What does Kucherov need to do to surpass Ovechkin and become the greatest Russian player to ever play in the NHL?

[KareemTrustfund]

1. It was poorly explained then. But hey, which players born from 2000 (U24) are superstars in the NHL today ? Kucherov and McKinnon became ones at 24, so what? What does this demonstrate ?

2. You speak in the conditional. But he did not do it. Ovechkin even less, Crosby only twice in 14 years. So if it were that easy... With conditions (no injuries, no Covid), Kucherov could have scored you 7 in a row

3. Season 2014/15

Stamkos 82 games (43/29/+2) 26 games (7/11/+2)
Kucherov 82 games (29/36/+38) 26 games (10/12/+7)

Sorry.

1. None. Again you’re illustrating my point. That’s what made Crosby and Ovechkin and Malkin different. That’s what separates them from a MacKinnon and Kucherov. Waving it off as “well it was early in Kucherovs career” makes no sense.



2. Okay but they easily would have. He was still one the best which is all I’m trying to say. That he didn’t fade into the sunset like some people think.

3.Wait … so Kucherov had a better statistical year than Stamkos in 14/15 so that means .. what exactly ? It still wasn’t anywhere near Stamkos best at that time. What’s the relavence of this? Nobody was calling Kucherov better at this point. He wasn’t even close to a PPG. Is this supposed to matter in an argument of the best Russian ?

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

1. None. Again you’re illustrating my point. That’s what made Crosby and Ovechkin and Malkin different. That’s what separates them from a MacKinnon and Kucherov. Waving it off as “well it was early in Kucherovs career” makes no sense.



2. Okay but they easily would have. He was still one the best which is all I’m trying to say. That he didn’t fade into the sunset like some people think.

3.Wait … so Kucherov had a better statistical year than Stamkos in 14/15 so that means .. what exactly ? It still wasn’t anywhere near Stamkos best at that time. What’s the relavence of this? Nobody was calling Kucherov better at this point. He wasn’t even close to a PPG. Is this supposed to matter in an argument of the best Russian ?

1. So for you, you have to explode at 20 and drop in level from 25 to be more considered than guys who explode at 24 and continue to progress until 30 ? It makes no sence.

2. But they didn't. So it wasn't that easy. Why didn't these players win the Hart Trophy after 2014 ?

3. Stamkos has said for years that the best player is Kucherov. In addition, Kucherov's playing profile is wider than that of Stamkos and this was already the case at the time. It's just that Kucherov was a revelation. Stamkos was already established. The seasons that followed all confirmed the change in leadership. Stop being stuck in 2014. Update.

 

[llamateizer]

Kucherov need to beat Ovechkin in points.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

1. So for you, you have to explode at 20 and drop in level from 25 to be more considered than guys who explode at 24 and continue to progress until 30 ? It makes no sence.
2. But they didn't. So it wasn't that easy. Why didn't these players win the Hart Trophy after 2014 ?

3. Stamkos has said for years that the best player is Kucherov. Stop being stuck in 2014. Update.

1. No, but the guys who DO explode at 20 and keep up a significantly high level of play until 36 (Malkin) I would have higher. Malkin had no significant drop off as I tried to illustrate to you earlier.

2. Well I mean , if you don’t care about pace than that’s no issue to me. I won’t convince you. It shows they were still the best of the best imo.

3. You’re clearly frustrated and grasping with this. I don’t care what Stamkos says or if Kucherov put up a well below PPG year but it was better than Stamkos. Don’t know why it matters. Also being stuck in 2014? Guess we should just ignore everything before 17/18 to fit your narrative.

 

[filinski77]

Ya those 2 Hart finishes kind of show the luck Ovi needed to be there in the first place and the 12-13 Hart with the unbalanced schedule is a really weak one right?

Even the 14-15 second place finish he was tied for 20th in ESP and had the benefit of an extremely good Capitals PP that year, John Tavares who finished 3rd has as much of a Hart case as Ovi did that year and there was more timely luck with Crosby missing 5 games and being sick in December but still outscoring Ovi.

for as much as a certain poster tries to claim that Ovi has been hurt by some supposed Canadian bias, he actually has gotten the benefit of the doubt more often than not in terms of Hart voting and others, ironically mostly Canadians (Tavares in 14-15), haven't.

