monster year. The rumour was marner wanted 8x8 but dubas wouldntbsugn him to that. So what do they do put marner with tavares and he had the best goal scoring year of his career. Why would marner give a discount when nylander and matthews didnt. How stupid was it of lou not giving him bonus clauses like he did with others.
Why should marner give a discount when he was scoring more than anyone on the team plus killing penalties.

Nylander and marner agents negotiated contracts but only one held out and missed games

I think if Dubas would have performed his super bend over manoeuvre and extremely over pay Nylander, as he did Marner, then Willy wouldn't have missed any games.

 

[notdoneyet]

Shanahan said it was at year plan.

Babcock had warned us that there would be pain.

Lou had the media under control, and we were beginning to develop a positive culture for the first time in years.

Despite things going exactly to plan, they tried to speed things up and sign Tavares. The kids got too good, too soon. Everyone's stats went up, and they followed by demanding big money contracts. Without that Tavares signing, we likely could have saved 1 million on Matthews, and 2-3 million on Marner's contact, and maybe got Nylander for under 6- not to mention saving Tavares' 11 million.

See i really dont care about money for matthews and marner and willy contracts what pisses me off is the number of years. They should all have been 8 years. That way we would be paying them a little less than their worth for another 3 years instead now we get to give them raises when they shouldnt have them.

Matthews will need a raise probably 15m
Marner will want a raise probably 12.5
Nylander will certainly want at least 10/11 million.

Figure that out for those three and what we can afford

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Had major doubts after the CBJ series but the moment I knew it was over was when they choked epically to the Habs.

Serious changes should have been made right there and then.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

Lmao. This place is so dramatic.

Lmao is right.

You were the guy that told everyone at the time that Babcock was the problem, and once he was gone and Keefe was installed as coach, the team would take off to new heights and be amazing.

And why pray tell was that going to happen according to you?

Well you claimed Babcock’s personality was a problem, but more importantly, you claimed his systems were the biggest problem.

Well guess what?

Here we are in season 4 of Dubas with Keefe as coach and the team still can’t get out of the first round.

Your other scapegoat and whipping boy Lamoriello, has certainly done it though and won GM of the year twice back to back since leaving.

So Lmao is right.

What’s your excuse/explanation this year?

Lou’s supposedly bad signings? Covid? Flat Cap?

Or, are you going to shower us with more fancy stats and buzz phrases “like success isn’t linear” and tell us we’re on the verge of winning the Stanley Cup?

I‘ll tell you what the problem is here, it’s no big secret, as most of us who played the game already know what it is.

The problem here is that Dubas has a flawed team building and game approach strategy. His fatal mistake is that he’s built a team that is only capable of playing one style of play—offence. So as currently constructed, this team simply can’t adjust their style of play when it requires it, as they are too one dimensional both mentally and physically.

That’s why when the playoffs start, Leaf opponents know they simply have to clog up the neutral zone and trap the crap out of the Leafs and they have an excellent chance at winning the series.

Now during the regular season, most teams are not going to fully commit to that style of play on most nights, as it’s actually extremely physically demanding. But good teams do fully commit to it during the playoffs and during the regular season when it’s required. Full commitment requires throwing hits and blocking shots with whatever part of your body you have to.

The offensive antidote to that defensive scheme is really simple and old school, you dump the puck in and attack with speed. If you don’t get the puck back first , then you pound and punish the other teams defence and finish all your checks. If you keep doing it, especially in a 7 game series, your opponents defence will start backing up in anticipation of the dump, which is then when you can go back to attempting to carry the pack back into the o-zone. At that point you’ve got your opponent on their heels as they don’t know what’s coming.

Unfortunately, the Leafs, as currently constructed, do not have any players of substance that are capable of switching to that style of play when it requires it. Until that changes, the Leafs will never win anything more than perhaps a playoff round.

It is laughable that a Zamboni driver beat this team, but the cause was that exact same issue. Their opponent committed to an iron clad playoff style defensive scheme and stifled the Leaf offence. And just like they do during the playoffs, the Leaf stars got all sulky and frustrated and their opponent got the win.

