What does Kucherov need to do to surpass Ovechkin and become the greatest Russian player to ever play in the NHL?

[Bone Breaker]

imo Kucherov didnt pass yet Malkin, Fedorov or Datsyuk, so he is quite far away from reaching this conversation with Ovie.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

17/18… the year the goalie gear shrank and five million new stars were born. PPG players quadrupled. Kucherov wasn’t really elite before 16-17.



Comparing raw point totals without context just doesn’t work between these two eras.

Elite is top 100 in the league. He already had the level of Stamkos, even slightly above between 2014 and 2016. Stamkos was a very big player at the time.

Players' PPG hasn't increased that much. It's above all the level. We always come back to the season when Benn won the Art Ross. Jamie Benn could win the Art Ross. Today, the same player at his prime would be very far from 1st place.

 

[wetcoast]

My hot take is they should get a chance to play together at the Olympics. Imagine with Michkov as well, multiple generations together.

Well the 3 of them could lobby for it right?

Oh wait......

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Prime Ovechkin >>>>> Prime Kucherov.

Kucherov Prime : 3 Finals, 144 points season, Best Play-Off Career
Ovechkin Prime : 0 Semi-Final, 112 points season, Nothing in Play-Off

 

[wetcoast]

Kucherov Prime : 3 Finals, 144 points season, Best Play-Off Career
Ovechkin Prime : 0 Semi-Final, 112 points season, Nothing in Play-Off

Both of you guys are wrong.

Ovi had the better prime but it's not a huge gap like the first guy is suggesting.

Ovi in his prime had an excellent individual playoff resume even if his team's didn't advance.

Right now this is clearly Ovi but who knows if Kuch has another big playoff year and another couple of 100 point season the gap will begin to narrow even more.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

OV lead league Art Ross.
Kucherov did same.
OV won the Hart.
Kucherov did same.
OV won Rocket.
Kucherov only winger ever to record 100 assists.
OV won Cup and Con Smythe.
Kucherov won 2 Cups.
It's a coin toss at best.
No clear cut winner.
Kuch would get my vote.
But that's just me.

OV lead league Art Ross
Kucherov did same twice against McDavid
OV won the Hart (X3)
Kucherov did same (probably) twice against the best generation
OV won Rockets (X9)
Kucherov is the best playmaking winger in history
OV won Cup and Smythe
Kucherov won 2 Cups + 2 Finals + Best scorer in PO by far since 10 years
OV masterpiece done.
Kucherov still at its prime

Both of you guys are wrong.

Ovi had the better prime but it's not a huge gap like the first guy is suggesting.

Ovi in his prime had an excellent individual playoff resume even if his team's didn't advance.

Right now this is clearly Ovi but who knows if Kuch has another big playoff year and another couple of 100 point season the gap will begin to narrow even more.

When was the famous prime where Ovechkin had seasons with more than 120 points and had the best career in the play-offs with finals and championships ?

I have a hard time seeing Ovechkin Prime coming off a 144 point season. When he monopolized all of his team's offensive schemes, he didn't go over 112 despite shooting the net like an American policeman.

 

[Stammertime91]

Good for him, good for him, still a massive douche

Posts like this make us love Kucherov even more. The guy lives rent free in your head for that series against Montreal and his presser etched a nightmare in the minds of many Montreal fans. Seek help and let it go.



1. Ovechkin - will always be the undisputed because he's on the verge of catching the goal record.

2. Kucherov - not sure what case could be made for Malkin at this point when Kucherov is years younger and has plenty in the tank. If he drops off a cliff by 33-34, then sure, Malkin's longevity does it.
3. Malkin - and as much as a royal pain in the ass he has always been, he was/is a dominant player. If injuries didn't bother him, his totals would be even higher. Though, I think this year's peak for Kucherov puts him ahead of Malkin.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

Elite is top 100 in the league. He already had the level of Stamkos, even slightly above between 2014 and 2016. Stamkos was a very big player at the time.

Players' PPG hasn't increased that much. It's above all the level. We always come back to the season when Benn won the Art Ross. Jamie Benn could win the Art Ross. Today, the same player at his prime would be very far from 1st place.

Jaime Benn would be a 100 point player in todays NHL if he was in his prime. Look at JT Miller for crying out loud. And no, he did not have the level of Stamkos between 2014-16. Not sure why you’re saying that.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Love Kucherov but this is Ovechkin easy. Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin played their primes in a lower scoring, tougher, more violent era, with goalies that looked like the Michelin man.

McDavid/Kucherov/MacKinnon are fantastic talents but this current era is much easier for superstars. Can gallop around the ice untouched and the goalies have smaller pads. All three really took off with their gaudy numbers after the pad sizes were reduced in 17-18.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Is he going to break Gretzky's goalscoring record?

No?

Then never.

Crosby won’t either and he’s been/will be seen as being objectively better than Ovechkin.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Jaime Benn would be a 100 point player in todays NHL if he was in his prime. Look at JT Miller for crying out loud. And no, he did not have the level of Stamkos between 2014-16. Not sure why you’re saying that.

