What is wrong with the Jackets offense?

[CBJx614]

It is not often that I agree with ca5150. But I do here. Last year the fourth line of DMac, Letestu and Comeau took regular shifts and gave the top lines more time to rest and focus on offense. Has anyone noticed how little ice time the current fourth line gets? That is probably a couple of extra minutes per game added to Joey and Nick's legs. Game after game I suspect that takes a toll on their bodies. Hockey is a team game and when you mess with the team chemistry as JK did this off-season, it has its affect.

And by the way, it is true that Boll played much less last season. But that is part of my point. The fact that Boll is getting so much of an opportunity for playing time this year is clear evidence of the inferiority of this 4th line to the one we had last year.

That's because our 4th line is currently our 3rd line..

 

[Viqsi]

It is not often that I agree with ca5150. But I do here. Last year the fourth line of DMac, Letestu and Comeau took regular shifts and gave the top lines more time to rest and focus on offense. Has anyone noticed how little ice time the current fourth line gets? That is probably a couple of extra minutes per game added to Joey and Nick's legs. Game after game I suspect that takes a toll on their bodies. Hockey is a team game and when you mess with the team chemistry as JK did this off-season, it has its affect.

And by the way, it is true that Boll played much less last season. But that is part of my point. The fact that Boll is getting so much of an opportunity for playing time this year is clear evidence of the inferiority of this 4th line to the one we had last year.

I submit that maybe, just maybe, those issues have less to do with "we didn't keep Comeau and OMG DMac is the new Manny, we were right all along" and more to do with "everybody's injured so we can't have the fourth-liners we like on the fourth line, 'cause the ones that aren't themselves injured are busy pretending to be secondary scoring."

 

[Crede777]

We still let known quantities go for relatively unknown quantities, though, which is rarely smart.

 

[Viqsi]

We still let known quantities go for relatively unknown quantities, though, which is rarely smart.

Correction: it's rarely comfortable. There's a difference. For example, I recognize folks may still have a lingering bad taste in their mouths from Gibbons' performance in the preseason, but one cannot deny that he's been shockingly awesome of late.

 

[EspenK]

Correction: it's rarely comfortable. There's a difference. For example, I recognize folks may still have a lingering bad taste in their mouths from Gibbons' performance in the preseason, but one cannot deny that he's been shockingly awesome of late.

Really?

 

[Viqsi]

Really?

Really. He's forechecking well and creating chances. He's not putting up points, but, well, he's a fourth-liner playing well above his head, so I'm not going to hold that against him.

 

[CBJx614]

Really. He's forechecking well and creating chances. He's not putting up points, but, well, he's a fourth-liner playing well above his head, so I'm not going to hold that against him.

Exactly, when he's playing in his proper role(3-4th line player) he excels at that. I don't like him in a top 6 role, but he's exactly the kind of depth we need. Its just a shame we can't use him as a depth player and are having to rely on him, Skille and others to be major contributors instead of role players.

 

[DarkandStormy]

It is not often that I agree with ca5150. But I do here. Last year the fourth line of DMac, Letestu and Comeau took regular shifts and gave the top lines more time to rest and focus on offense. Has anyone noticed how little ice time the current fourth line gets? That is probably a couple of extra minutes per game added to Joey and Nick's legs. Game after game I suspect that takes a toll on their bodies. Hockey is a team game and when you mess with the team chemistry as JK did this off-season, it has its affect.

And by the way, it is true that Boll played much less last season. But that is part of my point. The fact that Boll is getting so much of an opportunity for playing time this year is clear evidence of the inferiority of this 4th line to the one we had last year.

You just contradicted yourself. You say Boll in the current year is getting more opportunities (while playing on the 4th line). But right above you said the 4th line gets very little ice time. Pick one.

 

[WhyYouHefToBeMad]

I heard Greg Wyshynski on the radio last night. He said that last season, the Jackets made a deal with the devil and this year they're paying for it.

 

[EspenK]

I heard Greg Wyshynski on the radio last night. He said that last season, the Jackets made a deal with the devil and this year they're paying for it.

Taken out of whatever context he said that in, makes no sense to me.

