When did you know it was over for this group?

[Jojalu]

If the leafs start winning cups it will be interesting to see your posts wondering why everyone is so happy. I don't understand what concepts here are confusing. When your team is the biggest joke on the planet and are 0-10 on series clinching games and the only team to not win a playoff series in the cap era, fans will be disgruntled. And if the team succeeds and wins cups, fans will be happy. What on earth is confusing about this?

None of this nonsense is true.

Most Americans could care less about hockey.

The Browns, Sacremento, The Bills for 20 years etc. all have a more frustrated fanbase.

They never make the playoffs, never have regular season success.

The 0-9 is a very odd stat and doesn't deserve to be overlooked but it doesn't make them the worst franchise in sports.

 

[Dekes For Days]

How many series clinching games have the Leafs lost in a row?

The Leafs are 3-10 in series-deciding games in the Matthews/Marner era, and for reasons entirely different from what you seem to think.

 

[leafs in five]

There was one season where the fanbase was united. When the all-rookie team snuck into the playoffs. Our future was so bright and literally everybody was crazy excited.

Then the Marleau contract was signed which signified (in typical mlse style) a premature ending of the rebuild. That created a small divide. But then the unprecedented dramatic overpayments occurred. A large portion of the fanbase was smart enough to know that it signified that the team would be good, but would never have the depth to be great. (which is proven as 100% true post season after post season after post season). And that mega divide still marches on.

in other words there was one season where the fanbase here acted appropriately?

None of this nonsense is true.

Most Americans could care less about hockey.

An ever increasing number of Canadians as well

 

[Oscar Peterson]

in other words there was one season where the fanbase here acted appropriately?


An ever increasing number of Canadians as well

Really? To me it seems the opposite is true.
The majority of people I know didn't care about the Leafs at all until the Matthews-Marner-Nylander era started, now tons of friends/colleagues are pretty invested. I see way more people sharing and reposting Leafs content on Instagram especially in the last three years.

 

[leafs in five]

Really? To me it seems the opposite is true.
The majority of people I know didn't care about the Leafs at all until the Matthews-Marner-Nylander era started, now tons of friends/colleagues are pretty invested. I see way more people sharing and reposting Leafs content on Instagram especially in the last three years.

I guess I am thinking more like youth participation in hockey vs soccer but that's interesting. I certainly enjoy watching this Leafs group more than I did the teams that had Domi and Kypreos intentionally injuring key opposition players, sometimes in series we won. I haven't had name/numbered jersey since Clark and I want one of this year's throwbacks

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

Is it over Leafchuds?

 

[Gary Nylund]

The leafs have the longest cup drought and are the ONLY team to not win 1 single playoff series in the cap era. The team is the joke not only of the NHL, but of all professional sports. I was in Burma with a leaf hat on (before things went completely south) and some villager that I don't even think had electricity started shouting something at me in his language. I didn't understand so he yelled at someone else who came out, they pointed at my hat, and in very broken English the other guy said "1967". Then they both left laughing their asses off. That's a true f***ing story. We are the biggest joke on the planet. Of COURSE many fans are frustrated and bitter. We lose in the first round EVERY freaking year. 0-9 on series clinching games. Fans are acting appropriately.

Your stance is remarkably confusing.

Can you imagine if the leafs just won 5 cups in a row? Imagine all of the posts from literally everybody here was crazy positive and optimistic. It's just people gushing over our great players and management that keeps winning cup after cup after cup. You know, fans acting appropriately.

Then someone like you goes in those threads saying "Why in the world are the fans so positive? What is going on? Why are the fans acting appropriately in response to the product? It makes no sense. We should all be booing their success and complaining." Like, what the hell? What on earth is happening?

Hottest team in the NHL, closing in on 1st place overall. I know that doesn't fit your narrative but it's still true, and more to the point, it's not a joke.

There's some good and some bad in most everything and I feel sorry for you if you can only see the bad. But if that's the way it is, you should probably spend your time and energy someplace else.

Very funny some random guy in Burma got a lovely place to live in your head rent free.

LOL, indeed.

