Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

[Stephen]

...the majority of regular posters on this board and people who follow the league closely. Schedule A&B bonuses have been around forever, I remember having discussions on them when cap friendly was just starting to gain popularity and another site (NHL numbers?)

Outside of Leaf Land, could you say off the top of your head which Top 5-10 pick since 2015 would have received their Schedule B’s or not?

My point is this Schedule B is so specific to Marner’s gripe that he was treated differently to Auston Matthews, the first overall in 2016… but I actually have no frame of reference whether Laine, Strome, Hanifin, Puljularvi, Juolevi, Tkachuk, Makar, Patrick, Hischier, Heiskanen would have received it or not and if Marner’s the only guy drafted in the top 5 in 10 years that received this mistreatment.

 

[ACC1224]

Are individual players allowed to sell their own merchandise? I would have thought that would be a league wide no-no.

I really have no idea. I would think they would have looked into it but who knows? Long time ago now anyway.

 

[Nineteen67]

Marner never got an offer sheet.

A couple of teams reached out, probably threw some numbers at them, but I seem to remember some piling on Dreger for making it up to generating click bait.

 

[Nineteen67]

Are individual players allowed to sell their own merchandise? I would have thought that would be a league wide no-no.

Yes, as long they don’t use logos, colour schemes, or any other protected images, etc.

 

[notbias]

Should players be considered 'greedy' for wanting them included in their contracts?

Yes, all players should play for as little as allowed under the CBA, but only in Toronto, and they should do it because the people who never had any significant money or haven't won anything of importance are telling them that money is not important, and only winning is, even though taking minimal money does not guarantee a win.

 

[Racer88]

Are individual players allowed to sell their own merchandise? I would have thought that would be a league wide no-no.

Maybe he should have been focusing on actually winning something before setting up a swag trailer

 

[Racer88]

Yes, all players should play for as little as allowed under the CBA, but only in Toronto, and they should do it because the people who never had any significant money or haven't won anything of importance are telling them that money is not important, and only winning is, even though taking minimal money does not guarantee a win.

Ok so you and ACC have convinced me that Marner is not greedy. So we are now back to Dubas being the stupidest GM to ever work in the league for giving in to Marners demands and building the core structure that he did. Works for me, I will take that as a win. lol

 

[Gallagbi]

Outside of Leaf Land, could you say off the top of your head which Top 5-10 pick since 2015 would have received their Schedule B’s or not?

My point is this Schedule B is so specific to Marner’s gripe that he was treated differently to Auston Matthews, the first overall in 2016… but I actually have no frame of reference whether Laine, Strome, Hanifin, Puljularvi, Juolevi, Tkachuk, Makar, Patrick, Hischier, Heiskanen would have received it or not and if Marner’s the only guy drafted in the top 5 in 10 years that received this mistreatment.

Usually people get frustrated when you lie to them. Not sure why this is shocking news to you. You could argue he didn't deserve it based on previous standards for other top 5 picks, but you'd have to know the answer to that question of strome/etc. I haven't memorized those, but am familiar with what a schedule B bonus is. Many are.

Should players be considered 'greedy' for wanting them included in their contracts?

Maybe. It's low risk for the team, I expect the issue was Lou went from "we don't offer them" dating back to his NJ days with Larsson to giving them to Matthews. He dealt with it through policy/absolutes and had to walk it back.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Outside of Leaf Land, could you say off the top of your head which Top 5-10 pick since 2015 would have received their Schedule B’s or not?
My point is this Schedule B is so specific to Marner’s gripe that he was treated differently to Auston Matthews, the first overall in 2016… but I actually have no frame of reference whether Laine, Strome, Hanifin, Puljularvi, Juolevi, Tkachuk, Makar, Patrick, Hischier, Heiskanen would have received it or not and if Marner’s the only guy drafted in the top 5 in 10 years that received this mistreatment.

Every top 4 pick since 2015 has received B bonuses except Marner, who was better than most of them. Marner's justified gripe was that he was treated differently than everybody, and the established standard at the time. Lou lying to him and then giving it to Matthews is just an extra kick in the teeth.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Putting aside your overvaluing of four late 1sts compared to the career of one of the best young players in the cap era, a four 1st amount was not necessary to create a worse contract and situation for us. 10.55m x 5 could have been forced by Marner and would not have hit the threshold for that compensation, and as we moved into the season, there would have been additional issues when it came to both first year cap hit and LTIR ACSL.

