What Roster changes do you make if Marner doesn't waive?

[ULF_55]

After watching Matthews for 8 years, do you think he’ll ever lead a team to a Championship?

He doesn't have to.

The team has to win the Cup, not the individual.

Sure, we'd love for him to be Messier who won a Cup without Gretzky, who didn't win a Cup without Messier. Gretzky greatest ever or just most points ever?

Trottier versus Bossy?

Anyway, it is up to the coach to have the talent prepared to play, and special teams ready, and structure in place.

But this is a marner thread, and what to do when he doesn't waive.

To me this is more interesting than a "get out of capspace jail free card", as it should mean Berube has to meld some ELSC players into the line-up.

I hope we don't recognize the lines come October, although would anyone be surprised by:

Knies-Matthews-marner
McMann-Tavares-Nylander
Robertson-Holmberg-Jarnkrok
Dewar-Kampf-Reaves/Gregor

I'm sure there would be great disappointment in the above.

Knies-Matthews-marner
Cowan/Grebyonkin-Tavares-Nylander (Grebyonkin shoots left although called a RW)
McMann-Holmberg-Jarnkrok
Dewar-Minten-Reaves/Gregor

 

[ACC1224]

I still don't understand the fixation on Marner as in "it's all Marners fault"

It's simpler to just focus the angst on one thing then it is to look at the bigger picture.

 

[thewave]

He doesn't have to.

The team has to win the Cup, not the individual.

Sure, we'd love for him to be Messier who won a Cup without Gretzky, who didn't win a Cup without Messier. Gretzky greatest ever or just most points ever?

Trottier versus Bossy?

Anyway, it is up to the coach to have the talent prepared to play, and special teams ready, and structure in place.

But this is a marner thread, and what to do when he doesn't waive.

To me this is more interesting than a "get out of capspace jail free card", as it should mean Berube has to meld some ELSC players into the line-up.

I hope we don't recognize the lines come October, although would anyone be surprised by:

Knies-Matthews-marner
McMann-Tavares-Nylander
Robertson-Holmberg-Jarnkrok
Dewar-Kampf-Reaves/Gregor

I'm sure there would be great disappointment in the above.

Knies-Matthews-marner
Cowan/Grebyonkin-Tavares-Nylander (Grebyonkin shoots left although called a RW)
McMann-Holmberg-Jarnkrok
Dewar-Minten-Reaves/Gregor

Matthews and Nylander have shown enough chips down presence on the ice to indicate if they get the right mixture, they could win. MM and slow JT just dont give me that at all. I see big cap poor D and a lacking Tender.

 

[ToneDog]

Which of any of them is any "good" past game 82, even Nylander is below his regular seasons numbers.

Diju listen to Kypper and Bourne yesterday? Some interesting stuff concerning not just the new hire but about Bru's first interactions with players, he hasnt talked to them all yet! They went on to cover distractions (friends in dressing room, perhaps?) and jealousies that exist in the dressing room, that will be dealt with.

In my view it's a team dressing room and not a clubhouse. Bru will be laying down the law it sounds like.

I'm betting Marner is part of the problem. What team mate making 1/10 is going to go through a wall watching Mitch in the playoffs?

 

[Darcy Tucker]

I'm betting Marner is part of the problem. What team mate making 1/10 is going to go through a wall watching Mitch in the playoffs?

What about those games where he scores a shorthanded goal , has two assists and dives to block a shot in the final minute of a game? It's not all doom and gloom with Marner and he's only 27. There's a lot left in his tank to still put up a heater in the post season it's bound to happen with the right linemates and coaching strategies.

I'm more than happy to test him through a contract year with a different voice than Keefe's and see what we're really working with here. You have to think twice about trading a player of Marner's skill level because there are maybe only 25 of them in the league and there's 32 teams.

 

[ULF_55]

I still don't understand the fixation on Marner as in "it's all Marners fault"

It's just a backlash to the public persona that marner has.

He really does come across as "it's not my fault."

Even his greatest supporters acknowledge he should get lessons or shut-up.

 

[thewave]

What about those games where he scores a shorthanded goal , has two assists and dives to block a shot in the final minute of a game? It's not all doom and gloom with Marner and he's only 27. There's a lot left in his tank to still put up a heater in the post season it's bound to happen with the right linemates and coaching strategies.

I'm more than happy to test him through a contract year with a different voice than Keefe's and see what we're really working with here. You have to think twice about trading a player of Marner's skill level because there are maybe only 25 of them in the league and there's 32 teams.

This is like when Vader hoisted the Emperor into the hole to win the war isn't it. Quality Sci Fi

 

[ToneDog]

What about those games where he scores a shorthanded goal , has two assists and dives to block a shot in the final minute of a game? It's not all doom and gloom with Marner and he's only 27. There's a lot left in his tank to still put up a heater in the post season it's bound to happen with the right linemates and coaching strategies.

