Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

[Notsince67]

Yeah sure.

Where there's smoke there's fire. So not only was it Babcock "messing" with Marner but Lou also saw something that made him withhold signing bonuses.

Me honestly thinks they saw something off with this kid's character since day 1.

His character is fine. Better than fine.

 

[francis246]

Lou apparently never handed out the bonuses he withheld from Marner while in Jersey. He had to give them to Matthews because Matthews was a different level prospect as a slam dunk first overall.

Honestly, who even knew about schedule B bonuses until the Marner’s came along and made a stink over them.

Prior to Marner not getting it there really wasn’t a top 5 pick who didn’t get it. New Jersey wasn’t drafting in the top 5 which made sense why he wasn’t giving it to them. But it was unusual for a top 5 pick not to get Schedule B bonuses because they usually hit it if they make NHL Rookie Team/NHL All Star team ect.

 

[hotpaws]

enough with this bonus bs , the only time he would have hit it is in his 3rd year and MM's agent only brought it up as justification for holding out for every last penny , it had nothing to do with MM being pissed about not getting them

it's funny reading how mean Lou should have caved when we all know how Dubas being bent over in contracts crippled this team

 

[Dekes For Days]

Honestly, who even knew about schedule B bonuses until the Marner’s came along and made a stink over them.

People didn't really think about them, because outside of Lou selectively making a stink over them for no reason, they were just a standard thing that prospects like Marner got.

 

[Menzinger]

It’s crazy to me and I agree it was a dumb hill to die on because Marner probably doesn’t even hit the schedule B bonuses during his ELC. So any cap overages Lou was worried about was a non factor.

It's also surprising the league allowed it to happen. A dumb hill to die on aside (and it WAS dumb) it seems a fairly clear violation of the spirit of the cba

 

[francis246]

enough with this bonus bs , the only time he would have hit it is in his 3rd year and MM's agent only brought it up as justification for holding out for every last penny , it had nothing to do with MM being pissed about not getting them

it's funny reading how mean Lou should have caved when we all know how Dubas being bent over in contracts crippled this team

That’s whole point Hotpaws. At the end of the day it was a stupid thing to not give Marner anyways. In hindsight it wasn’t worth him feeling slighted. You give him the Schedule B bonuses. He doesn’t hit it until year 3. He’s probably a little less hostile going into the post ELC contract negotiations and you don’t have a lot of cap overages anyways. A dumb hill to die on really for Lou.

 

[LeafEgo]

That’s whole point Hotpaws. At the end of the day it was a stupid thing to not give Marner anyways. In hindsight it wasn’t worth him feeling slighted. You give him the Schedule B bonuses. He doesn’t hit it until year 3. He’s probably a little less hostile going into the post ELC contract negotiations and you don’t have a lot of cap overages anyways. A dumb hill to die on really for Lou.

Understand the hostility but did he have to go full Homelander on us? Mercy us with the Rantenen contract? Poor Dubie is publishing books over those negotiations to protect his career.

 

[francis246]

Understand the hostility but did he have to go full Homelander on us? Mercy us with the Rantenen contract? Poor Dubie is publishing books over those negotiations to protect his career.

LOL, we can thank Babcock for that extra sauce. I think it’s a combination of things but like I said I think from 2016-2019, the organization was a mess clearly behind the scenes.

It's also surprising the league allowed it to happen. A dumb hill to die on aside (and it WAS dumb) it seems a fairly clear violation of the spirit of the cba

Lou I think has a lot of pull and I’m sure Marner at the end of the day just wanted his ELC signed.

 

[Racer88]

enough with this bonus bs , the only time he would have hit it is in his 3rd year and MM's agent only brought it up as justification for holding out for every last penny , it had nothing to do with MM being pissed about not getting them

it's funny reading how mean Lou should have caved when we all know how Dubas being bent over in contracts crippled this team

This is so true but it makes people feel good when they have an excuse for Marners greed.

 

[socko]

This is so true but it makes people feel good when they have an excuse for Marners greed.

Marner's greed and Dubas's amazing incompetence. It was quite a combination. Rest of the league was laughing.

 

[francis246]

This is so true but it makes people feel good when they have an excuse for Marners greed.

