What Roster changes do you make if Marner doesn't waive?

[mikeyz]

Lol. This Jesse guy might be the most out to lunch Leaf fan I have ever seen.

 

[notDatsyuk]

After 8 years "give him another go with a new system"? Keefe WAS the new system.

There is no system that can change a players DNA. At his price tag it is and always was an easy pass for me.

Keefe's system was 'whatever the players want' - hopefully Berube has a real one.

I would rather trade him, but the topic is "if we can't", and as long as we don't give him an extension I'm willing to see if Berube can make a difference.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Career, relevant range, or recency - I don't think it will make much difference.

Why don't you pick a time span.

I just what the whole of their time here for an accurate picture. I have no agenda at all. I want Marner GONE, and honestly, if I had my choice, Matthews would be gone too. But I'm not quite ready to give up on him just yet. Given his contract situation it's unrealistic and I think he, along with Nylander, have the physical skills to succeed in the playoffs if they are properly motivated.

Marner is what he is.

Lol. This Jesse guy might be the most out to lunch Leaf fan I have ever seen.

I wonder what his username here is? Guesses?

 

[Leafsfan74]

Keefe's system was 'whatever the players want' - hopefully Berube has a real one.

I would rather trade him, but the topic is "if we can't", and as long as we don't give him an extension I'm willing to see if Berube can make a difference.

Well Leafs don't have a choice if he won't agree to a trade.

Berube said he is all about team. If this is true, he knows that Marner won't be a part of this teams future. As such, he is going to have to be as firm as a coach can be with Marners ice time, situations etc.

I would cut his minutes significantly. Have him start far fewer PPs. Make it obvious that the Leafs have moved on and he will come to realize "you're leaving town one way or another, it's up to you if you want to bag the extra $20M+ you would command if we have a sign and trade for 8 years".

His agent will realize a far smaller commission cheque on his next contract if he plays out the year if I am the coach.

This is the big leagues, this isn't a grocery store clerk or garbage man getting squeezed for a .50 an hour raise. We need not be outraged if the Leafs finally put the teams interests first.

All of these players are paid very well, from a corporate profits standpoint they have earned it I suppose. I don't begrudge their position at times. However, it is absurd to be bent over a barrel as a franchise without doing their best to convince him to move on. A player should have enough self respect and self awareness to know that he has made out very well and the team wants him to return the solid.

 

[ULF_55]

Why the last 5 years? Don't cherrypick bro.

Recent trend.

I wouldn't use career for Malkin or Crosby at this point of their career.

5 years is a more current streak.

You think 8 years ago is reflective of the current players?

Some might be trending upward, while others are downward.

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P	BelakPoints
Auston Matthews	L	C	55	23	25	48	71
William Nylander	R	R	54	20	23	43	63
Mitch Marner	R	R	57	11	39	50	61
Morgan Rielly	L	D	57	11	29	40	51
John Tavares	L	C	38	12	12	24	36
Zach Hyman	R	L	32	5	8	13	18
Alex Kerfoot	L	C	30	4	9	13	17
James van Riemsdyk	L	L	13	5	2	7	12
Jake Muzzin	L	D	22	4	4	8	12
Tyler Bozak	R	C	13	4	4	8	12
Ryan O'Reilly	L	C	11	3	6	9	12
Patrick Marleau	L	C	14	4	3	7	11
Kasperi Kapanen	R	R	25	4	3	7	11
Matthew Knies	L	L	14	3	4	7	10
Jason Spezza	R	C	17	3	3	6	9
David Kampf	L	C	25	3	3	6	9
Nazem Kadri	L	C	12	2	4	6	8
Andreas Johnsson	L	L	14	2	4	6	8
Jake Gardiner	L	D	20	1	6	7	8

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Recent trend.

I wouldn't use career for Malkin or Crosby at this point of their career.

5 years is a more current streak.

You think 8 years ago is reflective of the current players?

Some might be trending upward, while others are downward.

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P	BelakPoints
Auston Matthews	L	C	55	23	25	48	71
William Nylander	R	R	54	20	23	43	63
Mitch Marner	R	R	57	11	39	50	61
Morgan Rielly	L	D	57	11	29	40	51
John Tavares	L	C	38	12	12	24	36
Zach Hyman	R	L	32	5	8	13	18
Alex Kerfoot	L	C	30	4	9	13	17
James van Riemsdyk	L	L	13	5	2	7	12
Jake Muzzin	L	D	22	4	4	8	12
Tyler Bozak	R	C	13	4	4	8	12
Ryan O'Reilly	L	C	11	3	6	9	12
Patrick Marleau	L	C	14	4	3	7	11
Kasperi Kapanen	R	R	25	4	3	7	11
Matthew Knies	L	L	14	3	4	7	10
Jason Spezza	R	C	17	3	3	6	9
David Kampf	L	C	25	3	3	6	9
Nazem Kadri	L	C	12	2	4	6	8
Andreas Johnsson	L	L	14	2	4	6	8
Jake Gardiner	L	D	20	1	6	7	8

Thank you, ULF.

