Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

francis246

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Nov 16, 2007
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I feel like it all comes down to Marner being resentful he was never treated like Auston Matthews, who was a first overall pick franchise center.

Which is the fault of Lou. There should have been a way to bridge that gap and make both players feel equally important. Kane was the first overall pick, Toews went 3rd the year before but both were viewed by the organization equally. One wasn’t more important than the other. Same with Crosby and Malkin, same with Doughty and Kopitar.

That should have been a priority for the organization out the gate.
 
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Dekes For Days

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Which is the fault of Lou. There should have been a way to bridge that gap and make both players feel equally important. Kane was the first overall pick, Toews went 3rd the year before but both were viewed by the organization equally. One wasn’t more important than the other. Same with Crosby and Malkin, same with Doughty and Kopitar.
That should have been a priority for the organization out the gate.
Especially considering that 2015 was one of the better draft years in decades, and the entire top-4 that year was like your average 1st overall pick.
 
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ACC1224

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Which is the fault of Lou. There should have been a way to bridge that gap and make both players feel equally important. Kane was the first overall pick, Toews went 3rd the year before but both were viewed by the organization equally. One wasn’t more important than the other. Same with Crosby and Malkin, same with Doughty and Kopitar.

That should have been a priority for the organization out the gate.
Is Matthews considered selfish for accepting the bonus that weren't made available to his teammate?
 
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egd27

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Which is the fault of Lou. There should have been a way to bridge that gap and make both players feel equally important. Kane was the first overall pick, Toews went 3rd the year before but both were viewed by the organization equally. One wasn’t more important than the other. Same with Crosby and Malkin, same with Doughty and Kopitar.

That should have been a priority for the organization out the gate.
Had Matthews been drafted when Marner signed his ELC?
 

francis246

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Outside of Leaf Land, could you say off the top of your head which Top 5-10 pick since 2015 would have received their Schedule B’s or not?

My point is this Schedule B is so specific to Marner’s gripe that he was treated differently to Auston Matthews, the first overall in 2016… but I actually have no frame of reference whether Laine, Strome, Hanifin, Puljularvi, Juolevi, Tkachuk, Makar, Patrick, Hischier, Heiskanen would have received it or not and if Marner’s the only guy drafted in the top 5 in 10 years that received this mistreatment.

Usually Schedule B bonuses go to top 5 picks who have a legit chance of hitting them. Every top 4 I believe since 2015 has received them except Marner. Even Dylan Strome got his. A lot of people that follow the league closely knew this was a big issue at the time because Lou never gave them out. But he went back on his word and gave Matthews one. So yeah I’d say Marner has a right to be pissed off. Especially when you see your friends getting an AAV of 2.8 and yours is a little north of 1 million.
 

francis246

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Had Matthews been drafted when Marner signed his ELC?

Nope he wasn’t, but the point is I don’t think Marner would have cared after the fact if Lou just stuck to his word. Lou said no one is getting schedule B bonuses and then turns around and gives Matthews one. Can you blame him for being pissed off about that?

It’s tricky but I think Lou messed up, he either should have just gave Marner the schedule B bonuses the year before or just flat out said no to Matthews to keep things consistent. As I’ve said before I don’t know why he didn’t just give it to Marner. I get the worry of cap overages but we were rebuilding anyways!
 
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hotpaws

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I feel like it all comes down to Marner being resentful he was never treated like Auston Matthews, who was a first overall pick franchise center.
I don't think resentful is the word i'd use but i do agree he wants wants to be treated like AM or at least he wanted to be treated like AM at that time . He was tiny growing up , probably didn't get much respect about the potential of being a pro because of his size and it probably made him have a chip on his shoulder . He probably viewed himself and AM like our version of Kane and Toews and saw how easily AM's contract went and i can't blame him for wanting the same type of overpayment .

no idea how he feels now . probably similar so we'll see how it goes and if he decides to leave and hits the open market i could see a fair number of teams lining up to give him 11m plus on a max term
 
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Stephen

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It seems like you're missing the point and projecting your own bias in the situation.

I've said that performance bonuses as far as schedule A&B were known on a fundamental level by many, it's also well reported how Lou handled these situations not just with Marner but with Adam Larsson in NJ then his (debatable forced change of heart) with Matthews. When Lou is a guy who stands on his morale high ground, it's tough to immediately backtrack on your position a year later. That would be understandably frustrating as the player who took less.

You could argue that shouldn't have influenced his RFA negotiations (I would say it shouldn't have), but it doesn't change the fact people knew about the bonuses prior and that it was news at the time when other similar level players were getting both bonus categories.

It seems reasonable to say that the Marner contracts have been mishandled by all parties. Lou set a precedence he couldn't uphold for other picks, Marner used it as leverage and asked for a contract that has added additional pressure he's struggled to handle. Dubas simply signed on for too much, he had too much faith in Marners abilities.

Typically the big bonuses (schedule B) are for higher picks btw, so you won't see many on later first and beyond round picks. I expect Cowen doesn't have one, nor does Knies (we'd have heard about Knies given our cap situation btw). Carlsson likely does as do most recent top end picks. There was a weird, short term downturn in bonus contracts for top picks around the cap freeze periods after COVID, I believe they've bounced back now to more common 2+ million range for top 5 guys. We also used to see it on highly sought after undrafted NCAA players like Bozak who qualified for entry level deals

I'm getting further away from the info as we pick less and less (and I get older with less time on my hands), so check the work if you think it's wrong.

