Whats the argument that Sweden still is a hockey-power?

[Eye of Ra]

I am still adjusting to Eye of Ra's new avatar. The other one perfectly represented his edgy posting style, and I am at a loss as to why he changed it.

ah yes.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

 

[Eye of Ra]

Finnish defense and wingers are pretty average though

Still much better than Sweden.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Sweden has not made semifinals in WC since 2018. Even losing to the likes of Latvia now.

No gold in U20 since 2012.

Not as good players in NHL as Canada, USA, Finland and Russia.

Its pretty clear that top 4 is Canada, USA, Finland, Russia and that this 4 nations are in a league of their own. Then its tier 2 with Czechia, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland and Slovakia.

Of course with Russia not in anymore, its Canada, USA and Finland....but if they where, they would be just as good.

People need to stop talking about "big 7" or "big 6" , Canada, USA, Finland and Russia are far ahead of Czechia, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland and Slovakia at everything.

Hopefully we can have a serious and civil debate about this topic.

The WC takes place during the playoffs therefore it's not a best on best tournament, therefore it doesn't mean shit.

 

[613Leafer]

In a best on best tournament, they still have elite defenceman with good depth (Hedman, Dahlin, Karlsson, Lindholm, Andersson, etc), elite goaltending (Ulmark + good depth), and a deep enough group of forwards (eg Zibanejed, Bratt, Nylander, Petersson, Lindholm, Kempe, Karlsson, Raymond, etc), albeit without the top top talent that some of the other countries have.

Not a ton of success in recent tournaments, but in a best on best tourney, they're still absolutely competitive for the gold.

 

[FinPanda]

Imagine measuring how strong the country is is hockey based on success in WHC which is not even close to best on best. Canada, USA, Sweden & Russia are the top 4 countries. Finland 5th.

Sweden is steadily producing top prospects every single year. Sweden is getting stronger, not weaker.

 

[Eye of Ra]

The WC takes place during the playoffs therefore it's not a best on best tournament, therefore it doesn't mean shit.

It means a bit. It shows what kind of depth the nations have.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You are talking about ancient stuff. Sweden has not made semifinals in WC since 2018.

Yes, it's a bit of a slump, but hardly ancient. They won the third most recent "best-on-best" Olympics, there just hasn't been that much since.

In U20, last years, Sweden has gotten knocked out in qf a couple times or ended 4th, long time ago with gold, back in 2012.

Yes, a slump for sure in terms of Gold, but overall consistent results. Two missed Semis is hardly enough to determine they are doomed forever.

U18 is too young, its bascially just kids, i dont look much into that. U20 is more important.

Where do you think U20 players are fed in from? They were all U18 players a year or two prior...

Yes there is many Swedes in NHL, but if look at the actual quality of the players, then Canada, Finland, Russia and USA is far ahead. Sweden is closer to Germany, Swiss, Slovaks and Czechs in terms of quality. Actually Sweden has far worse defenders than Germans, Swiss, Slovaks and Czechs but forwards and goalies pretty even.

All the players I listed are "quality" by any metric.

Other stats: 3rd in players, 3rd in goals scored, 3rd in assists, 3rd most total forwards, 3rd most total defensemen, a bit lower in goaltenders at 5th

11 forwards with at least 50 points (more than Russia or Finland), 11 forwards with at least 20 goals (more than Russia or Finland),

9 defensemen with a +/- greater than +10 (more than Russia and Finland combined), 12 defensemen that averaged more than 20 minutes ATOI (more than Russia and Finland combined). The likely 2022-23 Norris Trophy Winner.

3 goaltenders with at least 20 wins (more than Finland). The likely 2022-23 Vezina Trophy winner.

Its just that so many people are deluded and think Sweden is still good. It amazes me.

You are the one acting delusional, pretending Sweden is now equal to Switzerland.

 

[BattleLevel]

Did Sweden not win 2 of the last 5 world championships?

 

[Eye of Ra]

In a best on best tournament, they still have elite defenceman with good depth (Hedman, Dahlin, Karlsson, Lindholm, Andersson, etc), elite goaltending (Ulmark + good depth), and a deep enough group of forwards (eg Zibanejed, Bratt, Nylander, Petersson, Lindholm, Kempe, Karlsson, Raymond, etc), albeit without the top top talent that some of the other countries have.

Not a ton of success in recent tournaments, but in a best on best tourney, they're still absolutely competitive for the gold.

Why are people always ingnoring the defending part. None of the Ds you brought up is good at defending.

Ullmark has only been elite 1 season. Rermains to see if he will keep being it. He let in 4 goals against Canada in WC last year in qf.

Exactly, not same top talent as the other nations, while being weak in the own zone. Therefore Sweden will be a non-factor in a best on best.

