What is wrong with the Jackets offense?
- Thread starter EspenK
- Start date
We only scored more than 2 goals in a game THREE times in November. And we only won ONE of those games (11/14, 4-3 over the Flyers).
I still blame our unacceptable/horrific bottom 6. And that goes back to Jarmo's unacceptable/horrific dismantling of those lines in the offseason. You are not going to score in this league with Gibbons, Cracknell, Boll, Tropp, Chaput, Tyrell, Collins, etc taking regular shifts.
I mean really, that is an expansion team worthy lineup.
I still blame our unacceptable/horrific bottom 6. And that goes back to Jarmo's unacceptable/horrific dismantling of those lines in the offseason. You are not going to score in this league with Gibbons, Cracknell, Boll, Tropp, Chaput, Tyrell, Collins, etc taking regular shifts.
I mean really, that is an expansion team worthy lineup.
Richards and his system. It worked great when we had a deep team and everyone buying in. It can't withstand missing a few guys, let alone the number of guys we are missing this year. I know most teams would struggle with the number of guys we have missed, but we still have enough talent to be a lot better than we are now.
I never liked Richards even when we were winning. I hate how he coaches games and handles lines. I was okay with it, though, because we are winning. We aren't anymore and I can't believe he is still the coach.
I never liked Richards even when we were winning. I hate how he coaches games and handles lines. I was okay with it, though, because we are winning. We aren't anymore and I can't believe he is still the coach.
EspenK
Registered User
- Sep 25, 2011
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That ragtag collection hasn't helped but Horton's absence and Dubi/Letestu being out hasn't helped that situation.
I still think one of Jarmo's biggest failures in the off-season was not adding another top 9 F in free agency. I advocated going after Iginla or Vrbata to strengthen the RW position. In retrospect it was even more important than I thought.
Even when Dubi & Letestu come back we are still going to be short a top 9 F.
Forgetting about the pp goals Joey is projecting as the top 5v5 goal scorer with 21. Can't blame it all on the bottom 6.
I still think one of Jarmo's biggest failures in the off-season was not adding another top 9 F in free agency. I advocated going after Iginla or Vrbata to strengthen the RW position. In retrospect it was even more important than I thought.
Even when Dubi & Letestu come back we are still going to be short a top 9 F.
Forgetting about the pp goals Joey is projecting as the top 5v5 goal scorer with 21. Can't blame it all on the bottom 6.
So did I. I was one of the biggest proponents of Vrbata. It was another whiff on Jarmo's part.
You can blame a lot of it on them. Go check out Cyclone's post in the Nashville GDT, they have scored a whopping ZERO 5-on-5 goals in something like 112 man games. Unacceptable.
2 things that weren't the problem:
1. Our top 9 going into the year looked something like this:
Hartnell/Joey/Foligno
Jenner/Anisimov/Skille
Calvert/Dubinsky/Atkinson
Having about one guy who isn't an established scorer in your top 9 (Skille), is totally normal. Even some of the best offences will have 1 or 2 guys in the top 9 who haven't yet scored at a scoring line pace. This was above average scoring depth, especially with Letestu still on the 4th line.
So the whole "whiffing on Vrbata" thing is not a good explanation of our problems. Obviously in retrospect we could have used him, but nobody signs a guy to a big contract in anticipation of a massive future injury crisis.
2. It's also not the fault of Hartnell/Joey/Foligno/Atkinson/Jenner. Even on 5 on 5 their scoring is at a decent rate.
The problem:
1. The biggest single factor in our offensive woes is the injury bug.
2. Our AHL fill-ins have done even worse than expected. 0 goals from many of them.
3. Some of the scorers who've come back from injury have been abysmal (I'm thinking of Arty and Calvert). They are not scoring threats right now.
4. Missing Derek Mackenzie. This is a big f-ing deal.
5. Maybe, maybe, you can say that Richards system isn't working with the players he has. I look at Hartley's work in Calgary and wonder how he can squeeze lemonade out of Josh Jooris and Sven Baertschi yet Richards can't get anything out of half his lineup. But I don't know who to blame.
1. Our top 9 going into the year looked something like this:
Hartnell/Joey/Foligno
Jenner/Anisimov/Skille
Calvert/Dubinsky/Atkinson
Having about one guy who isn't an established scorer in your top 9 (Skille), is totally normal. Even some of the best offences will have 1 or 2 guys in the top 9 who haven't yet scored at a scoring line pace. This was above average scoring depth, especially with Letestu still on the 4th line.