2013: Sucks that Crosby missed time that year for sure. But that's not Ovi's fault. He lead the league in goals (10% lead over #2), and was 3rd in points (4 points behind #1, who had almost half the goals that year). Ovi still had the best season that year (even if Crosby was the better player that year).

2015: PP points still count man, and realistically that powerplay was good BECAUSE of Ovechkin. Outside of Backstrom having a good point total (largely due to Ovechkin), look at how much Ovi carried that team lol. Tavares had a good season, but we all know that a huge advantage in goals > a small advantage in points. Tavares had 5 more points, but Ovechkin had FIFTEEN more goals. That's huge and you know it.

	Points
Ovechkin	81​
Backstrom	78​
Carlson	55​
Johansson	47​
	Goals
Ovechkin	53​
Brouwer	21​
Johansson	20​
Fehr	19​

 

[YippieKaey]

Kucherovs adjusted points are nowhere near Ovis. Ovis adjusted goals are above Gretzkys. Ovis actual goals will likely end up above Gretzky.

Different eras, Ovi had his prime in a low scoring era. Kucherov had the opposite.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

Kucherovs adjusted points are nowhere near Ovis. Ovis adjusted goals are above Gretzkys. Ovis actual goals will likely end up above Gretzky.

Different eras, Ovi had his prime in a low scoring era. Kucherov had the opposite.

It’s truly astonishing the amount of people who don’t see the difference in era and don’t really think it matters.

For example , in 2012 there were 8 players over PPG and only one over a hundred (Malkin)

There are now 8 or 9 hitting 100 every given year. The PPG players quadrupled after 17/18 when they shrunk the goalie pads.

 

[Devilsfan118]

Kucherov is the better player.

It never surprises me how "what have you done lately" folks are.

 

[Canovin]

Repeat this season next season

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

1. No, but the guys who DO explode at 20 and keep up a significantly high level of play until 36 (Malkin) I would have higher. Malkin had no significant drop off as I tried to illustrate to you earlier.

2. Well I mean , if you don’t care about pace than that’s no issue to me. I won’t convince you. It shows they were still the best of the best imo.

3. You’re clearly frustrated and grasping with this. I don’t care what Stamkos says or if Kucherov put up a well below PPG year but it was better than Stamkos. Don’t know why it matters. Also being stuck in 2014? Guess we should just ignore everything before 17/18 to fit your narrative.

1. Rather weak as an argument. With that, I get a Laurent Fignon above Miguel Indurain. Nicolas Anelka above Didier Drogba. It makes no sense.

2. Malkin/Crosby more than Ovechkin but there is a difference. They went from ultra-dominant players - the best (Superstars) to among the best (Franchise). McDavid and Kucherov relegated them in the late 2010s.

3. But you have nothing to prove that Stamkos was better than Kucherov. Nothing obvious. And your word is worthless in the face of the reality of the facts. Kucherov already had better stats in 2014/5. Ouch. And Stamkos is not really the guy who defends well and makes plays to compensate.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

1. Rather weak as an argument. With that, I get a Laurent Fignon above Miguel Indurain. Nicolas Anelka above Didier Drogba. It makes no sense.
2. Malkin/Crosby more than Ovechkin but there is a difference. They went from ultra-dominant players - the best (Superstars) to among the best (Franchise). McDavid and Kucherov relegated them in the late 2010s.
3. But you have nothing to prove that Stamkos was better than Kucherov. Nothing obvious. And your word is worthless in the face of the reality of the facts. Kucherov already had better stats in 2014/5. Ouch. And Stamkos is not really the guy who defends well and makes plays to compensate.

It makes perfect sense actually. You can say it doesn’t but I presented facts and you’re only presenting vibes and feelings as to why Kucherov was apparently this huge star prior to the goalie gear shrinkage

2. Malkin was a superstar from 2007 to 2020. Full stop. Some meh years from injuries and whatever. Would you consider Kucherovs injury years just ok or would you say he was a superstar still? Era adjusted they’re pretty well the same as Malkin’s “down years” which are still always over ppg.