Imagine measuring how strong the country is is hockey based on success in WHC which is not even close to best on best. Canada, USA, Sweden & Russia are the top 4 countries. Finland 5th.

Sweden is steadily producing top prospects every single year. Sweden is getting stronger, not weaker.

I never said its only about WC. Its a mix beetween wc, juniors, NHL. Its not like Sweden is doing good in U20 either.

Finland have superstars such as Heiskanen, Barkov, Rantanen, Laine, Aho etc that Sweden dont have and Finland are far better at defending. Just look at all the golds Finland have the last years in og, wc and u20.

How many of this top prospects turns out good? Most of the swedish top prospects turns into busts. Brännström, Hållander, Jacob Olofsson, Fagemo, Lias Andersson, Broberg, Söderström, Björnfot, Albert Johansson, Holtz, Eklund, Höglander, Gunler, Niederbach, Henrikson, Norlinder, Boqvist, Lundeström, Lundkvist, Bemström, Dahlen, A.Nylander and many others. So many busts.

Did Sweden not win 2 of the last 5 world championships?

We won 2017 and 2018. But thats years ago. We have not gotten past QF since 2018.

 

[BattleLevel]

Why are people always ingnoring the defending part. None of the Ds you brought up is good at defending.

Ullmark has only been elite 1 season. Rermains to see if he will keep being it. He let in 4 goals against Canada in WC last year in qf.

Exactly, not same top talent as the other nations, while being weak in the own zone. Therefore Sweden will be a non-factor in a best on best.


I never said its only about WC. Its a mix beetween wc, juniors, NHL. Its not like Sweden is doing good in U20 either.

Finland have superstars such as Heiskanen, Barkov, Rantanen, Laine, Aho etc that Sweden dont have and Finland are far better at defending. Just look at all the golds Finland have the last years in og, wc and u20.

How many of this top prospects turns out good? Most of the swedish top prospects turns into busts. Brännström, Hållander, Jacob Olofsson, Fagemo, Lias Andersson, Broberg, Söderström, Björnfot, Albert Johansson, Holtz, Eklund, Höglander, Gunler, Niederbach, Henrikson, Norlinder, Boqvist, Lundeström, Lundkvist, Bemström, Dahlen, A.Nylander and many others. So many busts.


We won 2017 and 2018. But thats years ago. We have not gotten past QF since 2018.

Ok. Personally, I'm going to need to see a lot more of a drop from Sweden in order to think of them as a secondary hockey nation.

 

[ESH]

It’s obvious Eye of Ra is going to just keep ignoring people when they bring up counterpoints.

It doesn’t matter that Sweden has Brodin, Lindholm, Ekholm, Larsson, etc on defense when you’ve already decided that they’re all terrible defensively.

 

[Eye of Ra]

It’s obvious Eye of Ra is going to just keep ignoring people when they bring up counterpoints.

It doesn’t matter that Sweden has Brodin, Lindholm, Ekholm, Larsson, etc on defense when you’ve already decided that they’re all terrible defensively.

@Miro4Norris in this thread is one who agrees with me

 

[jfc64]

814 - 436 Sweden vs Finland in NHL goals this season!

28 - 16 in players with 0.5 PPG or more!

25 - 8 in defensemen playing half of the games!

351 - 12 in games played by U23 defensemen!!

2 - 0 in Trophy candidates!

 

[Eye of Ra]

814 - 436 Sweden vs Finland in NHL goals this season!

28 - 16 in players with 0.5 PPG or more!

25 - 8 in defensemen playing half of the games!

351 - 12 in games played by U23 defensemen!!

2 - 0 in Trophy candidates!

thats only because there is many more swedes in NHL than finns. if you look per capita, top players, then finns are stronger than sweden. and also if you look at defending skills the finns smokes us. Dont just look at points...

 

[Phil McKraken]

Im not doing any baiting, im serious. I dont want people to praise Sweden. I want people to wake up and realise Sweden have regresed.

Here's what I don't get though. Let's say that's true, just for the sake of argument. Why is it so, uhm, 'pertinent' for you to tell people about it? I mean you never shut about how much we suck. If you are Swedish and people outside of Sweden have the perception that Swedish hockey is good, why do you want them to "wake up"? Do you hear how bizarrely you're behaving?