 

[mikeyz]

I just what the whole of their time here for an accurate picture. I have no agenda at all. I want Marner GONE, and honestly, if I had my choice, Matthews would be gone too. But I'm not quite ready to give up on him just yet. Given his contract situation it's unrealistic and I think he, along with Nylander, have the physical skills to succeed in the playoffs if they are properly motivated.

Marner is what he is.


I wonder what his username here is? Guesses?

Lol. I don’t think it’s anyone on here.

 

[ToneDog]

Lol. This Jesse guy might be the most out to lunch Leaf fan I have ever seen.

He probably broke his piggy bank and bought a Marner jersey or two.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Well Leafs don't have a choice if he won't agree to a trade.

Berube said he is all about team. If this is true, he knows that Marner won't be a part of this teams future. As such, he is going to have to be as firm as a coach can be with Marners ice time, situations etc.

I would cut his minutes significantly. Have him start far fewer PPs. Make it obvious that the Leafs have moved on and he will come to realize "you're leaving town one way or another, it's up to you if you want to bag the extra $20M+ you would command if we have a sign and trade for 8 years".

His agent will realize a far smaller commission cheque on his next contract if he plays out the year if I am the coach.

This is the big leagues, this isn't a grocery store clerk or garbage man getting squeezed for a .50 an hour raise. We need not be outraged if the Leafs finally put the teams interests first.

All of these players are paid very well, from a corporate profits standpoint they have earned it I suppose. I don't begrudge their position at times. However, it is absurd to be bent over a barrel as a franchise without doing their best to convince him to move on. A player should have enough self respect and self awareness to know that he has made out very well and the team wants him to return the solid.

That's the whole point of the thread.

As I said, as long as we don't give him an extension, I'm OK with seeing what Berube can do with him.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Recent trend.

I wouldn't use career for Malkin or Crosby at this point of their career.

5 years is a more current streak.

You think 8 years ago is reflective of the current players?

Some might be trending upward, while others are downward.

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P	BelakPoints
Auston Matthews	L	C	55	23	25	48	71
William Nylander	R	R	54	20	23	43	63
Mitch Marner	R	R	57	11	39	50	61
Morgan Rielly	L	D	57	11	29	40	51
John Tavares	L	C	38	12	12	24	36
Zach Hyman	R	L	32	5	8	13	18
Alex Kerfoot	L	C	30	4	9	13	17
James van Riemsdyk	L	L	13	5	2	7	12
Jake Muzzin	L	D	22	4	4	8	12
Tyler Bozak	R	C	13	4	4	8	12
Ryan O'Reilly	L	C	11	3	6	9	12
Patrick Marleau	L	C	14	4	3	7	11
Kasperi Kapanen	R	R	25	4	3	7	11
Matthew Knies	L	L	14	3	4	7	10
Jason Spezza	R	C	17	3	3	6	9
David Kampf	L	C	25	3	3	6	9
Nazem Kadri	L	C	12	2	4	6	8
Andreas Johnsson	L	L	14	2	4	6	8
Jake Gardiner	L	D	20	1	6	7	8

If you look at the Belak points per game, and compare them 'career' to 'last 5', it's interesting.

Nylander 'career' 1.17 to 'last 5' 1.44 - a large improvement.
Matthews 'career' 1.29 to 'last 5' 1.37 - a small improvement.
Marner 'career' 1.07 to 'last 5' 1.05 - basically no change.
Tavares 'career' 0.95 to 'last 5' 0.94 - basically no change.
Rielly 'career' 0.89 to 'last 5' 0.92 - a small improvement.

So according to these, Nylander has improved the most from his early days, Matthews has improved, Rielly has a bit, and Marner and JT are holding about the same. Exactly what the eye test seems to say.

It may be more noticeable if you also look at the most recent two or three years.

 

[TMLife17]

What movie is that from. I was trying to recall it. A player who is having a contract dispute and wanted a trade, where as the manager said we’re not going to trade you, we’re going to play you, and if you suck, who is going to pay a guy who sucks that fat retirement contract you’re looking for…

Baseball movie.

What is a Belak point system ?

Little Big League?

 

[cyris]

Well Leafs don't have a choice if he won't agree to a trade.

Berube said he is all about team. If this is true, he knows that Marner won't be a part of this teams future. As such, he is going to have to be as firm as a coach can be with Marners ice time, situations etc.