Putting aside your undervaluing of four 1sts (and why would they necessarily be late?), and you usual overvaluing of Marner, as I said if an offer of 10.55 was rejected because he wanted to play here, why did Dubas pay a premium instead of getting a home town discount?

I'm sure you'll try your usual spins and distortions, but it's a simple case of Dubas made a mistake any way you look at it.

 

[IPS]

So regarding any top 5-10 picks, can anyone at all name any off the top of your head that received Schedule B bonuses? What about Marner's comparable, was there any controversy like this with them?

I'm not rejecting the fact that it couldn't have played a part in Marner being more "aggressive" in the next round of negotiations, I'm just genuinely curious how much this effects future negotiations in this regard.

 

[Stephen]

Usually people get frustrated when you lie to them. Not sure why this is shocking news to you. You could argue he didn't deserve it based on previous standards for other top 5 picks, but you'd have to know the answer to that question of strome/etc. I haven't memorized those, but am familiar with what a schedule B bonus is. Many are.


Maybe. It's low risk for the team, I expect the issue was Lou went from "we don't offer them" dating back to his NJ days with Larsson to giving them to Matthews. He dealt with it through policy/absolutes and had to walk it back.

So I’m doing a little bit of digging here.

Schedule B bonuses apparently are worth a maximum of $2 million drafted before 2022 and is paid out in full if a player hits top 10 in scoring, goals, assists, points or PPG, wins a major award or is a 1st or 2nd all-star.

Entry Level Performance Bonuses | Puckpedia

Entry Level Contracts are eligible for Performance Bonuses. There are two categories of Performance Bonuses: "A" Level Bonuses "A" Bonuses are worth $212,500 each, to a maximum of $850,000 (maximum 4 achieved). For players signed starting in 2022, "A" bonuses are worth $250,000 each, to a...

puckpedia.com

Marner was 4th in assists in 2018-19.

So the entire justification for the hard negotiations was over $2 million, plus the principle of Lou, etc. I think we all have our opinions on this and this won’t change a thing.

 

[notbias]

Ok so you and ACC have convinced me that Marner is not greedy. So we are now back to Dubas being the stupidest GM to ever work in the league for giving in to Marners demands and building the core structure that he did. Works for me, I will take that as a win. lol

We employed the guy who gave Huberdeau his contract, Duabs isn't even the stupidest GM of the Leafs in the last 3 years.

You can still think Marner is greedy or that he is delusional about his worth, I just think it is weird to ask players to take less than they think they are worth.

I do wish everyone on the Leafs took league minimum on their contracts though, I just don't expect them to.

Also, the one guy who actually took $2 million less per year is one of the most hated Leafs...

 

[Dekes For Days]

if an offer of 10.55 was rejected because he wanted to play here, why did Dubas pay a premium instead of getting a home town discount?

He didn't pay a premium. He paid a normal amount. And because Marner wanted to be here, they were able to get there through respectful negotiation, without Marner forcing a worse contract on us. We were able to negotiate a 6th year that prevented all 3 core RFA contracts expiring at the same time.

 

[egd27]

Every top 4 pick since 2015 has received B bonuses except Marner, who was better than most of them. Marner's justified gripe was that he was treated differently than everybody, and the established standard at the time. Lou lying to him and then giving it to Matthews is just an extra kick in the teeth.

If someone wanted to confirm this statement, where would one look ?

 

[Gallagbi]

I think we all have our opinions on this and this won’t change a thing.

You're right, it does seem like most are set on their position, even if they weren't overly familiar with the situation, issues or reasoning.

 

[Stephen]

I don’t think there’s going to be any new exculpatory evidence in combing over the history of Marner that will somehow win hearts and minds to Marner’s corner.

The only place to do that is on the ice in the off chance something fresh and new and good happens to this team in the playoffs.

 

[Stephen]

If someone wanted to confirm this statement, where would one look ?

I would ask Dekes to provide a list and some kind of online reference. Why do someone else’s homework?

 

[Gallagbi]

If someone wanted to confirm this statement, where would one look ?

Cap sites. Puckpedia is where I've been going to mostly in Capfriendly's absence, but there could be better.