What was he talking about?

 

[major major]

Taken out of whatever context he said that in, makes no sense to me.

What was he talking about?

I presume he's not being serious, just talking about our success last year, and the sudden emergence of Joey, etc... ergo deal with the devil.

 

[CBJx614]

So our deal was that for a year of success the devil gets to injure our entire lineup?

 

[Robert]

Hartnell/Foligno are tweener 1st line players... The team is no longer a four line score by committee team... if the first line wings could be upgraded putting Hartnell and Foligno on the second line the offensive scoring might improve.. Dubi and Anisomov being injured doesn't help but I'm not so sure how much they would improve the overall scoring with the bottom lines not producing as they did last season...

I guess I don't think the top two lines are adequate to carry the load of the current team makeup even if healthy, I may be wrong, just my thoughts..

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Last year forechecking and winning face offs helped compensate for a lack of high end talent.

This year the team doesn't hit anyone, doesn't forecheck well and can't win a faceoff. Johanson is the only healthy center who can win a faceoff with a high percentage. Telling stat to me from the last Panthers game is that they outhit and won the faceoff battle against Florida if I'm not mistaken.

 

[WannabeFinn]

the Foligno/Johansen combo ain't broke so don't focus so much on it, look towards our scoring struggles in the middle 6

 

[major major]

Last year forechecking and winning face offs helped compensate for a lack of high end talent.

This year the team doesn't hit anyone, doesn't forecheck well and can't win a faceoff. Johanson is the only healthy center who can win a faceoff with a high percentage. Telling stat to me from the last Panthers game is that they outhit and won the faceoff battle against Florida if I'm not mistaken.

Look at Jenner's faceoff stats from game to game. He started off awful like most rookie centers but he's learning really fast. Over 50%. Could be one of the best faceoff men in the league before long.

 

[major major]

the Foligno/Johansen combo ain't broke so don't focus so much on it, look towards our scoring struggles in the middle 6

Correct. We do have some encouraging signs with Rychel, Calvert, Skille and Jenner all looking good last game.

 

[major major]

I submit that maybe, just maybe, those issues have less to do with "we didn't keep Comeau and OMG DMac is the new Manny, we were right all along" and more to do with "everybody's injured so we can't have the fourth-liners we like on the fourth line, 'cause the ones that aren't themselves injured are busy pretending to be secondary scoring."

It's certainly possible, you don't need to nose that theory forward as if you're trespassing a minefield.

I think both theories have a lot of truth to them. Our injuries are a terrible drag on our scoring, AND our new fourth liners (even though they are playing more minutes, essentially as a third line because of injury) are scoring much less than the old group that included Mackenzie and Comeau.

 

[ca5150]

It is not often that I agree with ca5150. But I do here. Last year the fourth line of DMac, Letestu and Comeau took regular shifts and gave the top lines more time to rest and focus on offense. Has anyone noticed how little ice time the current fourth line gets? That is probably a couple of extra minutes per game added to Joey and Nick's legs. Game after game I suspect that takes a toll on their bodies. Hockey is a team game and when you mess with the team chemistry as JK did this off-season, it has its affect.

And by the way, it is true that Boll played much less last season. But that is part of my point. The fact that Boll is getting so much of an opportunity for playing time this year is clear evidence of the inferiority of this 4th line to the one we had last year.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day, I'll take it! Well said

 

[WhyYouHefToBeMad]

Taken out of whatever context he said that in, makes no sense to me.

What was he talking about?

His tongue was definitely in his cheek as he said it. But the context was mostly about the mass of injuries to key players.

 

[EDM]

Whether they are playing as third or fourth liners, they are not scoring AT ALL. I don't care about Gibbons' checking, if it does not go in the net and if it does not go in the net, it does not count in the score. DMAC and Comeau checked like crazy AND THEY ALSO SCORED GOALS.

i don't know if you think denying the obvious makes you clever .... But it does not. Last year our fourth line contributed something like 27 goals and almost fifty assists. This year ...........

Last year we had scoring by committee with every one chipping in. This year other than Joey, Nick and Cam, no one is chipping in.