I'm more than happy to test him through a contract year with a different voice than Keefe's and see what we're really working with here. You have to think twice about trading a player of Marner's skill level because there are maybe only 25 of them in the league and there's 32 teams.

Where did that Marner go because we haven't seen him for over 5 years now.

Marner is a victim of timing. If Tavares was coming off the books this year, you could run it back but them what do you do when he asks for $100m. You gotta cut bait. The 3 amigos have proven that you cannot win building a team around them (they are 1 and 8 in the playoffs). They are closer to Kessels than Crosbys.

 

[Nineteen67]

He doesn't have to.

The team has to win the Cup, not the individual.

Sure, we'd love for him to be Messier who won a Cup without Gretzky, who didn't win a Cup without Messier. Gretzky greatest ever or just most points ever?

Trottier versus Bossy?

Anyway, it is up to the coach to have the talent prepared to play, and special teams ready, and structure in place.

But this is a marner thread, and what to do when he doesn't waive.

To me this is more interesting than a "get out of capspace jail free card", as it should mean Berube has to meld some ELSC players into the line-up.

I hope we don't recognize the lines come October, although would anyone be surprised by:

Knies-Matthews-marner
McMann-Tavares-Nylander
Robertson-Holmberg-Jarnkrok
Dewar-Kampf-Reaves/Gregor

I'm sure there would be great disappointment in the above.

Knies-Matthews-marner
Cowan/Grebyonkin-Tavares-Nylander (Grebyonkin shoots left although called a RW)
McMann-Holmberg-Jarnkrok
Dewar-Minten-Reaves/Gregor

Sure, but the question is do you think he’ll lead a team to a championship?

 

[ULF_55]

Which of any of them is any "good" past game 82, even Nylander is below his regular seasons numbers.

Diju listen to Kypper and Bourne yesterday? Some interesting stuff concerning not just the new hire but about Bru's first interactions with players, he hasnt talked to them all yet! They went on to cover distractions (friends in dressing room, perhaps?) and jealousies that exist in the dressing room, that will be dealt with.

In my view it's a team dressing room and not a clubhouse. Bru will be laying down the law it sounds like.

Couple years old, but scoring goes down in the post season.

NHL Scoring Trends: Regular Season vs. Playoffs - DRatings

An analysis of scoring trends between regular season and NHL playoff hockey. How much of a difference is there?

www.dratings.com

So yes post-season numbers are lower than regular-season.

Used hockeydb numbers, and since I'm not paid, I didn't triple check my numbers.

Points per game
Matthews 1.16 regular, .87 playoffs
marner 1.11 regular, .88 playoffs
Nylander .88 regular, .80 playoffs

Goals per game
Matthews .65 regular, .45 playoffs
marner .34 regular, .19 playoffs
Nylander .36 regular, .37 playoffs


These are career numbers, and of course some players get better, some players example, marner has been over PPG since his third year in regular season. Matthews over PPG 2nd. year. Nylander only the last 2 years, although was 80 in 81 3 years ago.

 

[ULF_55]

Sure, but the question is do you think he’ll lead a team to a championship?

No.

I don't think he's that type.

 

[therealkoho]

I'm betting Marner is part of the problem. What team mate making 1/10 is going to go through a wall watching Mitch in the playoffs?

Yeah of course, he just let's Bieber waltz in and out of the dressing room carte blanche even in between periods or so I've heard. Oh wait that's not Marner!

Listen to the pod, it's very illuminating.

 

[notDatsyuk]

What about those games where he scores a shorthanded goal , has two assists and dives to block a shot in the final minute of a game? It's not all doom and gloom with Marner and he's only 27. There's a lot left in his tank to still put up a heater in the post season it's bound to happen with the right linemates and coaching strategies.

I'm more than happy to test him through a contract year with a different voice than Keefe's and see what we're really working with here. You have to think twice about trading a player of Marner's skill level because there are maybe only 25 of them in the league and there's 32 teams.

That shorthanded goal was five years ago! (I'm too lazy to look up the rest.) How many of the current players (other than the big five) were even around then?

 

[Darcy Tucker]

That shorthanded goal was five years ago! (I'm too lazy to look up the rest.) How many of the current players (other than the big five) were even around then?

Yeah you have a point but I think Marner deserves a chance to show what he can do in new system and environment with Berube. If he wants to be here so bad he will find a way to evolve. It's not without possibility.

 

[Maple Leaf]

After watching Matthews for 8 years, do you think he’ll ever lead a team to a Championship?

Matthews doens't hold up to Draisaitl

 

[Fogelhund]

I still don't understand the fixation on Marner as in "it's all Marners fault"

It isn't all his fault. But...

Brendan Shanahan on whether core changes to the Maple Leafs’ roster will be considered this offseason: “There is a time for preaching patience, and there is a time when you have to examine the patterns that persist… Everything will be on the table”​

Shanahan has suggested that some players haven't moved forward, and a negative pattern persists... the speculation is that's Marner... we'll see by their actions, as to whom they believe needs to change, in order to get the Leafs moving in a winning direction.