Generally it'll show the bonus amounts, like you see with Strome here

Dylan Strome Contract, Cap Hit, Salary and Stats | Puckpedia

See the latest contract, injury news, and transactions for Dylan Strome including cap hit, AAV, salary, signing bonus, clauses, and agent on PuckPedia.

puckpedia.com

 

[Stephen]

You're right, it does seem like most are set on their position, even if they weren't overly familiar with the situation, issues or reasoning.

Let’s put it another way. Do you know off the top of your head if Easton Cowan or Matthew Knies has a schedule B bonus? Or how about recent Top 5 picks in the league like Leo Carlsson or Adam Fantilli or Shane Wright?

My point is if you weren’t invested in the notion that Player X got screwed, you wouldn’t care about this level of detail. And bringing it to light does not win hearts and minds. Marner’s going to make $125 million in his career. Losing out on $2 million in 2019 isn’t the most relatable gripe.

 

[notbias]

If someone wanted to confirm this statement, where would one look ?

PuckPedia

I'll just do 4th overall picks because their draft page isn't working and it's too much work for the minimal curiosity.

2024 - Not Signed
2023 - Yes (Will Smith)
2022 - Yes (Shane Wright)
2021 - Yes (Luke Hughes)
2020 - Yes (Lucas Raymond)
2019 - Yes (Bowen Byram)
2018 - Yes (Brady Tkachuk)
2017 - Yes (Cale Makar)
2016 - Yes (Jesse Poolparty)
2015 - No

Some are not max bonuses, guessing that can be negotiated (Hughes is the lowest I think).

 

[Captain Crunch]

Ok so you and ACC have convinced me that Marner is not greedy. So we are now back to Dubas being the stupidest GM to ever work in the league for giving in to Marners demands and building the core structure that he did. Works for me, I will take that as a win. lol

I still believe Shanahan was the main culprit behind the contracts given out to the core and for not trading any of them.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If someone wanted to confirm this statement, where would one look ?

I had to go and look up every contract on puckpedia separately. You're welcome to do it too if you'd like.

I would ask Dekes to provide a list and some kind of online reference. Why do someone else’s homework?

I literally just did your homework, for the record.

 

[Gallagbi]

Let’s put it another way. Do you know off the top of your head if Easton Cowan or Matthew Knies has a schedule B bonus? Or how about recent Top 5 picks in the league like Leo Carlsson or Adam Fantilli or Shane Wright?

My point is if you weren’t invested in the notion that Player X got screwed, you wouldn’t care about this level of detail. And bringing it to light does not win hearts and minds. Marner’s going to make $125 million in his career. Losing out on $2 million in 2019 isn’t the most relatable gripe.

It seems like you're missing the point and projecting your own bias in the situation.

I've said that performance bonuses as far as schedule A&B were known on a fundamental level by many, it's also well reported how Lou handled these situations not just with Marner but with Adam Larsson in NJ then his (debatable forced change of heart) with Matthews. When Lou is a guy who stands on his morale high ground, it's tough to immediately backtrack on your position a year later. That would be understandably frustrating as the player who took less.

You could argue that shouldn't have influenced his RFA negotiations (I would say it shouldn't have), but it doesn't change the fact people knew about the bonuses prior and that it was news at the time when other similar level players were getting both bonus categories.

It seems reasonable to say that the Marner contracts have been mishandled by all parties. Lou set a precedence he couldn't uphold for other picks, Marner used it as leverage and asked for a contract that has added additional pressure he's struggled to handle. Dubas simply signed on for too much, he had too much faith in Marners abilities.

Typically the big bonuses (schedule B) are for higher picks btw, so you won't see many on later first and beyond round picks. I expect Cowen doesn't have one, nor does Knies (we'd have heard about Knies given our cap situation btw). Carlsson likely does as do most recent top end picks. There was a weird, short term downturn in bonus contracts for top picks around the cap freeze periods after COVID, I believe they've bounced back now to more common 2+ million range for top 5 guys. We also used to see it on highly sought after undrafted NCAA players like Bozak who qualified for entry level deals

I'm getting further away from the info as we pick less and less (and I get older with less time on my hands), so check the work if you think it's wrong.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Leafs chose to build around a selfish loser.