Good level of detail and research over lunch break to differentiate between Top 5 and first rounders and how bonuses are different as you go down the draft board.

At the end of the day I just want to know our key Leaf guys are locked in, committed to the cause and whatever they are paid is just all baked in. I just don’t think we need to be conscious of all this Dan Ferris dirty laundry and negotiation by recrimination.

We can probably point the finger at a bad culture problem in Toronto with a certain level of entitlement baked into everything. Marner needs to be treated like Matthews. Nylander needs to be paid like Marner. Sandin is superior to Liljegren. Robertson won’t stand for X treatment.
 

Stephen

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I don't think resentful is the word i'd use but i do agree he wants wants to be treated like AM or at least he wanted to be treated like AM at that time . He was tiny growing up , probably didn't get much respect about the potential of being a pro because of his size and it probably made him have a chip on his shoulder . He probably viewed himself and AM like our version of Kane and Toews and saw how easily AM's contract went and i can't blame him for wanting the same type of overpayment .

no idea how he feels now . probably similar so we'll see how it goes and if he decides to leave and hits the open market i could see a fair number of teams lining up to give him 11m plus on a max term

Auston Matthews has the cool customer, savvy businessman, franchise player, know how to play the boardroom game and game the system type aura to him and Toronto was always too happy to just concede, give him the world as the golden child. Marner didn’t have the same kind of prospect clout entering the league and when he had that big 2019 season surpassing Matthews he probably felt like he was owed better treatment.
 
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egd27

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Nope he wasn’t, but the point is I don’t think Marner would have cared after the fact if Lou just stuck to his word. Lou said no one is getting schedule B bonuses and then turns around and gives Matthews one. Can you blame him for being pissed off about that?

Ok.

Couldn't recall if he was pissed off immediately or retroactively.
 

egd27

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Wasn't Lou (and the whole organization) focused on tanking for a pick like Matthews when Marner signed?
Seemed like it. Wonder if Lou realized that Shanahan would force him to give Matthews the Sched B's before they even knew they'd win the lottery ?
 

Menzinger

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Usually Schedule B bonuses go to top 5 picks who have a legit chance of hitting them. Every top 4 I believe since 2015 has received them except Marner. Even Dylan Strome got his. A lot of people that follow the league closely knew this was a big issue at the time because Lou never gave them out. But he went back on his word and gave Matthews one. So yeah I’d say Marner has a right to be pissed off. Especially when you see your friends getting an AAV of 2.8 and yours is a little north of 1 million.

I'm pretty sure someone from the Toronto media group straight up asked Lou at one of the post Matthews draft press conferences about the bonuses. It WAS a known issue with Lou, hardly a hidden secret.

Edit: here's an article from soon after that discussed things a bit.

 
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Gabriel426

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Bonuses or what not.
Can’t blame the players for asking whatever the amount they did. But it doesn’t mean the team needed to say Yes.
Dubas agreed to the Big 4 Contracts. As he believed and betted on them to win. He betted on the wrong horses and we/fans are still paying for it.
If the Leafs had won a Cup over the past 6 yrs(since JT), none of us will be saying he is overpaid, bonuses…..bc their contracts are all worth it as Leafs won a Cup.
The fact we are saying they are greedy, Dubas sucks, or whoever is crap is the results of failure on the team in the playoffs. ONE series win in 6 yrs is unacceptable.
We can defer the problem of depth, goalies…but did our betas chokers perform? Like did any one of them ended up being the best player in any series?
 
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notDatsyuk

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He didn't pay a premium. He paid a normal amount. And because Marner wanted to be here, they were able to get there through respectful negotiation, without Marner forcing a worse contract on us. We were able to negotiate a 6th year that prevented all 3 core RFA contracts expiring at the same time.
So $10.9M is less than $10.55M?

I was right - even you couldn't spin that to make sense! :laugh:
 
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notDatsyuk

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We employed the guy who gave Huberdeau his contract, Duabs isn't even the stupidest GM of the Leafs in the last 3 years.

You can still think Marner is greedy or that he is delusional about his worth, I just think it is weird to ask players to take less than they think they are worth.
So if Alex Nylander thinks he's worth $12M per season, you don't think Tre should ask him to take less?
 
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ACC1224

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But 10.9M is in Canada, so it must mean it is 10.9mil Canadian dollars while 10.55mil is in US and that means it is 10.55mil US, lol
All players are paid in US dollars but obviously taxed at different rates
 

notbias

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So if Alex Nylander thinks he's worth $12M per season, you don't think Tre should ask him to take less?

You take things way too literally, I was clearly not referring to Treliving in this scenario.

I think the people negotiating should try to get the best deal. I also think the average hockey fan saying certain payers should take less is stupid.
 

notDatsyuk

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You take things way too literally, I was clearly not referring to Treliving in this scenario.

I think the people negotiating should try to get the best deal. I also think the average hockey fan saying certain payers should take less is stupid.
So you think Dubas was right to pay Marner what Marner thought he was worth, but Tre would be wrong to pay Alex what Alex thinks he's worth?

You made that curious statement, I was just wondering if you meant it.
 

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