What you seemingly seem to think, is that Kyle Dubas is such a genius that he can piece together such an overwhelmingly skilled offence (think 80’s Oilers) that the Leafs can overwhelm any opponent during the playoffs. In a non salary cap system, that might be possible given the Leafs superior financial resources. But, in a salary cap system, I don’t believe they will ever build a team strong enough to play a one dimensional, offence first, possession style game and win it all. A playoff round or two? Perhaps. But 4 rounds and a cup? No going to happen IMO.

That’s where I believe you and Dubas are completely flawed in your logic.

Many if not most “negative posters” (as we get labeled here) know this.

So the solution here is that either Dubas pivots his team building and construction approach, (seems unlikely at this point) or he and his puppet coach Sheldon Keefe both need to go.

That’s just my opinion. I’m not going to shower you with fancy stats and buzzwords to make my point.

But I do believe many other members here also know that what I point out is the heart of the issue with this current Leafs team.

I know in the end we all just want to bring the cup home, so with respect, all the best.

-CaptainCrunch17

 

[Lauro]

Not sure it is yet.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

Been saying since the signing. Bringing Tavares in set them back.

It committed too much money to a small group of forwards and left too little money to build the rest of the roster.

For me it was the second that Leafs announced they were turning the reigns of the organization to green horn GM Kyle Dubas..

They were coming off a franchise record setting 105 points after being dead last a couple of years earlier and everything was looking great with all the young players and top draft picks in the organization.

Shanahan after relying of vets Babcock and Lou Lam to dig this franchise out of dumps after missing playoffs 10 of previous 11 seasons and restoring it to respectability and the playoffs again.

Rookie President hires a rookie GM .. What could possible go wrong?

To me it seemed like the JFJ fiasco all over again.

It was as if the team learned nothing from those lost years.

 

[Puckstuff]

Shanahan said it was a 5 year plan.
Babcock had warned us that there would be pain.
Lou had the media under control, and we were beginning to develop a positive culture for the first time in years.
Despite things going exactly to plan, they tried to speed things up and sign Tavares. The kids got too good, too soon. Everyone's stats went up, and they followed by demanding big money contracts. Without that Tavares signing, we likely could have saved 1 million on Matthews, and 2-3 million on Marner's contact, and maybe got Nylander for under 6- not to mention saving Tavares' 11 million.

That's crazy to think about.

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

Just ain't feeling it anymore tbh

 

[alliuk12]

From 5 or 6 years ago the team plays with no emotion or guts they have been garbage around the boards and are only good when there is no pressure on them

 

[AllDay28]

Are the Leafs not 4-4-1? Why are people constantly overreacting? It's concerning

 

[darrylsittler27]

Just ain't feeling it anymore tbh

No one is. This team is lost with no identity and missing many of the key ingredients needed to win a cup. I think Dubas is fired by GM 20 now. You can truly tell, fans have had enough of hot air and promises.

 

[LeafsFan89]

When we signed JT (even though I like him).

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

No one is. This team is lost with no identity and missing many of the key ingredients needed to win a cup. I think Dubas is fired by GM 20 now. You can truly tell, fans have had enough of hot air and promises.

And don't get me wrong. I want to. I really do, but at least, as a positive, I don't ever get disappointed anymore.

 

[alliuk12]

Are the Leafs not 4-4-1? Why are people constantly overreacting? It's concerning

This has been going on for years. When is the right time to overreact if not now 6 years and they haven’t made it past that first round. So like a ostrich do we stick our head in the sand and say it’s not that bad

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Another big step backwards was the realization the Leafs couldn't re-sign Zach Hyman. An already soft team just got softer. The Leafs have been losing depth due to cap every year the way a Stanley Cup winner has to shed salary. Only difference is they never won anything.

Might just have to wait out the storm a couple years until the cap goes up again. Hope Matthews resigns. Or move Marner, Nylander or Tavares (somehow). It's the only answer really.

Got to wonder what that contract would look like. What number does Matthews think is reasonable, or that he could get? McDavid's number would seem like a reasonable ceiling (or maybe a little high). But, will he settle for that? Is he looking for something like $14m?

What type of performance should we expect from Matthews if he wants McDavid money or more? Seems like it would be reasonable to expect the guy to carry his team on his back and be the best player on any team for every playoff game. If he has that kind of performance, along with contributions from the other Fab Four, I'd expect multiple playoff rounds won - absolutely nothing less. None of this win one round B.S.