What do you have to say for Matthews holding out on signing an ELC for the same thing? Marner at least signed the ELC without the bonuses. Matthews literally refused to sign without it.

 

[Racer88]

What do you have to say for Matthews holding out on signing an ELC for the same thing? Marner at least signed the ELC without the bonuses. Matthews literally refused to sign without it.

I think he is greedy as well but at least he is a bonified scoring machine and a centre

 

[Nineteen67]

What resume? No one gives a shit about that game that matters in hockey. You think when it’s time for the HOF for Matthews they are going to say 5 rockets and one game he lost to an EBUG who drives a Zamboni? It’s just a stupid notion. Its not even going to be in the conversation. The game literally means nothing.

The core’s resume. It’s in their history whether you like it or not. Should we forget that Easter game, all the games 7, the loss to TTOE….?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Say they were real, what was the real number?

Aho got $8.5 x 5 on an offersheet. What realistically was Marner looking at on an offersheet?

As someone mentioned earlier, a complete nothing burger non-threat.

An offer sheet of $8.6M would mean compensation of two 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd. The amount Dubas signed him for would have meant compensation of four 1sts.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner didn't sign it because he wanted to be a Leaf, and they were in respectful negotiations. It doesn't say anything about the specifics of the offer, or what Marner would have done had negotiations broken down. Offer sheets tend not to be discounted contracts, for obvious reasons.

If the offer was less than $10.9 and Marner didn't sign it because he wanted to stay here, Dubas made a mistake by paying that much.

If the offer was $10.9 or more, Dubas made a mistake by not telling Marner to sign it, and take the four 1sts.

 

[keonsbitterness]

If you don't believe the person it actually happened to publicly broadcasting it to the world, especially after there is no longer any negotiation benefit, and they explicitly say that the team directly told Dubas themselves, then I don't know who you would believe.

You seem to be mixing up signed offer sheets and received offer sheets. There have been more than five received offer sheets since the lockout.
And it shouldn't exactly be surprising that some of the best young players in the entire cap era were offer sheet targets.

A received offer sheet? Surely there must be some sort of an NHL and/or agent clearinghouse that keeps track of these official sounding documents involving potential NHL contracts. Is there a website or blog listing these received offer sheets? Must be hundreds.

Interesting that you're asking me to believe Ferris considering what he admitted in a 2019 TSN article:

Ferris told First Up that Marner looked to Maple Leafs centres Auston Matthews and John Tavares as comparable contracts while he negotiated, rather than comparing himself to players around the league.

You've been adamant forever that Marner NEVER used JT as a comparable. If you don't believe Marner's agent, then I don't know who you would believe.

Just because you don't like the information doesn't make it false.

Unfortunately, all we have to go off of is rumours from multiple league sources and someone who received the offers, I think that is more credible than faceless losers on this board not liking the information so they keep saying it must be fake.

Also, unlikely does not mean something is untrue, it is stupid to think that.

The information sounding fictitious makes it sound false to me, not my affection or lack thereof for it.

Something unlikely to be true means it's, if not 100%, then likely not true. It would be stupid to think otherwise.

and had money stolen from him by his previous GM

Perhaps Lou sent Marner a bonus offer sheet but Marner never signed it, in which case you would be mixing up signed offer sheets and received offer sheets.

 

[hotpaws]

That’s whole point Hotpaws. At the end of the day it was a stupid thing to not give Marner anyways. In hindsight it wasn’t worth him feeling slighted. You give him the Schedule B bonuses. He doesn’t hit it until year 3. He’s probably a little less hostile going into the post ELC contract negotiations and you don’t have a lot of cap overages anyways. A dumb hill to die on really for Lou.

the stupid thing was to low ball Marner according to his agent and not negotiate off the 8.5m x 8 yrs which was his original ask

Rantanen didn't get his B bonuses , waited until Marner re-set the bar , held out until the end of Sept trying to match what Marner got but Sakic isn't a weak bitch and didn't cave so Ranta signed for 1.5m less .

this isn't a complicated issue

- Marner led the team in scoring
- Marner is much better defensively than Tavares
- Marner used internal comparables to base his ask on

there's really nothing else , not the bonuses , not Babs being a meanie , it just comes down to Marner wanting to be treated the same as his Leafs internal comps

 

[Arzak]

His character is fine. Better than fine.