 

[Eye of Ra]

Here's what I don't get though. Let's say that's true, just for the sake of argument. Why is it so, uhm, 'pertinent' for you to tell people about it? I mean you never shut about how much we suck. If you are Swedish and people outside of Sweden have the perception that Swedish hockey is good, why do you want them to "wake up"? Do you hear how bizarrely you're behaving?

why do people argue who is better beetween mcdavid and draisaitl? etc

 

[Silky Johnson]

Couldn't agree more. I mean look at their best possible defense. You can't because they have no defense. Only 4th forwards like Karlsson and Dahlin who makes 10 terrible mistakes every game few points can't make up. At least Germany has Seider and Switzerland has Josi

Yeah...that Hedman guy really sucks in his own end too. Brodin and Lindholm as well.

And having two of the most talented offensive D-men in the world is also terrible.

Your post reads like it's written by a jealous fan sad that his own countries backend isn't very good.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

You still left Forsling outside of that team, he is +9 and has second most playing time in Florida (current best NHL team) , third best plus/minus in the team (against teams like Boston, Toronto and Carolina), going to the Stanley Cup final . A new defensive superstar if you ask me, seen him play !

Here’s how it works:

Ra: Why ppl saying Sweden has good defensemen, they suck defensively? Give me this list of fringe Finnish, Slovak and Czech NHL defensemen with zero points and 6 min TOI avg over Hedman and Karlsson who only score points.

— Why is Hedman played 25-30 min per game on back-to-back Cup champs if he sucks?

Ra: Because he’s only good offensively. Give me Jiricek and Kral over Hedman.

— Why are these Swedes playing top 2 minutes ES and on the PK on good NHL teams if they suck defensively?

Ra: Välimäki, Knazko over offensive defensemen Ekholm and Larsson.

— Why are NHL teams giving ~8 different Swedes top 2 ice time?

Ra: They are only good offensively. Give me Heinola and Niemelainen over all the Swedish defensemen.

— How are Brodin and Forsling bad defensively?

Ra: Ignores the question, tells someone ridiculing him that he actually wants a civilized (note he doesn’t say constructive) discussion and that long lost are the days of Tommy Albelin who he thinks was an awesome defender because he scored very few points as a bottom pairing defenseman.

etc.

 

[YippieKaey]

Here's a potential roster for Sweden if all players come to the WC:

Landeskog-Petterson-Nylander
Bratt-Zibanejad-Kempe
Arvidsson-Lindholm-Burakovsky
Forsberg-Backlund-Raymond

Hedman-Karlsson
Lindholm-Dahlin
Ekholm-Andersson

Ullmark
Gustavsson


So a couple of 100 point players, some high scoring and two way defensemen and good goalies. Team USA and Team Finland are not at this level even though Finland are close (they lose out on defense though).

So relax. The WC is usually won by the teams that get the most of their good players to come play. There, a case can be made that Sweden has some problems.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Yeah...that Hedman guy really sucks in his own end too. Brodin and Lindholm as well.

And having two of the most talented offensive D-men in the world is also terrible.

Your post reads like it's written by a jealous fan sad that his own countries backend isn't very good.

He is right. Finlands backend is much stronger than Swedens backend. Lindell, heiskanen, hakanpää, mikkola, ristolainen, määttä, jokiharju, välimaki are all good at defending. Heiskanen and välimaki great offensivly too. None of the Swedish defenders are good at defending. Thats a objective fact.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Here's a potential roster for Sweden if all players come to the WC:

Landeskog-Petterson-Nylander
Bratt-Zibanejad-Kempe
Arvidsson-Lindholm-Burakovsky
Forsberg-Backlund-Raymond

Hedman-Karlsson
Lindholm-Dahlin
Ekholm-Andersson

Ullmark
Gustavsson


So a couple of 100 point players, some high scoring and two way defensemen and good goalies. Team USA and Team Finland are not at this level even though Finland are close (they lose out on defense though).

So relax. The WC is usually won by the teams that get the most of their good players to come play. There, a case can be made that Sweden has some problems.

USA is just as strong as canada. Check the players they have in NHL. Also you forgot William Karlsson and forsling.

 

[Silky Johnson]

He is right. Finlands backend is much stronger than Swedens backend. Lindell, heiskanen, hakanpää, mikkola, ristolainen, määttä, jokiharju, välimaki are all good at defending. Heiskanen and välimaki great offensivly too. None of the Swedish defenders are good at defending. Thats a objective fact.

Not a chance.

 

[Peiskos]

Does anyone care about the world championships? I don't think Swedish players have really given a crap about that tournament since the time of the Sedins, Sundin, and Forsberg.

IIHF World Championship / Skoda Cup is meaningful in this era, we don't have any best vs best tournaments going on, winning this is a testament to depth and overall ability. What other mens level tournament can we point to at the moment? Sore loser mentality imo to hear the "does anyone care" stuff.

 

[YippieKaey]

USA is just as strong as canada. Check the players they have in NHL. Also you forgot William Karlsson and forsling.

The US is nowhere near Canada. Give me their lineup.