I think for most in life, the goal is to be happy and invest yourself in things that bring you joy. So if we were all happy, no one would question why. I think we are questioning why something that brings, idk what I'm seeing here, sadness, anger, frustration, embarrassment, is keeping someone invested. Especially when these emotions can't seem to be lifted or dissipated until a certain threshold is achieved.

I expect results too, but won't let this experience torture me throughout the journey. I'll save that for after game 7 and the summer that follows. But 24/7 torture? Not for me.

100% this. The summers have been long and brutal for a while now but the pain fades with time and I'm enjoying the hell out of this season, probably more than I thought possible and that makes me happy. I really feel sorry for those miserable people who compare the Leafs to Charlie Brown and keep bringing up the line about doing the same thing over again expecting different results being insanity (as if every season wasn't different than any previous season). This team rocks, we are one of the best teams in the NHL and are one of the favorites to win the cup. There is plenty to enjoy here and the past does not dictate the future, this is not a movie, it is real life.

None of this nonsense is true.

Most Americans could care less about hockey.

The Browns, Sacremento, The Bills for 20 years etc. all have a more frustrated fanbase.

They never make the playoffs, never have regular season success.

The 0-9 is a very odd stat and doesn't deserve to be overlooked but it doesn't make them the worst franchise in sports.

And Boston fans have it good and have had it good for a long time now. But those Red Sox boy, I can't even imagine how frustrated their fans must have been for a very long time there.

 

[The Iceman]

Still 3rd (PTS% is the logical way to look at the standings). Closing in on 2nd though and if they win the next 17 games or so, they will overtake Boston for 1st overall (maybe).

And it seems reasonable in Bettmans eyes that 2 of 1, 2, 6 ranked teams will be out after 2 rounds of the playoffs guaranteed.

 

[slozo]

Some threads do not age gracefully but this one is HOF worthy

It's aged just fine so far, this is about failure in the playoffs, specifically having awesome seasons and losing in the first round, and the poster thinks this core group can't get it done IN THE PLAYOFFS.

That remains 100% CORRECT at this moment in time, whether it's after a bad loss in October or after a 7-0 win over the Ducks in December (who we will never, EVER, play in the first round unfortunately).

While I'm not 100% on board with the poster's take; I don't feel it's doom and gloom to thoughtfully discuss why he thinks this core group can't get it done in the playoffs . . . and it's probably only this year and maybe next potentially before it may get broken up, so we'll see.

My take is, as an almost 50 yr old, Leaf fan my whole life . . . I've seen some very good Leaf teams in my day, and even in the Burns / Quinn eras, I thought those teams were missing something each time to truly win it all, and both of those teams in my opinion did even better than I thought they could - they overperformed. This current team? I also think they are missing a couple of minor but key elements, but they have greatly underperformed in the playoffs, as a team.

So potentially we need a core change; or a couple of key players added might still make the difference without changing the core; but it's an absolutely valid point that this is a failed playoff team, and nothing in the regular season changes that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

While I'm not 100% on board with the poster's take; I don't feel it's doom and gloom to thoughtfully discuss why he thinks this core group can't get it done in the playoffs . . . and it's probably only this year and maybe next potentially before it may get broken up, so we'll see.

Saying the playoffs are over for us before they've even started is anything but "thoughtful discussion".

 

[IPS]

Mess in your mind what is involved in 'cheering for the Leafs' ?

Priority of cheering:

1) His personal opinions
2) The New York Islanders
3) The Leafs

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Mess in your mind what is involved in 'cheering for the Leafs' ?

I can answer that from my perspective.

Cheering on an organization is cheering for the team and its players to succeed. And that includes decisions made by management. And being critical of the things that WON'T lead to success.

If you cheered for a team and they were intentionally scoring on their own net and over and over again, at that point is it ok to boo? To focus on the problems, and not the positives? Or would only a "bad fan" act like that? There's a line somewhere, right? Ok, for some of us, that line is getting amazing stats in the regular season and then playing like you're scared for your life in the playoffs. For shooting the puck into the stands over and over again in the playoffs to avoid getting hit. Of crying in the penalty box, and then later saying "we're grown men". Of refusing to play for your team unless you get significantly overpaid in relation to direct comparables. And on and on we can go. I mean, it's not like this team constantly succeeds and there's "negative nancies". It's more that this team is continuously a joke and we have a fanbase primarily of blind apathetic loyalty.

