Speculation: What (if anything) does Colorado do about their goaltending?

[Habs Halifax]

So how exactly should we evaluate goalies potential?. Darcy Kumper played in front of worse team than Carey Price in last few years with better results.
Team Canada is also not asked to commit to Carey Price for next 5 years.

You're missing the point. Several posters are talking about Kuemper and other goalie's "regular season" stats suggesting that they are better than Price where Team Canada is waiting for Price to get healthy and if he is, he is their goalie. Go figure eh. This is very good context into what I am saying... A healthy Price is a game changer and you would be a fool to pick a healthy Kuemper over a healthy Price. Price's ability should not be in question but I repeat... several posters trying to say they have just as much faith in Kuemper (or more) than Price. That's comical

Committing to 4 years past this year from age 34-38 has nothing to do with the side twists of comparing Kumper to Price today. Those are two different conversations. Price's ability today when healthy and with retention vs how long he can hold his value.

The truth is in the middle here but there are way to much Price devalue narratives going on. Price just took the Habs to the finals at age 33 and people are acting like he is 38 already

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I disagree you are not trying to devalue Price

All I'm doing is poking holes in the baseless claims being made by the latest sleazy goalie salesman to come around suggesting we desperately need the guy they've been trying to sell us for the last 3 years. There's no reason for me to devalue him, because I see no reason to even go to the market looking for a new starting goalie right now, let alone try to negotiate a better price on something I'm not trying to buy. And for the record, the answer started as a polite no thank you, but you wouldn't take that for an answer and insisted that you knew better. It's not my fault that it's so laughably easy to poke massive holes in every one of your arguments in favor of Price, and you don't know what to do other than whine that I must be devaluing him. Get better arguments, preferably based on facts and not blind faith, and maybe you'll get better results next week when you try again.

 

[Habs Halifax]

So you're arguing in favor of something that's not true in the case of the first thing you mentioned and a fairy tale in regards to 50% retention?

I'm debating Price's value when healthy and with 50% retention. It's not rocket science

 

[Islay1989]

I'm debating Price's value when healthy and with 50% retention. It's not rocket science

I love how you talk down to others while completely ignoring what they are saying. Price is not healthy, Habs won't retain 50%. The whole premise you're arguing for is so deeply flawed it's nonsensical to entertain it.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I love how you talk down to others while completely ignoring what they are saying. Price is not healthy, Habs won't retain 50%. The whole premise you're arguing for is so deeply flawed it's nonsensical to entertain it.

Well, it's been multiple threads and you didn't comprehend it well. That's on you, not me but you are in belittle and devalue mode and trying to say the Habs are desperate to unload or dump Price to the Avs. That's a reality you are created that don't exist. You feel like your being talked down to and I can't control that if you miss comprehend the conversation over and over again.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I don't know about you but most of the comments you see in the 10 pages so far is defending Price's value when healthy and available at 50% retention. We are not that desperate to "unload" or "dump" Price on the Avs. That's just false spins

Years of consistent threads where Habs fans insist that the Avs need to pay a lot for Price and refuse to take no for an answer does have an air of desperation.

 

[Islay1989]

Well, it's been multiple threads and you didn't comprehend it well. That's on you, not me but you are in belittle and devalue mode and trying to say the Habs are desperate to unload or dump Price to the Avs. That's a reality you are created that don't exist.

You keep posting about things I never said. Find my post where I said the Habs are desperate to dump him? I'm saying he isn't healthy and that the Habs aren't desperate enough to retain 50%. Meanwhile, you are arguing they are desperate enough to retain 50%. It's hilarious someone can accuse others of the things he is doing himself.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Well, it's been multiple threads and you didn't comprehend it well. That's on you, not me but you are in belittle and devalue mode and trying to say the Habs are desperate to unload or dump Price to the Avs. That's a reality you are created that don't exist. You feel like your being talked down to and I can't control that if you miss comprehend the conversation over and over again.

"I can't make a coherent argument in favor of Price, but refuse to admit that I'm wrong, so it must be your fault for not understanding my inane ramblings."

