Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

[Gabriel426]

All players are paid in US dollars but obviously taxed at different rates

I know, it was a joke

 

[ACC1224]

I know, it was a joke

Guess I don’t get it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So $10.9M is less than $10.55M?

No, but 5 is less than 6, and 10.55m x 5 is worse than 10.9m x 6.

 

[notDatsyuk]

No, but 5 is less than 6, and 10.55m x 5 is worse than 10.9m x 6.

Are you aware that the more you spin the less sense you make?

 

[ULF_55]

Dubas overstocking on the small marginal skill was always so infuriating to me. I would have been curious to hear the pro scouting meetings about guys like Petan and Malgin and actually figure out what they wanted from these guys best case scenario, likely scenario, worst case scenario.

Should Matthews be given a free pass for being non-physical?

You can accept 170 lb. players aren't going to be wrecking balls, but shouldn't the guys with the physical ability and supposed leaders not be held to a higher standard?

 

[Stephen]

Should Matthews be given a free pass for being non-physical?

You can accept 170 lb. players aren't going to be wrecking balls, but the shouldn't the guys with the physical ability and supposed leaders not be held to a higher standard?

Matthews needs to be held to a stricter game to game standard and if he wants the "C" one day should internalize those things and start setting the bar. We're not getting enough out of him when it matters.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Are you aware that the more you spin the less sense you make?

Not really sure what you're not understanding about this. Term matters. The contract we signed was better than a 10.55m x 5 year contract would have been.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Not really sure what you're not understanding about this. Term matters. The contract we signed was better than a 10.55m x 5 year contract would have been.

Giving a longer term is supposed to mean a lower AAV.

Just more proof that Dubas really messed it up.

You're spinning so badly you just proved he's even worse. Thanks.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Yes. I'm not sure how you're surprised that every single offer sheet ever given out hasn't been signed.

How would one truly know without a reliable history of offer sheets sent but never signed? Has a team ever even admitted to sending out an offer sheet that went nowhere?

I'm not. I'm suggesting that you should believe Marner explicitly confirming what happened to Marner.

Marner signed right after getting excoriated by Jeff O'Neil. Then when Marner put out a video trying to repair his public image that was poorly received, the buyout story conveniently came out. Marner claimed he didn't "ask for too many details" of any offer sheet. Is that believable from any player?

I'm assuming this is a failed attempt at a joke, but you can't offer sheet an ELC, you can't offer sheet your own player, and you can't separate bonuses into a different contract.

Nice hedge on the reply, which means in reality you took that literally. I knew you would. Thanks for coming through.

He didn't pay a premium. He paid a normal amount. And because Marner wanted to be here, they were able to get there through respectful negotiation, without Marner forcing a worse contract on us. We were able to negotiate a 6th year that prevented all 3 core RFA contracts expiring at the same time.

Seems logical that Marner wanted a 6th year so he could see what Matthews would get. Going back to what his agent said in 2019...

Ferris told First Up that Marner looked to Maple Leafs centres Auston Matthews and John Tavares as comparable contracts while he negotiated, rather than comparing himself to players around the league.

No JT this time, but it would stand to reason that Marner plans to use the recent Matthews deal as the basis for his next deal here.

 

[Superstar]

Giving a longer term is supposed to mean a lower AAV.

Just more proof that Dubas really messed it up.

You're spinning so badly you just proved he's even worse. Thanks.

We all knew Dubas caved, it was all over the news. The media and fans were furious when it was leaked that Marner turned down that lofty $10 million x 7 offer by the Leafs, and shortly after that, the deal got done. But instead of sticking to that deal, Dubas bent and raised the AAV by $0.93 million...oh baby, Marner gonna be Dougie now... ...and shortened the term by 1 year...and also gave away all the concessions, like huge July 1st signing bonuses. It's ridiculous how weak Dubas is...letting an RFA bent him over that hard.

 

[Notsince67]

I feel like it all comes down to Marner being resentful he was never treated like Auston Matthews, who was a first overall pick franchise center.

Yes, all players should play for as little as allowed under the CBA, but only in Toronto, and they should do it because the people who never had any significant money or haven't won anything of importance are telling them that money is not important, and only winning is, even though taking minimal money does not guarantee a win.