And cheering for a team in modern sports also involves management. And when a rookie gm caves into all his star players and hands out unprecedented dramatic overpayments, the GOOD fans are critical of it. We don't just blindly cheer. We point out over and over again that the rookie doesn't know what he's doing and ruined an absolutely phenomenal rebuild. We see the results each and every year in the playoffs. And that's the frustrating thing. We are RIGHT in our criticism. Everything we say is proven 100% true over and over and over again. And we're just called "negative" and "bad fans" for being smart enough to point out the very real problems that lead to our endless humiliations.

In short, when you have a sports franchise that is a complete and utter joke in the post season, the GOOD fans want better and demand better. The bad fans cheer on anything blue and white without even a second thought.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I can answer that from my perspective.

Cheering on an organization is cheering for the team and its players to succeed. And that includes decisions made by management. And being critical of the things that WON'T lead to success.

If you cheered for a team and they were intentionally scoring on their own net and over and over again, at that point is it ok to boo? To focus on the problems, and not the positives? Or would only a "bad fan" act like that? There's a line somewhere, right? Ok, for some of us, that line is getting amazing stats in the regular season and then playing like you're scared for your life in the playoffs. For shooting the puck into the stands over and over again in the playoffs to avoid getting hit. Of crying in the penalty box, and then later saying "we're grown men". Of refusing to play for your team unless you get significantly overpaid in relation to direct comparables. And on and on we can go. I mean, it's not like this team constantly succeeds and there's "negative nancies". It's more that this team is continuously a joke and we have a fanbase primarily of blind apathetic loyalty.

And cheering for a team in modern sports also involves management. And when a rookie gm caves into all his star players and hands out unprecedented dramatic overpayments, the GOOD fans are critical of it. We don't just blindly cheer. We point out over and over again that the rookie doesn't know what he's doing and ruined an absolutely phenomenal rebuild. We see the results each and every year in the playoffs. And that's the frustrating thing. We are RIGHT in our criticism. Everything we say is proven 100% true over and over and over again. And we're just called "negative" and "bad fans" for being smart enough to point out the very real problems that lead to our endless humiliations.

In short, when you have a sports franchise that is a complete and utter joke in the post season, the GOOD fans want better and demand better. The bad fans cheer on anything blue and white without even a second thought.

Nothing you do or say will ever matter to the team or change their behaviour even a fraction of a percent. You bring absolutely 0 value to anything involving the Leafs over a guy blindly cheering anything blue and white. It's uneblieveably sad that an adult human thinks this highly of himself for anonymously and obsessively complaining about Dubas on an internet forum lmao.

 

[leafs in five]

Everything we say is proven 100% true over and over and over again. And we're just called "negative" and "bad fans" for being smart enough to point out the very real problems that lead to our endless humiliations.

In short, when you have a sports franchise that is a complete and utter joke in the post season, the GOOD fans want better and demand better. The bad fans cheer on anything blue and white without even a second thought.

In October and early Nov this thread was GOOD fans telling each other that they were correct to have written this team off as failures when they did, after the zamboni driver game or whenever. Based on the team's results and play since then I think that these GOOD fans were a bit off in this assessment (also based on their obvious skill and composition and track record but I know that these are disputable). Obviously people who think that regular season success means nothing or is even a negative thing because it's pond hockey and not comparable to playoff hockey are entitled to that view. But I don't think they are '100% correct' and if their position is, this team, and the management group that assembled it, is already and forevermore a failure, because four forwards make whatever percent of the cap because the GM caved to them then what is there really to discuss. anyway

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Nothing you do or say will ever matter to the team or change their behaviour even a fraction of a percent. You bring absolutely 0 value to anything involving the Leafs over a guy blindly cheering anything blue and white. It's uneblieveably sad that an adult human thinks this highly of himself for anonymously and obsessively complaining about Dubas on an internet forum lmao.