 

[Islay1989]

"I can't make a coherent argument in favor of Price, but refuse to admit that I'm wrong, so it must be your fault for not understanding my inane ramblings."

It's quite enjoyable seeing someone call others for name-calling while they proceed to insult the intelligence of anyone not aligning themselves to their POV.

 

[dahrougem2]

The truth is in the middle here but there are way to much Price devalue narratives going on. Price just took the Habs to the finals at age 33 and people are acting like he is 38 already

That's just it, though. He took them to the Finals but in literally any normal year, Montreal wouldn't have even made the playoffs and it's in large part because of Price's play. The last two postseason appearances for Montreal don't happen any other normal year.

I'm not taking chances on a guy that's clearly lost interest in regular season play at the age of 34 for the next 4 years.

 

[franste Perreault]

I'm debating Price's value when healthy and with 50% retention. It's not rocket science

Is Price playing right now ? NO
He probably not playing an nhl game before 2022.
He will need to prove that he can compete at high level again before any trade talk.
No GM will take Price at this moment too risky.
He need to play a minimum of 20 games and stay out of any injury.
His value is low right now because all point before but if he can check in all the points before his value in a trade will be increase and Montreal will have a better return. It's very sad for habs fans but if Bergevin trade Price in 2018 or 2019 Montreal have more than now.
Montreal Canadiens fans will pay 5 more year for Bergevin lack of vision.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Is Price playing right now ? NO
He probably not playing an nhl game before 2022.
He will need to prove that he can compete at high level again before any trade talk.
No GM will take Price at this moment too risky.
He need to play a minimum of 20 games and stay out of any injury.
His value is low right now because all point before but if he can check in all the points before his value in a trade will be increase and Montreal will have a better return. It's very sad for habs fans but if Bergevin trade Price in 2018 or 2019 Montreal have more than now.
Montreal Canadiens fans will pay 5 more year for Bergevin lack of vision.

The conversation is when Price is healthy. Not before.

I don't think he needs to prove anything other than getting healthy and that's going to come in January sometime. Habs and Price are taking their time and it's a smart move on that. Makes no sense to rush him back in this mess

I don't care about Bergevin narratives. We have new management now with a new GM and head scout to be hired in the new year sometime. Will they decide to do a full rebuild? We will see. If they do, Price is not going to want to stay and drown in this rebuild like Lundqvist did with the Rangers. I'm fairly confident on that... if we decide to rebuild

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

The conversation is when Price is healthy. Not before.

Then maybe we should wait and have the conversation you want to have when Price is actually healthy. Not before.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Then maybe we should wait and have the conversation you want to have when Price is actually healthy. Not before.

We could but we can also talk about the hypothetical of when he is healthy again too. Which is what the main narratives is. Anyways, this is the Avs goalie issue thread. I'll let you be on that. But if you want to devalue Price, don't be surprise if I comment.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

We could but we can also talk about the hypothetical of when he is healthy again too. Which is what the main narratives is. Anyways, this is the Avs goalie issue thread. I'll let you be on that. But if you want to devalue Price, don't be surprise if I comment.

Sure, start a thread about what Price's value might possibly be if he returns healthy. But, since we've already had that conversation probably 200 times in the last 6 months, don't be surprised when everyone groans about it being brought up again like there's something new to discuss that wasn't brought up the last 50 times. It's been absolutely beaten to death. But, go for it. I'm sure you have something new and insightful to add to the subject that you've been keeping in your back pocket while ranting about Grubauer's play in Seattle.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Sure, start a thread about what Price's value might possibly be if he returns healthy. But, since we've already had that conversation probably 200 times in the last 6 months, don't be surprised when everyone groans about it being brought up again like there's something new to discuss that wasn't brought up the last 50 times. It's been absolutely beaten to death. But, go for it. I'm sure you have something new and insightful to add to the subject that you've been keeping in your back pocket while ranting about Grubauer's play in Seattle.