 

[major major]

Whether they are playing as third or fourth liners, they are not scoring AT ALL. I don't care about Gibbons' checking, if it does not go in the net and if it does not go in the net, it does not count in the score. DMAC and Comeau checked like crazy AND THEY ALSO SCORED GOALS.

i don't know if you think denying the obvious makes you clever .... But it does not. Last year our fourth line contributed something like 27 goals and almost fifty assists. This year ...........

Last year we had scoring by committee with every one chipping in. This year other than Joey, Nick and Cam, no one is chipping in.

I'm thinking 27 goals is too high. You've got to be counting Letestu's points from the powerplay and when he and D-Mac and Comeau went up the lineup.

In any case, we aren't getting any goals from their replacements. Startling fail. And Jarmo is entirely the appropriate one to blame for that.

 

[EDM]

The 27 goals are the total for those three players for the year.

 

[WhyYouHefToBeMad]

Taken out of whatever context he said that in, makes no sense to me.

What was he talking about?

I presume he's not being serious, just talking about our success last year, and the sudden emergence of Joey, etc... ergo deal with the devil.

The sound byte in question can be found at the following address

https://soundcloud.com/scott-rintoul-show

Specifically on Dec 2 Hour 2. Greg Wyshynki comes in at ~31:40 and discusses CBJ at ~40:25

 

[Viqsi]

Hartnell/Foligno are tweener 1st line players... The team is no longer a four line score by committee team... if the first line wings could be upgraded putting Hartnell and Foligno on the second line the offensive scoring might improve.. Dubi and Anisomov being injured doesn't help but I'm not so sure how much they would improve the overall scoring with the bottom lines not producing as they did last season...

I guess I don't think the top two lines are adequate to carry the load of the current team makeup even if healthy, I may be wrong, just my thoughts..

GOOD G-DDAMN ****ING HELL. When the everloving nippletwisting **** are we going to FINALLY dump this outdated idea of arbitrary hierarchical caste "lines" and figure out that it's chemistry between individual players that matters?

Foligno's been near-PPG or above PPG playing with Johansen. This is a GOOD THING. DO NOT **** WITH A GOOD THING. QUIT TRYING TO REMOVE HIM FROM THERE G-DDAMNIT, YOU WILL ONLY MAKE US A WORSE TEAM. Just because he can do it doesn't mean you can suddenly throw in someone with More "Talent" (whatever the **** that's supposed to be in this context) and somehow get Better Results. People don't work that way, damnit!


EDIT: *deeeeep breath* Not that I'm opposed to occasional experimentation to see if someone can do better. But as the rant above clearly indicates, I'm just so damn tired of folks trying to break up working combos because "he's not a Nth liner" or similar arbitrary "you're marrying above your caste" bull.

EDIT 2: *deeper breath*
I should be clear. The whole "he's normally a Nth liner" thing is not, inherently, what I find objectionable. That actually does serve as a useful mnemonic for vague player evaluation in generic, all-else-is-equal situations, so it's a useful tool in that sense. What I find maddening is when it gets used to justify player shuffles when something non-generic and helpful and constructive is going on. When we're talking about having Gibbons on the "second line", then saying "he's normally a fourth-liner" is supposed to be a way of understanding why he's not putting up points. When we've got Foligno scoring a point per game on our "first line", pointing out that "he's normally a second-liner" is a way of saying "dude, he's got awesome chemistry with Johansen." It's not a problem when that happens, and treating it like a problem that needs solving is silly.
That's what I was trying to convey.

* * *​

Whether they are playing as third or fourth liners, they are not scoring AT ALL. I don't care about Gibbons' checking, if it does not go in the net and if it does not go in the net, it does not count in the score. DMAC and Comeau checked like crazy AND THEY ALSO SCORED GOALS.

i don't know if you think denying the obvious makes you clever .... But it does not. Last year our fourth line contributed something like 27 goals and almost fifty assists. This year ...........

Last year we had scoring by committee with every one chipping in. This year other than Joey, Nick and Cam, no one is chipping in.

Today we will learn about something called "matchups". It involves what players you're playing against on the other team, and what capabilities and accomplishments can be expected of you as a result.