Well, that's the same for all of us. It's even weirder for the people that post way more than me cheering on something that is an abhorrent disgrace. The cheering doesn't accomplish anything. My posts are just more in line with the performance of the product.

In October and early Nov this thread was GOOD fans telling each other that they were correct to have written this team off as failures when they did, after the zamboni driver game or whenever. Based on the team's results and play since then I think that these GOOD fans were a bit off in this assessment (also based on their obvious skill and composition and track record but I know that these are disputable). Obviously people who think that regular season success means nothing or is even a negative thing because it's pond hockey and not comparable to playoff hockey are entitled to that view. But I don't think they are '100% correct' and if their position is, this team, and the management group that assembled it, is already and forevermore a failure, because four forwards make whatever percent of the cap because the GM caved to them then what is there really to discuss. anyway

Fans like me have been VERY consistent since the signings of the unprecedented dramatic overpayments that the leafs will now be great in pond hockey regular season and horrible in the playoffs due to lack of depth. We've been right. Over and over again. And I think that's what frustrates the eternal optimists the most. We're always right.

 

[slozo]

Saying the playoffs are over for us before they've even started is anything but "thoughtful discussion".

Oh my god, it's so useless to have discussions on this site sometimes!! yeesh

I didn't say that. And the poster didn't either, although by extension of his argument he thinks we'll likely fail again in the playoffs (high chance of probability going by history).

But I will say this - discrediting people's points by giving out one-liner strawman arguments is, absolutely, "anything but thoughtful discussion".

Come back here after the first round . . . or actually talk about his points in a thoughtful manner.

 

[leafs in five]

my own position as a BAD fan fwiw is that a GM's job is to in unique circumstances assemble a team that is good enough to compete with the best teams in the league for a cup. I think Dubas has done that, maybe they will never win one and if they do I don't imagine my life will change much. when I read the hysterics on here I always think back to the Sens' pizza line teams. I lived in Ottawa for many years and watched those teams just carve up various iterations of crummy and mediocre Leafs teams. They were dominant, and they never won a cup, and maybe they could have made better a different deadline trade of something one year and actually won but in the end it's kind of impossible to say. But I don't think Sens fans that liked that team and thought they were good were bad or ignorant.

Well, that's the same for all of us. It's even weirder for the people that post way more than me cheering on something that is an abhorrent disgrace. The cheering doesn't accomplish anything. My posts are just more in line with the performance of the product.


Fans like me have been VERY consistent since the signings of the unprecedented dramatic overpayments that the leafs will now be great in pond hockey regular season and horrible in the playoffs due to lack of depth. We've been right. Over and over again. And I think that's what frustrates the eternal optimists the most. We're always right.

you're pretty damaged mate

 

[Dekes For Days]

We are RIGHT in our criticism.

You're factually not though. Literally everything you've said has been wrong and dramatized.

Our young RFAs were paid appropriately and consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts, and while it's disappointing that we haven't won a series in the playoffs yet, the reasons for that have absolutely nothing to do with anything you've talked about.

 

[Jojalu]

Well, that's the same for all of us. It's even weirder for the people that post way more than me cheering on something that is an abhorrent disgrace. The cheering doesn't accomplish anything. My posts are just more in line with the performance of the product.


Fans like me have been VERY consistent since the signings of the unprecedented dramatic overpayments that the leafs will now be great in pond hockey regular season and horrible in the playoffs due to lack of depth. We've been right. Over and over again. And I think that's what frustrates the eternal optimists the most. We're always right.

So, are you saying the Leafs have zero chance to win this year in the playoffs?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Oh my god, it's so useless to have discussions on this site sometimes!! yeesh

I didn't say that. And the poster didn't either, although by extension of his argument he thinks we'll likely fail again in the playoffs (high chance of probability going by history).

But I will say this - discrediting people's points by giving out one-liner strawman arguments is, absolutely, "anything but thoughtful discussion".

Come back here after the first round . . . or actually talk about his points in a thoughtful manner.