I would cut his minutes significantly. Have him start far fewer PPs. Make it obvious that the Leafs have moved on and he will come to realize "you're leaving town one way or another, it's up to you if you want to bag the extra $20M+ you would command if we have a sign and trade for 8 years".

His agent will realize a far smaller commission cheque on his next contract if he plays out the year if I am the coach.

This is the big leagues, this isn't a grocery store clerk or garbage man getting squeezed for a .50 an hour raise. We need not be outraged if the Leafs finally put the teams interests first.

All of these players are paid very well, from a corporate profits standpoint they have earned it I suppose. I don't begrudge their position at times. However, it is absurd to be bent over a barrel as a franchise without doing their best to convince him to move on. A player should have enough self respect and self awareness to know that he has made out very well and the team wants him to return the solid.

That doesn’t work either. You can’t rely on in season pressures to get him to waive and expect any kind of return.
You have to find a team that wants him and has room for an 11m player. It also has to be one he is interested in going to. The return would be pretty minimal at that point.
You are also pretty much throwing away the season because you can’t spend any cap savings elsewhere.

Playing hardball here just isn’t realistic and isn’t going to work. You are going to have to sit him down before the season and work with him on somewhere he wants to go. If he refuses then you are pretty much suck with him for the season.

 

[saffronleaf]

i would just forfeit the season

 

[mikeyz]

He probably broke his piggy bank and bought a Marner jersey or two.

Look at that dude's Twitter TL and even that convo with Daniel.

He's a massive Marner brown noser.

 

[Leafsfan74]

That doesn’t work either. You can’t rely on in season pressures to get him to waive and expect any kind of return.
You have to find a team that wants him and has room for an 11m player. It also has to be one he is interested in going to. The return would be pretty minimal at that point.
You are also pretty much throwing away the season because you can’t spend any cap savings elsewhere.

Playing hardball here just isn’t realistic and isn’t going to work. You are going to have to sit him down before the season and work with him on somewhere he wants to go. If he refuses then you are pretty much suck with him for the season.

Well, I would take a different approach. It's not personal, it's just business. This is how his agent would have been positioning it as he squeezed the Leafs. Don't forget that Marner was going to hold out and there were rumours he wanted much more. Once this was leaked, the public turned on him. He then signed a few days later if I recall.

Of course the ideal approach would be sit down with him and explain the situation. Leafs cap structure doesn't work based on their needs as a team, Nylander and Matthews already re-upped, there is a new manager and ownership decision makers yadda yadda.

Then you explain and have his agent explain how much he is leaving on the table if he doesn't sign for eight years. If he gets injured, if he has a sub-par year etc. You then remind him that the team has to give more minutes to other players to see what they have in them etc. This will mean fewer minutes for him.

Ultimately, a mature adult would understand the situation and say "ok, I have 7 great years of earnings, they treated me well, let me play with Matthews for years which padded my stats immensely. I should just accept this and move on".

Let's assume Leafs somehow resign both Bert and Domi, or try Knies up front etc. If Marner is not on Matthews line, he probably loses out on some points due to Matthews scoring prowess. If you consider other necessary changes in his ice time etc that I would employ as coach, well, this is all about team.

This is a business. This is a team that fans follow for their lifetimes, they are never rewarded. So, take the position you want but just as you maxed out your contract as an RFA, something he wouldn't have been given with another franchise at that point; don't expect there not to be a similar response.

 

[mikeyz]

Little Big League?

That's it. Such a great baseball movie.

"COACH! PUT ME IN THERE. I CAN THROW STRIKES!!!!" ***Hits Glove***

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Last 5 years playoffs
Ordered by Belak Point System

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P	BelakPoints
William Nylander	R	R	34	17	15	32	49
Auston Matthews	L	C	35	13	22	35	48
Mitch Marner	R	R	37	6	27	33	39
Morgan Rielly	L	D	37	9	16	25	34
John Tavares	L	C	31	10	9	19	29
Alex Kerfoot	L	C	30	4	9	13	17
Ryan O'Reilly	L	C	11	3	6	9	12
Matthew Knies	L	L	14	3	4	7	10
Jake Muzzin	L	D	15	4	2	6	10
Jason Spezza	R	C	17	3	3	6	9
David Kampf	L	C	25	3	3	6	9
TJ Brodie	L	D	26	1	6	7	8
Michael Bunting	L	L	13	2	3	5	7
Zach Hyman	R	L	12	2	2	4	6
Ilya Mikheyev	L	R	19	2	2	4	6
Alex Galchenyuk	L	C	6	1	3	4	5
Tyler Bertuzzi	L	L	7	1	3	4	5
Max Domi	L	C	7	1	3	4	5

Just threw up in my mouth a little

 

[Voodoo Child]

Him and AM have both choked in the playoffs, though Matthews peaks higher and doesn’t hit the same lows. JT hasn’t been amazing but has been surprisingly clutch and Willy is good. Marner has very objectively been the biggest disappointment and you’re blind if you don’t see it.