So the whole "whiffing on Vrbata" thing is not a good explanation of our problems. Obviously in retrospect we could have used him, but nobody signs a guy to a big contract in anticipation of a massive future injury crisis.
2. It's also not the fault of Hartnell/Joey/Foligno/Atkinson/Jenner. Even on 5 on 5 their scoring is at a decent rate.
The problem:
1. The biggest single factor in our offensive woes is the injury bug.
2. Our AHL fill-ins have done even worse than expected. 0 goals from many of them.
3. Some of the scorers who've come back from injury have been abysmal (I'm thinking of Arty and Calvert). They are not scoring threats right now.
4. Missing Derek Mackenzie. This is a big f-ing deal.
5. Maybe, maybe, you can say that Richards system isn't working with the players he has. I look at Hartley's work in Calgary and wonder how he can squeeze lemonade out of Josh Jooris and Sven Baertschi yet Richards can't get anything out of half his lineup. But I don't know who to blame.
I'd prefer to not have a waiver wire pickup in my top 6, but hey, if you say it's "totally normal", who am I to question you?
Vrbata is EXACTLY the type of second-tier free agent that this club should be targeting. We had plenty of cap space, and with advance knowledge of Horton's ailment, this should have been a no-brainer signing.
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Well I prefer all All-Stars myself, but the point is there isn't a shortage of talent by league-wide standards, prior to the injuries. Or if you want, switch Skille with Letestu to have a top 9 with all legit players by your standard. Either way it's not a problem by league-wide standards
Have a look at the top 9 lines of the Sharks, Blackhawks, Lightning, etc..
How many goals do you think Barclay Goodrow, Matt Nieto, James Sheppard, Dan Carcillo, and Brett Connolly have? Jack Skille can outscore all those guys. Those are top 9 players on those offenses.
To lure Vrbata away from the Sedins we might have needed to throw a healthy $6m at that second-tier free agent. I would have loved it, but I can understand why Jarmo didn't do it. Even without Horton we have enough scorers in our healthy lineup.
Those offenses also have a few guys like Marleau, Thornton, Stamkos, Toews, and Kane, so I'm just guessing that they have a little more firepower to offset the lesser players in the lineup...
EspenK
Registered User
- Sep 25, 2011
- 15,842
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Dr. Fire
What, me worry?
You are all forgetting one other thing. Bob has not been Bob, and CMac has been a sieve in most of the games he has played. Certainly our injuries and pathetic D play have not helped, but neither has the inability of Bob and CMac to make big timely saves.
Our lack of goal scoring is a problem, but in many games it really hasn't mattered much.
Our lack of goal scoring is a problem, but in many games it really hasn't mattered much.
Every NHL team has 2 good forward lines, its generally what happens on the 3rd and 4th line that makes the difference. That secondary scoring is what will take you past the 2-3 goals your top 2 offer. Ours is terrible, yes they were fill in's for injuries, but those fill in's are still terrible. The one thing it's told us is dont get any injuries because the depth of this team is bad. And not replacing Horton in the offseason was a bad idea
They look like a beer league team with a couple good guys on the team playing out of their league...no chemistry
They look like a beer league team with a couple good guys on the team playing out of their league...no chemistry
Certainly. Either way Jack Skille is not our problem. The guy has goals. Our problem is we have lots of guys who have zero goals. And guys we were counting on to score, like Arty and Calvert, are not playing well.
There's different levels of depth, obviously. Our secondary scoring when healthy isn't bad. Show me how many teams in the league have a guy like Mark Letestu as their 9th best scorer.
But then the depth really drops off a cliff.
Add to the injuries and the lack of fourth line production:
ONE goal from Jack Johnson. Only two from Wiz. Zero from Tyutin and Murray because they're injured. In fact, David Savard has almost as many goals (4) as the entire rest of the defense (5).
ONE goal from Jack Johnson. Only two from Wiz. Zero from Tyutin and Murray because they're injured. In fact, David Savard has almost as many goals (4) as the entire rest of the defense (5).
I came to hockey late so I don't have answers but that is what I'm seeing.