I'm not ranting on Grubauer's play in Seattle. It's context to use with you and others trying to use goalie's true ability by looking at regular season stats and completely ignoring the team in front of them. Avs should understand the Grubauer narrative well cause you valued him and he had good stats on your cup contending team but not so good on a weaker team. It's staring you in the face but you want to spin that into me ranting. Well, call it ranting all day long... I call it good context to counter those "regular season" stats

If you don't want me in this thread and to stop replying, don't reply to me. It's not complicated. But don't be surprised if you fuel the fire and the fire burns you back

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I'm not ranting on Grubauer's play in Seattle. It's context to use with you and others trying to use goalie's true ability by looking at regular season stats and completely ignoring the team in front of them. Avs should understand the Grubauer narrative well cause you valued him and he had good stats on your cup contending team but not so good on a weaker team. It's staring you in the face but you want to spin that into me ranting. Well, call it ranting all day long... I call it good context to counter those "regular season" stats

You have yet to explain how Grubauer's struggles in Seattle, an expansion team that was purposefully built to tank and amass high draft picks, is even remotely relevant to Colorado this season, or how Grubauer relates to any of my concerns about Price, so I still don't understand how your "context" applies to what is being discussed. From my point of view, it looks like you're just trying to change the subject to say something negative about a guy who used to play on my team, because the truth hurt your feelings. If you want to counter the regular season stats, come up with a rational explanation for why Price hasn't been able to outperform Dubnyk, despite Montreal being comparable to Minnesota and San Jose with Dubnyk. Or maybe try to explain why his regular season stats aren't a cause for concern, instead of throwing the team under the bus and pretending it's all their fault. Actually address the point being made instead of finding that one little thing to get mad about and going off on a meaningless tangent to try to change the subject.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You have yet to explain how Grubauer's struggles in Seattle, an expansion team that was purposefully built to tank and amass high draft picks, is even remotely relevant to Colorado this season, or how Grubauer relates to any of my concerns about Price, so I still don't understand how your "context" applies to what is being discussed. From my point of view, it looks like you're just trying to change the subject to say something negative about a guy who used to play on my team, because the truth hurt your feelings. If you want to counter the regular season stats, come up with a rational explanation for why Price hasn't been able to outperform Dubnyk, despite Montreal being comparable to Minnesota and San Jose with Dubnyk. Or maybe try to explain why his regular season stats aren't a cause for concern, instead of throwing the team under the bus and pretending it's all their fault. Actually address the point being made instead of finding that one little thing to get mad about and going off on a meaningless tangent to try to change the subject.

Don't move the goal post again. The Grubauer context is about you trying to use regular season stats and ignoring the teams the goalie plays on. Grubauer's stats this year don't mean he sucks as a goalie but you tried that with Price. Stay on point. This is a counter debate to your Price "regular season" context on how he is no longer as good as he was. This coming right after his age 33 march to the finals and also coming right after he recovered from an "injury".

His trade value at 50% retention while the Habs take on 1/2 year cap dumps has nothing to do with Grubauer yes. But it does matter if you make attempts to evaluate his regular season stats and ignore his playoff stats and how he carried the Habs to the finals. Most in and outside of Montreal had that narrative last year. Don't ignore it

 

[Jeune Poulet]

I'm debating Price's value when healthy and with 50% retention. It's not rocket science

 

[Habs Halifax]

You calling me a used car salesman?

 

[EdAVSfan]

Don't move the goal post again. The Grubauer context is about you trying to use regular season stats and ignoring the teams the goalie plays on. Grubauer's stats this year don't mean he sucks as a goalie but you tried that with Price. Stay on point. This is a counter debate to your Price "regular season" context on how he is no longer as good as he was. This coming right after his age 33 march to the finals and also coming right after he recovered from an "injury".

His trade value at 50% retention while the Habs take on 1/2 year cap dumps has nothing to do with Grubauer yes. But it does matter if you make attempts to evaluate his regular season stats and ignore his playoff stats and how he carried the Habs to the finals. Most in and outside of Montreal had that narrative last year. Don't ignore it

If we’re using the context of goalies stats of teams playing in front of them, should we not look at Kuemper’s fantastic stats on a crappy Arizona team?