But as much as he did choke - would have been nice of him to pop off for 2-1-3 in game 3 or 4, I also see that he’s anguished and in a bad state. He and his family are from Toronto and he’s a few inches from being a total pariah and I think his father already is one.

The security incident and boo hoo I’m a god quote are the actions of someone who is becoming unhinged and agitated and likely surrounded by enablers. This can only get worse if he and his camp make it worse.


Which sucks, but I bet conversations are already underway. There are already rumored interested teams and I bet there’s more.

Taking a new approach, changing the cap structure, giving guys a bigger shot, deep forward group etc,.

He reads the articles and browses the internet. Regular season he can help a lot of teams, especially metro teams where margin for error is tight and only two teams are top dogs as the Leafs have a seat at the table with three others.

He’s not gonna be traded for Pennies on the dollar, more like a dollar for a 50 cent piece (Larsson), a quarter (Tolvanen) and a few dimes (2024 4th, 2025 3rd). Yes, I would do that trade.

Or Necas (extended) or Pulock, Boldy, Farabee or Askarov - if they’re cool with it.

 

[mikeyz]

This f***ing fanbase man!!! Holy shit! LMFAO

 

[ULF_55]

i would just forfeit the season

So forfeit regular season on top of forfeiting post season?

 

[Lemontree]

That's it. Such a great baseball movie.

"COACH! PUT ME IN THERE. I CAN THROW STRIKES!!!!" ***Hits Glove***

"Hey Mac, what's the going rate ($) for a starting pitcher that can't get anybody out?"

"You guys keep talking about baseball being a business, start acting like it".

 

[mikeyz]

"Hey Mac, what's the going rate ($) for a starting pitcher that can't get anybody out?"

"You guys keep talking about baseball being a business, start acting like it".

Lol. Thanks man. I am doing a 12 hour shift tomorrow and I was just about to go to bed. But, now I may stay awake for a bit and watch that movie on Bflix

LMFAO

 

[arso40]

What big playoff moment has involved Marner? How many of those points have any significance in the series? You can’t just look at points.

Exactly but everyone generalizes his playoff career when you have to deep dive the numbers he started out good and never really improved add to that the later into the series the worst he performs context is everything

 

[cyris]

Well, I would take a different approach. It's not personal, it's just business. This is how his agent would have been positioning it as he squeezed the Leafs. Don't forget that Marner was going to hold out and there were rumours he wanted much more. Once this was leaked, the public turned on him. He then signed a few days later if I recall.

Of course the ideal approach would be sit down with him and explain the situation. Leafs cap structure doesn't work based on their needs as a team, Nylander and Matthews already re-upped, there is a new manager and ownership decision makers yadda yadda.

Then you explain and have his agent explain how much he is leaving on the table if he doesn't sign for eight years. If he gets injured, if he has a sub-par year etc. You then remind him that the team has to give more minutes to other players to see what they have in them etc. This will mean fewer minutes for him.

Ultimately, a mature adult would understand the situation and say "ok, I have 7 great years of earnings, they treated me well, let me play with Matthews for years which padded my stats immensely. I should just accept this and move on".

Let's assume Leafs somehow resign both Bert and Domi, or try Knies up front etc. If Marner is not on Matthews line, he probably loses out on some points due to Matthews scoring prowess. If you consider other necessary changes in his ice time etc that I would employ as coach, well, this is all about team.

This is a business. This is a team that fans follow for their lifetimes, they are never rewarded. So, take the position you want but just as you maxed out your contract as an RFA, something he wouldn't have been given with another franchise at that point; don't expect there not to be a similar response.

I agree for the most part. It is just business. I don’t really have the same burning desire to see Marner specifically traded as I do to have some kind of major change to this roster.
But if he is the one management decides need to go that’s basically the way you have to do it.
Playing him all year in the bottom 6 with no special teams time like a bunch of people are calling for is unrealistic and based on emotion not reality

 

[IPS]

There is no "fixation". Instead it's a "fiction" brought up by Team Marner and his Social Media Security contractor. For proof, see the Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, and Reilly threads, for starters.

They bend over backwards to blame everyone around Marner. I've even read Sheldon Keefe get blamed even though he gave Mitch loads of minutes and opportunity, all with the best goal scorer in the league, even during stretches where it's clear they shouldn't be on the same line.

I honestly don't know if it's attempted gaslighting or just pure delusion.