We were scoring early in the season with pretty much the same team we have had for the last couple of games. The one noticeable difference is our slow slow slow transition into and setting up an offensive threat. If we manage to get control it takes us so long to set up a scoring opportunity the other team is completely ready for it. Jenner's line consistently can get in Johansen's line, not so much, and it isn't worth discussing the bottom 2 lines.
Short version:
- We suck at getting out of our zone
- We suck at getting past pressure in the neutral zone
- We are slow at setting up any pressure
I think our success on the power play helps illustrate the problem. With less pressure entering the zone we have time to set up. Once we set up we are ok.
I don't think it's the system or the coaching at this point. Talent/skill loss from injury is a problem. The speed with which we execute is a bigger problem. We do the right things we just do them too slowly. That is mental/emotional. Too many of these guys do not believe they can outplay the other team.
We were scoring early in the season with pretty much the same team we have had for the last couple of games. The one noticeable difference is our slow slow slow transition into and setting up an offensive threat. If we manage to get control it takes us so long to set up a scoring opportunity the other team is completely ready for it. Jenner's line consistently can get in Johansen's line, not so much, and it isn't worth discussing the bottom 2 lines.
Short version:
- We suck at getting out of our zone
- We suck at getting past pressure in the neutral zone
- We are slow at setting up any pressure
I think our success on the power play helps illustrate the problem. With less pressure entering the zone we have time to set up. Once we set up we are ok.
I don't think it's the system or the coaching at this point. Talent/skill loss from injury is a problem. The speed with which we execute is a bigger problem. We do the right things we just do them too slowly. That is mental/emotional. Too many of these guys do not believe they can outplay the other team.
Jackets Fan
Registered User
Absolutely NO depth scoring. And the top guys are beginning to cool off. Not a good combination.
The cure to these offensive woes are obvious. Just draw 10 penalties a game
The cure to these offensive woes are obvious. Just draw 10 penalties a game
To go with what you're saying, consistent pressure has been lacking this season. One line will go out, set up in the offensive zone and keep it going all shift and then when they change it up it all goes out the window.
SuperGenius
For Duty & Humanity!
- Mar 18, 2008
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You can't score if you don't have the puck. Puck posession is terrible. Faceoffs, until recently, were abysmal and few battles are being won. Passing is relatively terrible, particularly the second pass out of the D-zone. Puck control is awful for most of our forwards as well.
For me, this is the key to everything. You simply cannot chase the puck and defend 70% of the time and hope to win. Sometimes it feels like 90%. Teams that have success, that win, are on top of the puck and leaning toward the O-zone at least half of the time, sometimes more. Others can get away with less if they have supremely talented scorers. Obviously we don't have that, so....
For me, this is the key to everything. You simply cannot chase the puck and defend 70% of the time and hope to win. Sometimes it feels like 90%. Teams that have success, that win, are on top of the puck and leaning toward the O-zone at least half of the time, sometimes more. Others can get away with less if they have supremely talented scorers. Obviously we don't have that, so....
This...
Keep reading how the CBJ looked alot better last night. They chased the play the whole frickn night. When we had the puck, we could break out at all. We iced the puck more last night then a bakery. Its stunning to see how far the CBJ have fallen confidence wise since last year. While Dubi will bring some back, we are still in need of a major shake up of some sorts.
I agree with this. I'd add that it's a lot easier to forecheck and steal the puck in the o-zone when you have had the puck a lot to begin with. If you've been possessing all shift you can quickly shift to pressuring when the other team gets it, if you haven't had it the whole shift then it's too hard to pressure because you're just chasing the whole time. Poor puck movement is at the root of our troubles - its the antecedent for our inability to get in on the forecheck, and our supposed "lack of heart", which to my mind is usually just because we get stuck chasing but with no opportunities to pressure.
WashedUp
Registered User
- Mar 28, 2014
- 170
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This is the most accurate post here. Add to that 2/3 of our top six on the shelf, Bob getting hurt and then gettin Mason disease when he gets back and it's all a recipe for disaster.
Jarmo has not handled this team right since he's been here, claiming waiver rejects and bringing in washed up has beens is not the way to bolster your team depth.
Quite frankly I think it's abundantly clear that Bob's hand is still bothering him. He had the great game right when he came back, but so too did the team in front of him play better than we're seeing on a nightly basis right now. He came off the shelf too early, perhaps (probably) in response to how we were playing in his absence, and it's been a roller coaster ride ever since.