3 To be clear we are talking 2015 and before that. AT THAT TIME Stamkos had an MVP caliber year and 65 goal season and maybe another 50 I’m too lazy to check. Kucherov outscored him in 2015 with not even a ppg season. Stop talking about this.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Kucherov already has more top 10 seasons in points than Malkin does and is more likely to get more than Malkin at this stage. As I said in the other thread, it doesn't make sense to ignore Kucherov's per 60 production in 2014-15 before he had a bigger role and then use Malkin's per 60 production at later points in his career. I'm sure it makes sense in your brain to do that in order to hit a conclusion that you are hoping for, but objectively it does not.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

It makes perfect sense actually. You can say it doesn’t but I presented facts and you’re only presenting vibes and feelings as to why Kucherov was apparently this huge star prior to the goalie gear shrinkage

2. Malkin was a superstar from 2007 to 2020. Full stop. Some meh years from injuries and whatever. Would you consider Kucherovs injury years just ok or would you say he was a superstar still? Era adjusted they’re pretty well the same as Malkin’s “down years” which are still always over ppg.

3 To be clear we are talking 2015 and before that. AT THAT TIME Stamkos had an MVP caliber year and 65 goal season and maybe another 50 I’m too lazy to check. Kucherov outscored him in 2015 with not even a ppg season. Stop talking about this.

1. Absurd. Especially considering Kucherov's style relies on skating and skill with the stick. Nothing to do with goalkeeper equipment. In 2016/17 it was already a top 5 in productivity anyway.

2. We don't have the same definition. Superstars, in my opinion there are hardly more than 3 in the same season. There may be 0 as it's rare. He is a player who crushes the competition in a big way. A guy like Kucherov this season.

On EA Sports NHL scale, it gives

95-99 Superstar
91-94 Franchise
87-90 Elite
84-86 Top 6

3. Stop inventing a life for yourself. You simply didn't know that Kucherov was already doing very well in 2014-15 and I don't really see the relevance. The debate is Ovechkin/Kucherov. Yes Ovechkin was better than Kucherov until he was 24. But from the age of 25, Kucherov was constantly above Ovechkin and is set to continue in the coming years. In the end, Kucherov has a better career masterpiece including the most brilliant Play-Off career of his generation.

If I have to choose between Kucherov's masterpiece or Ovechkin's, I will take Kucherov's without hesitation. It's like that.

 

[ReimanSum1908]

Crosby won’t either and he’s been/will be seen as being objectively better than Ovechkin.

Is he really? Team and international success in part outside of his control contribute to that. If Ovechkin had Crosby's cup rings and medals, the prevailing narrative within fans' minds might be different.

Also, he's Canadian. That matters. Let the reader understand.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

1. Absurd. Especially considering Kucherov's style relies on skating and skill with the stick. Nothing to do with goalkeeper equipment. In 2016/17 it was already a top 5 in productivity anyway.

2. We don't have the same definition. Superstars, in my opinion there are hardly more than 3 in the same season. There may be 0 as it's rare. He is a player who crushes the competition in a big way. A guy like Kucherov this season.

On EA Sports NHL scale, it gives

95-99 Superstar
91-94 Franchise
87-90 Elite
84-86 Top 6

3. Stop inventing a life for yourself. You simply didn't know that Kucherov was already doing very well in 2014-15 and I don't really see the relevance. The debate is Ovechkin/Kucherov. Yes Ovechkin was better than Kucherov until he was 24. But from the age of 25, Kucherov was constantly above Ovechkin and is set to continue in the coming years. In the end, Kucherov has a better career masterpiece including the most brilliant Play-Off career of his generation.

If I have to choose between Kucherov's masterpiece or Ovechkin's, I will take Kucherov's without hesitation. It's like that.

Good god man. I don’t even know what to say this stuff. Goalie gear doesn’t have any affect on the absoute explosion of offense since it changed? Kucherovs style means the goalie gear change wouldn’t affect him? What???

I’m not even going to dignify the EA nonsense with a reply.

And to suggest Malkin isn’t a superstar because superstars always put up seasons like Kucherovs this year.. so by your own admission Kucherov was only a superstar this season and 18-19. Got it.

 

[filinski77]

OV lead league Art Ross. (and lead the league in points/gp 3 times)
Kucherov did same. (twice, lead the league in points/gp twice)
OV won the Hart. (3 times, including 4 total as the top-voted skater)
Kucherov did same. (1 time, maybe twice)
OV won Rocket. (9 times, most in history, and will finish #1 in raw and adjusted goals all-time).
Kucherov only winger ever to record 100 assists.
OV won Cup and Con Smythe.
Kucherov won 2 Cups. (and had a significantly more stacked team than Ovi had over his career)
It's a coin toss at best.
No clear cut winner.
Kuch would get my vote.
But that's just me.