1st bolded - I was referring to the thread title. That probably wasn't very clear, sorry about that.

2nd bolded - going by history makes no sense. The past does not dictate the future and the team is different every year from the year previous.

That poster just called the team an "abhorrent disgrace" which is pretty consistent with all else he has said on this subject. I'm all for thoughtful discussion but IMHO, at this point in time, thoughtful discussion with someone who trashes the team in such an over the top fashion is simply not possible. But if you think his posts are "thoughtful", you're entitled to that opinion no matter how wrong I think you are and if you want to have a "thoughtful" discussion with him then by all means, have at it.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

P

Well, that's the same for all of us. It's even weirder for the people that post way more than me cheering on something that is an abhorrent disgrace. The cheering doesn't accomplish anything. My posts are just more in line with the performance of the product.


Fans like me have been VERY consistent since the signings of the unprecedented dramatic overpayments that the leafs will now be great in pond hockey regular season and horrible in the playoffs due to lack of depth. We've been right. Over and over again. And I think that's what frustrates the eternal optimists the most. We're always right.

Oh f*** right off with that. Betting on the team to lose is always the easiest option. Being constantly pessimistic will always give much better odds.

You’re not englightened or understand hockey any better, you’re just playing the numbers game.

There’s also a huge difference between being critical of the team and revelling in the misery.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I genuinely believe this team has been different ever since the start of last season. Removing the end result of the TB series, you cannot deny how our boys showed up and went toe to toe with B2B cup champs and ultimately lost a coin flip game 7. The team that played in the playoffs last season was worthy of a long run. Unfortunately, so was TB. It really was just a bounce here or there that made the difference.

I don't think this team is any different from last season at all. I think that change in attitude was made last season, and they just didn't get the results.

They've been committed to winning for longer then just a month and a half.

Lets start giving this team the credit they deserve instead of doubting if this is just "another mirage"

 

[slozo]

1st bolded - I was referring to the thread title. That probably wasn't very clear, sorry about that.

2nd bolded - going by history makes no sense. The past does not dictate the future and the team is different every year from the year previous.

That poster just called the team an "abhorrent disgrace" which is pretty consistent with all else he has said on this subject. I'm all for thoughtful discussion but IMHO, at this point in time, thoughtful discussion with someone who trashes the team in such an over the top fashion is simply not possible. But if you think his posts are "thoughtful", you're entitled to that opinion no matter how wrong I think you are and if you want to have a "thoughtful" discussion with him then by all means, have at it.

We'll agree to disagree about history being important to learn from. I think it's extremely important.
And if the team has the same core, same basic structure . . . hard to ignore history potentially repeating itself. While not a certainty, without significant additions to this team before the TD that will fill our deficiencies . . . I think history repeats itself.

I still cheer for the team, watch the great hockey, I enjoy it, I do.
But the way I have thought about this team since the epic failure against an inferior Montreal team . . . I'm extremely jaded about their future, and waiting for real change and an actual playoff round win or two.

 

[horner]

This team is different this yr.
They aren't chasing goals and assist , they are playing a team first game.
All of our players a playing a 200' game, deffence and details first.
Maybe they finally figured this shit out.
Keep it going.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Oh f*** right off with that. Betting on the team to lose is always the easiest option. Being constantly pessimistic will always give much better odds.
You’re not englightened or understand hockey any better, you’re just playing the numbers game.

Yep. It doesn't take insight or knowledge to be eternally negative. It's literally just picking the no-lose position.

We're bad in the regular season? I'm right! We didn't make the playoffs!
Lose in round 1? I'm right! We didn't even make the 2nd round!
Lose in round 2? I'm right! Can't even win the division!
Lose in round 3? I'm right! Can't even win the conference!
Lose in round 4? I'm right! 1967!

And if you win the cup, nobody cares what you said, because the fans who would call you out are off celebrating.
31 out of 32 teams have their seasons end in a loss, and there will always be a way to twist anything that's not winning the cup into a negative.

There’s also a huge difference between being critical of the team and revelling in the misery.

Also very well put.