---------------------------------------------------------------

The reality is, Marner is a team leader in points, goal differentials on ice, and a bunch more stats... But, it appears that in important games he's not there.... He's not the only one, that's for sure, but you don't trade out everybody and start new.

 

[TheScandal89]

Personally I think this is the most likely scenario. I think they will be scared to pull the trigger for fear of the Kadri trade. Also Brad didn't do too well on the Tkachuk and Gaudreau deals imo. The forward core will probably introduce 2-3 ELCs and the rest will be spent on Goaltending and defense.

D wise, we already have Rielly, McCabe, Timmins and Benoit signed I believe. With Liljegren or Niemla potentially getting the 5th spot. I'd also bring back Edmundson if we could

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I still don't understand the fixation on Marner as in "it's all Marners fault"

There is no "fixation". Instead it's a "fiction" brought up by Team Marner and his Social Media Security contractor. For proof, see the Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, and Reilly threads, for starters.

 

[MagicalRazor]

I’d take him off PP 1 no more PK make him play 3-4th line no more OT ,until he wants out of toronto

not many changes the leafs can do with all that cap tied up , it will be the following year you’ll see significant changes .

I’d try and sign zadorov or Necas
call up cade webber and see if easton cowan is ready for a shot

see if we can acquire ullmark or demko

 

[Jmo89]

I try to create cap by trading Tavares to Carolina after the bonus is paid.
Assuming this means we are keeping the core. Including Tavares.

I would move on from Jarnkrok. Kampf. Lilly to try to get 2025 picks. Then fill out the rosters

we actually have plenty of cap. I used players as an example. We can easily spend 11 on 2 top 4 D. Get a tandem goalie and get a middle 6 C for 5.5. The players are just exemplars. If you want Pesce/demelo/Tanev instead of Roy that’s fine too.

View attachment 873187

Nice lineup but I think Montour would get more. Completely agree about Jarnkrok and Kampf. They're versatile and cheap but extremely replaceable. If/when the team takes the next step they can likely find a younger version of Kampf and/or Jarnkrok easily through trade, or (preferably) they're replaced from within.

I'm probably in the minority but I'd like to see them bring back Bertuzzi and Domi if they sign for a good average. Both have expressed interest in coming back and both have proven they can play with Matthews. The two of the combined would be several million less than having only Marner with Matthews.

For that reason I'd hold off on signing a 2C and sign only one dman. Put Marner on the second line with Nylander. Let them drive their own line with whatever stopgap centre they can find. Holmberg could probably work for a season.

JT can be on the 3rd line permanently. Knies and McMann would likely do fine with him.

If they don't get JT or Marner off the books they're not going deep next year anyways. I'd rather they sign two guys who have proven chemistry with Matthews and then have money to blow in 2025 to fill out the defence and 2C.

Montour (7.5) or Roy (5.5)
Bertuzzi (5 with term)
Domi (3.5 with term)
Goalie (2-3 short-term)

Like @ToneDog said, reinvent the PP. Stop simply stacking the 5 highest paid players. Rielly sucks on the PP and Bertuzzi can take Tavares spot.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

1. Dump the dead cap at the bottom of the roster (Timmins/Reaves/Kampf/Jarnkrok)

2. Sign Pesce and trade for another RHD using Robertson/Niemela etc.

3. Sign Marchessault and Toffoli (RW depth scoring to drive bottom 6). Stamkos and Pavelski are other options.

Sign a G to be the backup and let Hildeby be the 3G.

We have the cap space to do this without trading Marner.

Knies-Matthews-Nylander
McMann-Tavares-Marner
Cowan-Holmberg-Marchessault
Steeves-Dewar-Toffoli
Grebenkin-Minten-Tverberg

Rielly-Parayko??
McCabe-Pesce
Benoit-Liljegren
Edmundson??-Mattinen

Woll
Stolarz??
Hildeby

 

[Nineteen67]

Matthews doens't hold up to Draisaitl

Draisatl is OK but he’s not a complete player. I was hoping Matthews would be more along the lines of Crosby and the leadership he displays as a superstar.

 

[NMacrules]

I think Marner will be a pred next season. Preds already traded out a lot of salary in the McDonough trade. I think something is cooking. Perhaps Saros, A prospect (or D man) and a first round pick. Marner and Lilly go to preds with Leafs eating 30% of Marners salary next season.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I think Marner will be a pred next season. Preds already traded out a lot of salary in the McDonough trade. I think something is cooking. Perhaps Saros, A prospect (or D man) and a first round pick. Marner and Lilly go to preds with Leafs eating 30% of Marners salary next season.

Now that I like, especially if we don't have to retain.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Yeah you have a point but I think Marner deserves a chance to show what he can do in new system and environment with Berube. If he wants to be here so bad he will find a way to evolve. It's not without possibility.

There's no way Marner can be on the team in June 2025 on the cusp of being a UFA without an extension. All the leverage would be his. Leafs have to decide how they plan to go forward with him soon.