Added some dire context for ya that you missed. Not to mention things like having more top-10 point finishes, more than double the top-10 Hart finishes etc.

Kucherov is the best playmaking winger in history

Not true. Kucherov likely has the best single season for assists for a winger (even adjusted-wise). But career wise? No chance.

Kucherov assist finishes = 1/1/2/6/8
Lafleur assist finishes = 1/2/2/3/3/5
Jagr assist finishes = 1/1/1/3/3/3/5/7/7/9
Howe assist finishes = don't get me started. Like 20 total top-10, with 3x 1-st place finishes

Kucherov is one of the best playmaking wingers in history, but isn't even top-100 all-time in assists yet lol. Kucherovs status as an all-time playmaker is not even in the same universe as Ovi's as an all-time goalscorer.

It doesn't hold up. In 2017, Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin were supposed to be at their biological prime

At 30/31 years old, those are not their athletic primes at all. Huge difference in sports. The vast majority of elite hockey players peak before 27.

Lucic, Benn, Ovechkin, Giroux... saw their stats drop at a very early age. So if it was so easy to score 100 points in the McDavid era, the guys from the Crosby generation would have had a string of 100-point seasons between 2015 and 2020.

Lucic? wtf does he have to do with anything.

I can pull the stats for you and show you if you want - but Ovi/Malkin/Crosby/Kane/Stamkos (the top-guys from the last generation) ALL started scoring more points after 2017 when goalie pad changes and expansion occurred (in-line with increase league-wide scoring). This is despite the fact that they were all clearly past their primes and getting into their 30's.

You have literally no idea what you're talking about with this point.

 

[Toby91ca]

There is an assumption here that OV is the greatest ever Russian born player. IMO he’s not. Kucherov is a great player. There are other Russian players who were better though.
Is Kucherov better than ov. That’s close between those two. But there have been a lot of fabulous Russian born players.

So who do you think is the greatest ever Russian born player? Not a challenge or dispute from my perspective, as there have been some really good players over the years, but I think it's really hard to compare against guys that didn't really have NHL careers. Not sure you can argue any Russian has accomplished more in the NHL than OV.

Kucherov will be ahead of Malkin, no doubt and I understand people thinking there is no way he can surpass OV, but I don't get the comments like, "nothing....there is absolutely nothing he can do to surpass OV" - why? I get that it's unimaginable due to OV's longevity to think that Kucherov will do something so great in his older years, but certainly he could do things that would get him there....those things just aren't likely. And I certainly don't share the view that getting to 800+ goals is a pre-requisite, it absolutely isn't......if you were comparing Bure to OV, maybe.

 

[Rschmitz]

A 200 point season or 2000 career points to compare OVY's career accomplishments. Virtually impossible

 

[Toby91ca]

Added some dire context for ya that you missed. Not to mention things like having more top-10 point finishes, more than double the top-10 Hart finishes etc.

I think you added the comment about 3 Harts for OV, 4 total as the top voted skater. What does that mean? Maybe I'm just being dumb today, but what's the top voted skater?

A 200 point season or 2000 career points to compare OVY's career accomplishments. Virtually impossible

I don't know about that. Let's say OV gets the goal record and finishes around 1,650pts. If Kucherov gets to 1,900+ points, has more Hart's, Lindsay's Art Ross' than OV....I'd have no problem suggesting he surpassed OV. I don't think that's likely of course, but I'm not going to hold the goal record so high that you basically have to do unthinkable things to surpass.

 

[PaulD]

They are both elite players. I would take Kucherov over OV for my team. By a nose. Once they are that close is personal preference and eye test. Thet is no "proving" someone wrong . lol. These guys with the "my dad is stronger than your dad" takes are comical.

 

[Rschmitz]

I think you added the comment about 3 Harts for OV, 4 total as the top voted skater. What does that mean? Maybe I'm just being dumb today, but what's the top voted skater?


I don't know about that. Let's say OV gets the goal record and finishes around 1,650pts. If Kucherov gets to 1,900+ points, has more Hart's, Lindsay's Art Ross' than OV....I'd have no problem suggesting he surpassed OV. I don't think that's likely of course, but I'm not going to hold the goal record so high that you basically have to do unthinkable things to surpass.

Sure, there are other ways to get it done. 5 Harts for instance, etc.

Goal record is a marquee career accomplishment though, few comparables.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

Kuch's peak is on par with Ovi's now. Kuch also has a better playoff resume as well. A big part of Ovi's dominance comes from having one of the best post 30 hockey careers in league history. Would be very tough for Kuch to match that.