Can't even imagine he could stop crying ?

the stupid thing was to low ball Marner according to his agent and not negotiate off the 8.5m x 8 yrs which was his original ask

Rantanen didn't get his B bonuses , waited until Marner re-set the bar , held out until the end of Sept trying to match what Marner got but Sakic isn't a weak bitch and didn't cave so Ranta signed for 1.5m less .

this isn't a complicated issue

- Marner led the team in scoring
- Marner is much better defensively than Tavares
- Marner used internal comparables to base his ask on

there's really nothing else , not the bonuses , not Babs being a meanie , it just comes down to Marner wanting to be treated the same as his Leafs internal comps

Are internal comparables real again? Cool, the two biggest deniers like you comment, so it has to be true.

 

[hotpaws]

Are internal comparables real again? Cool, the two biggest deniers like you comment, so it has to be true.

I have no idea wtf your talking about

 

[Dekes For Days]

If the offer was less than $10.9 and Marner didn't sign it because he wanted to stay here, Dubas made a mistake by paying that much.
If the offer was $10.9 or more, Dubas made a mistake by not telling Marner to sign it, and take the four 1sts.

Putting aside your overvaluing of four late 1sts compared to the career of one of the best young players in the cap era, a four 1st amount was not necessary to create a worse contract and situation for us. 10.55m x 5 could have been forced by Marner and would not have hit the threshold for that compensation, and as we moved into the season, there would have been additional issues when it came to both first year cap hit and LTIR ACSL.

A received offer sheet?

Yes. I'm not sure how you're surprised that every single offer sheet ever given out hasn't been signed.

Interesting that you're asking me to believe Ferris

I'm not. I'm suggesting that you should believe Marner explicitly confirming what happened to Marner.

Perhaps Lou sent Marner a bonus offer sheet but Marner never signed it, in which case you would be mixing up signed offer sheets and received offer sheets.

I'm assuming this is a failed attempt at a joke, but you can't offer sheet an ELC, you can't offer sheet your own player, and you can't separate bonuses into a different contract.

 

[egd27]

Marner wasn't given normal bonuses on his ELC as part of Lou's weird and petty power trip, and then after lying to Marner, he turned around and gave them to Matthews.

I see.

It would seem you have a different definition of "stolen"

Stolen isn’t the word I would use, but Marner lost out on a potential 2 million and it was reported that was a part of the reason he went so hard in the post ELC contracts

No, because it is not the correct word to use.

 

[Gallagbi]

Honestly, who even knew about schedule B bonuses until the Marner’s came along and made a stink over them.

...the majority of regular posters on this board and people who follow the league closely. Schedule A&B bonuses have been around forever, I remember having discussions on them when cap friendly was just starting to gain popularity and another site (NHL numbers?)

 

[ACC1224]

...the majority of regular posters on this board and people who follow the league closely. Schedule A&B bonuses have been around forever, I remember having discussions on them when cap friendly was just starting to gain popularity and another site (NHL numbers?)

Should players be considered 'greedy' for wanting them included in their contracts?

 

[Stephen]

the stupid thing was to low ball Marner according to his agent and not negotiate off the 8.5m x 8 yrs which was his original ask

Rantanen didn't get his B bonuses , waited until Marner re-set the bar , held out until the end of Sept trying to match what Marner got but Sakic isn't a weak bitch and didn't cave so Ranta signed for 1.5m less .

this isn't a complicated issue

- Marner led the team in scoring
- Marner is much better defensively than Tavares
- Marner used internal comparables to base his ask on

there's really nothing else , not the bonuses , not Babs being a meanie , it just comes down to Marner wanting to be treated the same as his Leafs internal comps

I feel like it all comes down to Marner being resentful he was never treated like Auston Matthews, who was a first overall pick franchise center.

 

[egd27]

Lou also shut down a merchandise site that Marner had put together after being drafted which also cost him some money.

Are individual players allowed to sell their own merchandise? I would have thought that would be a league wide no-no.