What's a Trigger for Dubas' pink slip ?
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OptimusReim
Registered User
- Jul 13, 2011
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Not sure what he's done to earn another opportunity, but at the same time, not sure what he did to earn the initial opportunity...
I think the short year and the Tavares injury saved his job this year but if they go down in round 1 again he's done, he HAS to win a round and at this point he might need 2
If you mean how Philly traded those 2, I don't think it worked out that great for Philly. For the teams that got Richards/Carter it did though.
I don't disagree trading Marner, but I think a Richards/Carter trade is a bad example.
Disagree, team performance primarily suffered due to bad contracts and a strange stubborness against fixing the D, but the trades themselves set them up well up front for the next decade. Vorachek/Couturier is as good of result as you could hope for from one single trade. Simmonds was a beast. Only real disappointment was that Schenn didn't live up to his billing, at the time of the trade he was the consensus best prospect in hockey projected as a true 1C.
The closest equivalents I could find would be us getting something like
Tkachuk+10th, Vilardi + 8th, Meier+ 7th (none are quite perfect, Vilardi too low, BT slightly too high after the year he had, Meier slightly old)
in one deal
and
Zegras+Comtois, Byfield/Turcotte + Kempe/Vilardi, in the other
Personally I think Matthews would pull a little more, Marner perhaps a little less. But in any case, if a new GM is making the "this core won't get it done, the culture is rotten" one package from each set + Tavares + Nylander + 15(+) million well spent in UFA is a one summer overhaul that results in a strong F group.
acrobaticgoalie
Registered User
- Jun 18, 2014
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Going into this season I like many of the moves that Dubas had made with Simmonds, Bogo and Brodie. I didn't really care for the Jumbo one but it did add more size, snarl and leadership. Dubas added depth at all positions and the season results showed we were going in the right direction. We played great defensive hockey all year long.
Going into this season my opinion of Dubas' leash was that if the team failed again he would have one more year. My reason being was because this team has had 2 GMs, 2 coaches and many lineup changes over the last 5 years and yet the same results. At some point the onus is on the players to get the job done. We can blame the coaches or GMs for certain decisions but at the end of the day, the players are the ones on the ice being paid to get the job done. I think everyone would agree that Bergevin has been a terrible GM for the Habs but he has a roster that is overachieving right now and they've come together collectively as a group and are getting the job done. That is what we need from our players is to show up. Especially our top guys. Our team was expected to be where the Habs are right now.
I still hold the same stance today. Dubas has this year to show a deep run or else he and likely Shanny and Keefe are gone. At the end of the day, you can make good moves but its a results business and changes need to be made.
Going into this season my opinion of Dubas' leash was that if the team failed again he would have one more year. My reason being was because this team has had 2 GMs, 2 coaches and many lineup changes over the last 5 years and yet the same results. At some point the onus is on the players to get the job done. We can blame the coaches or GMs for certain decisions but at the end of the day, the players are the ones on the ice being paid to get the job done. I think everyone would agree that Bergevin has been a terrible GM for the Habs but he has a roster that is overachieving right now and they've come together collectively as a group and are getting the job done. That is what we need from our players is to show up. Especially our top guys. Our team was expected to be where the Habs are right now.
I still hold the same stance today. Dubas has this year to show a deep run or else he and likely Shanny and Keefe are gone. At the end of the day, you can make good moves but its a results business and changes need to be made.
rumman
Registered User
- Sep 10, 2008
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Well yeah, but I don't think they'll struggle that much in the regular season, but if they do I would agree.
If they let Keefe and The Kid start next season, they may as well let them finish it. They (or at least Keefe) should be gone now, so they can get a fresh start in October with a new game plan.
Another mid season change just gives those players that like excuses, another excuse to fall back on.
Another mid season change just gives those players that like excuses, another excuse to fall back on.
The counter argument to that is to let the replacement make the decision on Rielly leading up to the deadline.
Not fully clear on what you are saying.
It would make sense to make a mid season replacement so they can make the decision on Rielly leading up to the deadline?
Yes. Assuming
A- he is not already extended at that point
B- the board has made the decision to move on from Dubas
While Rielly's contract isn't currently in the same bracket as the big 4, he is a part of the core and an asset of that stature. The decision of rent/re-sign/let walk should be made by who ever is at the helm long term, not by a lame duck serving out the year or by board directive.
Someone just posted an article in the trade thread about the Rielly decision leaning toward either an extension or trade completed this offseason. Which *could* make sense as a current board directive, to potentially avoid the very situation we're discussing.
I agree with the sentiment, which is another reason I'd prefer making the replacements now. I know many disagree, but I see Dubas as one who is already a lame duck (particularly if he keeps coach).
IMO it was a mistake to not let Babcock go after the 2019 POs and use the summer to find the right coach and determine what acquisitions were needed to compliment their style. Pin that on Shanahan, or the Board, or Dubas, but it was a mistake.
By holding on to Keefe (and Dubas by extension) I anticipate the exact same scenario to unfold where an opportunity to reset and start (somewhat) fresh is missed.
That's next offseason. If rumours/ comments about making no core moves are true Dubas remaining GM is because no one/ not enough people above has/have the conviction to be the one to say "we have to move Matthews/Marner". No one wants to be the guy responsible for ordering a move that could still go down like Neidermayer/Kurvers.
Another failed season while holding the status quo makes wholesale changes
A- more palatable to management,media, fans
B- lets you bring in a GM with a "clean slate" which is a layer of corporate insulation.
If 2021-2022 tanks the incoming GM has some tough decisions but also an enviable asset base to quickly implement an on ice vision.
Again, a reasonable perspective.
I suppose the difference is I don't see the point in awaiting another failed season to pull the trigger.
I think the simplest answer is that if the leading paragraph is true then underpinning fear of giving up on the core too early is matched by the belief that a failed season is not a given, perhaps even unlikely.
Call it sunk cost fallacy, gamblers fallacy, stubborn pride, perseverance and soon to be rewarded faith, I don't think there's internal appetite to give up on the core yet, and I don't think that it stops at Dubas.
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Awful lot of new Leaf fans who don't seem to know much of the history of this team. These kinds of trades RARELY work out well for the Leafs...
My fear now is one of two scenarios, both awful:
- The board decides they're not making the money they should and start making demands of the management. It never ends well when the board gets involved...
- Management feels pressured to "build a playoff team" and starts unloading guys for "proven playoff performers", and we watch them repeat 1995-1998 and 2004-2008 again.
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