Anyone expecting to be paid schedule b bonuses as a top entry level draftee should be accused of wanting to be treated like McDavid instead of Matthews because it sounds worse for them.
Forget about who actually gets them. We are about outrageous character assassination instead of fair assessment after all.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Giving a longer term is supposed to mean a lower AAV.

Lmao, what? The argument that you're going with is that buying up more prime UFA years on a post-ELC contract lowers the AAV? That's certainly a new one.
You're either mixing up post-ELC and UFA contracts, or you're just throwing anything at the wall to avoid admitting that you were wrong about the offer sheet.
I look forward to the moment you realize that your argument would actually make the contracts spectacular.

 

[Nineteen67]

Giving a longer term is supposed to mean a lower AAV.

Just more proof that Dubas really messed it up.

You're spinning so badly you just proved he's even worse. Thanks.

Marner was at best 9.5 x 8 player when signed his last contract. Dubas said no you are not and gave him more $ and less term.

 

[Dekes For Days]

How would one truly know without a reliable history of offer sheets sent but never signed?

Well, a player is directly telling you, for one, but you appear to be claiming that he's a liar based on nothing. There have also been occasional reports, like the one that suggested Point rejected an offer sheet in the same year. How have you come to the conclusion that every offer sheet ever given out has been signed, and not signing is not a possibility?

Marner signed right after getting excoriated by Jeff O'Neil. Then when Marner put out a video trying to repair his public image that was poorly received, the buyout story conveniently came out.

Buyout? What are you even talking about? Marner signed in camp, around the time a bunch of others signed as well. It's wild that you think anybody cared about Jeff O'Neil getting hot and bothered the previous week. The reports of offer sheets had been circulating for months prior to any of that, for the record.

Marner claimed he didn't "ask for too many details" of any offer sheet. Is that believable from any player?

Yes, for a player that's not very involved in the negotiations and not interested in going the offer sheet route at that time.

Nice hedge on the reply, which means in reality you took that literally.

No, I just wanted to make sure you understood why your joke doesn't work, because if you knew, I imagine you wouldn't have attempted it.

Seems logical that Marner wanted a 6th year so he could see what Matthews would get.

Not only is it not logical, or consistent with reports at the time, but he wouldn't even need 6 years to see what Matthews would get anyway. He knew what Matthews was getting 4 years into his contract, and was guaranteed to know by 5 years in.

 

[IPS]

But yeah lets just ignore that a 10.55m x 5 offersheet is a pure figment of his imagination. Great thing to base a whole argument around. Guess we just don't have to bother providing evidence for anything nowadays when one's looking to lick Dubie's taint.

Anyone expecting to be paid schedule b bonuses as a top entry level draftee should be accused of wanting to be treated like McDavid instead of Matthews because it sounds worse for them.
Forget about who actually gets them. We are about outrageous character assassination instead of fair assessment after all.

And it was all just done completely arbitrarily by Lou?

I really think the better question to ask is why he did that when he apparently gave Matthews his without debate. Was there a rift in the relations between the two? Attitude issue by Marner? Lou just being an oldhead dumbass?

 

[Stephen]

Anyone expecting to be paid schedule b bonuses as a top entry level draftee should be accused of wanting to be treated like McDavid instead of Matthews because it sounds worse for them.
Forget about who actually gets them. We are about outrageous character assassination instead of fair assessment after all.

Sure, until you remember Darren Farris came out and made a public stink about contract negotiations right after Auston Matthews was re-signed.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/maple-leafs-have-lowballed-mitch-marner-in-contract-talks-agent-says/article_41d63270-7d45-57e3-93fc-41614501d20f.html

Which he had to walk back quickly because of optics:

Marner agent tries to walk back divisive comments following Matthews deal

Mitch Marner's agent wasn't completely honest again when attempting to walk back his comments following Auston Matthews' deal with the Maple Leafs.

ca.sports.yahoo.com

Divisive and resentful vibes have been part of Marner camp from early days.

 

[Stephen]

But yeah lets just ignore that a 10.55m x 5 offersheet is a pure figment of his imagination. Great thing to base a whole argument around. Guess we just don't have to bother providing evidence for anything nowadays when one's looking to lick Dubie's taint.


And it was all just done completely arbitrarily by Lou?

I really think the better question to ask is why he did that when he apparently gave Matthews his without debate. Was there a rift in the relations between the two? Attitude issue by Marner? Lou just being an oldhead dumbass?