Don’t those numbers say we should stick with him instead of Price?

 

[Snowman]

This is what I think of reading through this thread. You've got the used car salesmen going "ignore the Carfax showing all the wear and tear and miles. Just think about how shiny it might be if you wax it."

 

[Habs Halifax]

If we’re using the context of goalies stats of teams playing in front of them, should we not look at Kuemper’s fantastic stats on a crappy Arizona team?

Don’t those numbers say we should stick with him instead of Price?

Kuemper's stats were solid which is why you traded for him. That is accurate. But it don't reveal the true potential of how someone like Kuemper can carry a team in the playoffs like Price can. Price gives you an added edge. It's similar to the edge Roy gave you back when.

The main point is not to overvalue or under value regular season stats. It's context you can use but it don't usually reveal the true potential and in Price's case, he is proven and it's a question about health more than anything else. Reality

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Don't move the goal post again. The Grubauer context is about you trying to use regular season stats and ignoring the teams the goalie plays on. Grubauer's stats this year don't mean he sucks as a goalie but you tried that with Price. Stay on point. This is a counter debate to your Price "regular season" context on how he is no longer as good as he was. This coming right after his age 33 march to the finals and also coming right after he recovered from an "injury".

His trade value at 50% retention while the Habs take on 1/2 year cap dumps has nothing to do with Grubauer yes. But it does matter if you make attempts to evaluate his regular season stats and ignore his playoff stats and how he carried the Habs to the finals. Most in and outside of Montreal had that narrative last year. Don't ignore it

I'm just trying to put it back where it was before you moved it in the first place. I fully agree that Grubauer benefitted greatly from playing behind the Avs defense. I'm also not the least bit surprised that he's struggling in Seattle, given how that team was built. Where you lose me is how this even remotely suggests that Price shouldn't be expected to put up better numbers than Devan Dubnyk, despite being the single most talented goalie in the NHL and a lock for the starter role with Team Canada. If he's really that good, and their both playing on a comparable non-playoff teams, why don't you expect him to put up better numbers than a guy who sucks? If I were a Habs fan, I know I'd be disappointed.

I also don't disagree that at 50% retention for 4 seasons, a 1st + A + B prospect is very reasonable because $21m in retention would usually cost a lot more. And taking back cap dumps will almost certainly be required to make it work for a contender, no question. But, again, you lose me in how any of this suggests that a team should pick Price over every other option that can be had for significantly less. Why pay that for Price instead of someone like Quick or Holtby for just a 2nd? How is going after the most expensive option available, instead of something much more affordable that's not really that different in the grand scheme of things, a good use of assets?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'm just trying to put it back where it was before you moved it in the first place. I fully agree that Grubauer benefitted greatly from playing behind the Avs defense. I'm also not the least bit surprised that he's struggling in Seattle, given how that team was built. Where you lose me is how this even remotely suggests that Price shouldn't be expected to put up better numbers than Devan Dubnyk, despite being the single most talented goalie in the NHL and a lock for the starter role with Team Canada. If he's really that good, and their both playing on a comparable non-playoff teams, why don't you expect him to put up better numbers than a guy who sucks? If I were a Habs fan, I know I'd be disappointed.

I also don't disagree that at 50% retention for 4 seasons, a 1st + A + B prospect is very reasonable because $21m in retention would usually cost a lot more. And taking back cap dumps will almost certainly be required to make it work for a contender, no question. But, again, you lose me in how any of this suggests that a team should pick Price over every other option that can be had for significantly less. Why pay that for Price instead of someone like Quick or Holtby for just a 2nd? How is going after the most expensive option available, instead of something much more affordable that's not really that different in the grand scheme of things, a good use of assets?

This is more reasonable than some of your other posts. I applaud you for coming around on it. We have been giving each other a hard time but we might be closer than it appears