 

[FissionFire]

Go back in time like the Terminator and prevent Ovechkin from ever being born. That’s the only way he can surpass him.

 

[Acallabeth]

If we don't count Cups and Conn Smythe (mostly team awards), don't count Calder (because it's not among 'the best player' awards, even if AO won it over 102-point Crosby) and generously give Kucherov all the trophies he hasn't won yet this year, then:

Kucherov has 2 Art Rosses, 2 Harts, 2 Lindsays, 2x1st and 2x2nd NHL AST.
Ovechkin has 1 Art Ross, 3 Harts, 3 Lindsays, 9 Rockets, 8x1st and 4x2nd NHL AST.
Malkin has 2 Art Rosses, 1 Hart, 1 Lindsay, 3x1st NHL AST (a stronger poistion though).

100-point seasons: 4-4.
Top 5 point finishes: 5-5.

Goal scoring obviously massively favors Ovechkin. Both guys are main scoring forwards not known for their defensive game. A massive style difference of a finesse playmaker vs aggressive goal scorer. Ovechkin has another dimension as an effective physical player.

I think it's clear that Ovechkin has achieved more, in an era when scoring was more difficult, on a much weaker team as well. But one more season with major awards, and it will be perfectly fine to reason that Kucherov's peak is as good or better as Ovechkin's was.

What makes it very difficult to argue Kucherov's overall legacy over Ovechkin is that AO is the best of all time at what he does (scoring goalz) and, God willing, will have the numbers to show it, even over guys who played in ridiculous era like the 80s.

And while it's relatively minor for their NHL ranking, it would be a bit bitter to call Kucherov 'the greatest Russian to play in the NHL' when he has zero championships with the national team. Not to diminish Kucherov for Tampa's long PO runs lol, or not to say he hasn't been great for the national team, but... still.

So for you, you have to explode at 20 and drop in level from 25 to be more considered than guys who explode at 24 and continue to progress until 30 ? It makes no sence.

It's true that hockey community is notoriously conservative and somehwat biased towards the players who were high flight prospects, high draft picks and early bloomers.

But arguing that it's not easier to score today than it was 10-15 years ago is just... strange. The league has made numerous steps to increase scoring: different policy towards enforcing the rules (no uncalled interference/obstruction all over the ice (that consequently led to near-extinction of defensive defensemen), 3v3 OT, goaltender equipment, less physicality (flying headshot charges were the norm during 'the big 3' prime). And it's good. Skilled players prevail now.

Also, it's not like 'the big 3' fell of the face of the Earth. If we consider 2017 (1st McDavid Art Ross) the start of the new era, season by season:

2017: Crosby 2nd in points and wins Rocket (44 goals), Malkin 3rd in PPG among regular players (Kucherov 4th), Ovechkin has a garbage season.
2018: Ovechkin wins Rocket (49 goals), Malkin 3rd in PPG among regular players (Kucherov 4th), Crosby has a solid season. Ovechkin has his highest points total since 2010. Malkin has his highest points total since 2012.
2019: Ovechkin wins Rocket (51 goals), Crosby t-5th in points, Malkin has a weakish season. Kucherov wins the Art Ross.
2020, shortened asterisk season: Ovechkin wins Rocket (48 goals), Malkin is 7th in PPG among regular players (also has his best PPG since 2012. Kucherov 10th), Crosby has a weakish season.
2021, crappy COVID season: first year all 3 aren't really that impressive: Crosby (34 y.o.) 10th in points, but Ovechkin (36) and Malkin (35) have weakish seasons. Kucherov resting on laurels))
2022: Ovechkin (37) 4th in goals (50 goals) and has his highest points total since 2010. Crosby and Malkin miss a lot of time and have solid part-seasons.
2023: another weak season for the old guard: Ovechkin 10th in goals (40 goals), Crosby and Malkin 16th and 26th in points. However, Crosby (35) has his 2nd best points totals since 2014.
2024: similar to the last season. Crosby (36) again has his 2nd best points totals since 2014.

So, answering the question 'why wouldn't old stars score more than when the scoring went up - they... did exactly that. All three had been world class before hitting ~35, when it's completely expected to decline.

 

[AndreRoy]

Prime Ovechkin >>>>> Prime Kucherov.

Playoff Kucherov >>>>> Playoff Ovechkin