It would have been fairly self explanatory that Auston Matthews was a more prestigious prospect coming into the organization and would have held more leverage. He also came from a more “unique” background having turned pro in Switzerland instead of playing junior or college hockey like a normal prospect his age.

This also ignores one more detail. If the Schedule B’s were so critical to Marner, why not just refuse to sign the ELC and stand your ground on day one?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Lmao, what? The argument that you're going with is that buying up more prime UFA years on a post-ELC contract lowers the AAV? That's certainly a new one.
You're either mixing up post-ELC and UFA contracts, or you're just throwing anything at the wall to avoid admitting that you were wrong about the offer sheet.
I look forward to the moment you realize that your argument would actually make the contracts spectacular.

I think it was your boy who mixed up post-ELC with UFA, giving UFA amounts in RFA contracts.

But you keep spinning, editing posts, avoiding questions you don't like to answer, and generally trying to defend the indefensible. Good for a laugh if nothing else.

 

[ACC1224]

Sure, until you remember Darren Farris came out and made a public stink about contract negotiations right after Auston Matthews was re-signed.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/maple-leafs-have-lowballed-mitch-marner-in-contract-talks-agent-says/article_41d63270-7d45-57e3-93fc-41614501d20f.html

Which he had to walk back quickly because of optics:

Marner agent tries to walk back divisive comments following Matthews deal

Mitch Marner's agent wasn't completely honest again when attempting to walk back his comments following Auston Matthews' deal with the Maple Leafs.

ca.sports.yahoo.com

Divisive and resentful vibes have been part of Marner camp from early days.

He should have moved on from his Agent after the last contract, be interesting to find out why he hasn’t. He’s made him a lot of money but he hasn’t done Marner any favours.

 

[Notsince67]

But yeah lets just ignore that a 10.55m x 5 offersheet is a pure figment of his imagination. Great thing to base a whole argument around. Guess we just don't have to bother providing evidence for anything nowadays when one's looking to lick Dubie's taint.


And it was all just done completely arbitrarily by Lou?

I really think the better question to ask is why he did that when he apparently gave Matthews his without debate. Was there a rift in the relations between the two? Attitude issue by Marner? Lou just being an oldhead dumbass?

I think dumbass is likely.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner was at best 9.5 x 8 player when signed his last contract. Dubas said no you are not and gave him more $ and less term.

But dekes said he gave him more money and more term, which was a bargain.

Yeah, nobody understands dekes - we just laugh.

 

[ACC1224]

It would have been fairly self explanatory that Auston Matthews was a more prestigious prospect coming into the organization and would have held more leverage. He also came from a more “unique” background having turned pro in Switzerland instead of playing junior or college hockey like a normal prospect his age.

This also ignores one more detail. If the Schedule B’s were so critical to Marner, why not just refuse to sign the ELC and stand your ground on day one?

Imagine he was just looking to be a good team member and not cause waves so early when told no one would be getting them. I know some need to hate everything about the player but you don’t see how someone would feel slighted by that?

 

[Stephen]

He should have moved on from his Agent after the last contract, be interesting to find out why he hasn’t. He’s made him a lot of money but he hasn’t done Marner any favours.

Agree wholeheartedly. If Marner wants to stay in Toronto and make it work long term I don’t think he needs all the prickly representation around him.

 

[Stephen]

Imagine he was just looking to be a good team member and not cause waves so early when told no one would be getting them. I know some need to hate everything about the player but you don’t see how someone would feel slighted by that?

If you look around the league I think you’ll find a lot of examples of teammates being paid differently and maybe unfairly due to when the contracts were signed, internal cap, other circumstances, preferential treatment. But we don’t really spend all day micro analyzing if Makar makes more than Rantanen, if Marchand should be resentful Pastrnak leapfrogged him, because their agents don’t air all the dirty laundry and play the resentment game in front of the media.

Marner is a fabulously wealthy young man. Airing all these resentments in contract negotiations out in the open just doesn’t generate sympathy.

 

[IPS]

This also ignores one more detail. If the Schedule B’s were so critical to Marner, why not just refuse to sign the ELC and stand your ground on day one?

Good question. He signed it in the middle of the summer, so maybe there was a little bit of negotiation, but clearly no sign of any conflict back then. So why have that and then all of a sudden turn the negotiations into a toxic mess on the second go-around?