J.T Miller is very well surrounded and is an excellent quality player.

The fact is that Jamie Benn was the most productive player. I have a hard time seeing Benn prime competing with McDavid/Kucherov.

Besides, not so long ago, he was the current age of Kucherov/Miller and he was already very far from 100 points.

The level of elite players has increased significantly compared to the middle of the last decade. I have a hard time seeing how you can find players of the caliber of McDavid, McKinnon, Kucherov, Matthews... Jamie Benn was the best in the league and that explains what I was saying.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby won’t either and he’s been/will be seen as being objectively better than Ovechkin.

He wasn't.

I don't doubt that many Canadians and Pens fans will say it though - just as they are willing to claim - without a shred of evidence - that Crosby is great at defense.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Love Kucherov but this is Ovechkin easy. Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin played their primes in a lower scoring, tougher, more violent era, with goalies that looked like the Michelin man.

McDavid/Kucherov/MacKinnon are fantastic talents but this current era is much easier for superstars. Can gallop around the ice untouched and the goalies have smaller pads. All three really took off with their gaudy numbers after the pad sizes were reduced in 17-18.

It doesn't hold up. In 2017, Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin were supposed to be at their biological prime and they were already being outclassed by McDavid/Kucherov who were in their early 20s and have gotten stronger since.

You put McDavid in the league 10 years earlier and he explodes the slow defenders of the time.

From 2015-6, a lot of players were removed from the NHL because they were outclassed by the new generation.

So much so that we ended up with an extremely young league in 2020.

Lucic, Benn, Ovechkin, Giroux... saw their stats drop at a very early age. So if it was so easy to score 100 points in the McDavid era, the guys from the Crosby generation would have had a string of 100-point seasons between 2015 and 2020.

In 2016/7, you take away McDavid and you get a high of 89 points with Kane and Crosby in their prime. Except that a 19-year-old kid had a 100-point season and since then, other players of his generation have taken his place. Scheifele, Kucherov, Panarin, Draisaitl were already right behind.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

It doesn't hold up. In 2017, Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin were supposed to be at their biological prime and they were already being outclassed by McDavid/Kucherov who were in their early 20s and have gotten stronger since.

Crosby and Malkin led their teams to back to back cups in 2017, while Crosby won the Rocket.

 

[PaulD]

OV lead league Art Ross
Kucherov did same twice against McDavid
OV won the Hart (X3)
Kucherov did same (probably) twice against the best generation
OV won Rockets (X9)
Kucherov is the best playmaking winger in history
OV won Cup and Smythe
Kucherov won 2 Cups + 2 Finals + Best scorer in PO by far since 10 years
OV masterpiece done.
Kucherov still at its prime


When was the famous prime where Ovechkin had seasons with more than 120 points and had the best career in the play-offs with finals and championships ?

I have a hard time seeing Ovechkin Prime coming off a 144 point season. When he monopolized all of his team's offensive schemes, he didn't go over 112 despite shooting the net like an American policeman.

THIS

"monopolized all of his team's offensive schemes"
Well put.

 

[Randyne]

Holtby won a Vezina

I didn't add Vasilevsky/Fleury too.

 

[PaulD]

You have got to stop with this nonsense lol

I'm the second guy on this short thread to take Bure over the Great 8.
OV is a great sniper.
Better than Kucherov?.....no way.
Better than Bure? ......debatable.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

It doesn't hold up. In 2017, Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin were supposed to be at their biological prime and they were already being outclassed by McDavid/Kucherov who were in their early 20s and have gotten stronger since.

You put McDavid in the league 10 years earlier and he explodes the slow defenders of the time.

From 2015-6, a lot of players were removed from the NHL because they were outclassed by the new generation.

So much so that we ended up with an extremely young league in 2020.

Malkin lead the NHL in points per 60 in 16/17. And 17/18. And third in 19/20.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

J.T Miller is very well surrounded and is an excellent quality player.

The fact is that Jamie Benn was the most productive player. I have a hard time seeing Benn prime competing with McDavid/Kucherov.

Besides, not so long ago, he was the current age of Kucherov/Miller and he was already very far from 100 points.

The level of elite players has increased significantly compared to the middle of the last decade. I have a hard time seeing how you can find players of the caliber of McDavid, McKinnon, Kucherov, Matthews... Jamie Benn was the best in the league and that explains what I was saying.

The thing I can’t buy about this is we SAW Mackinnon and Kucherov play in the era where Malkin/Sid/OV dominated and they didn’t accomplish one superstar season between them. Then the goalie gear shrank in 17/18 and changed the entire scoring landscape where they exploded. I just don’t buy the “stars are better now” angle when we saw them before these changes were made.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Malkin lead the NHL in points per 60 in 16/17. And 17/18. And third in 19/20.

I don't really see the connection. Malkin had 100-point seasons in the years 2000-early 2010. He never did it after 2012.

Seems like it's easy to score 100 points since Kucherov scored 100 points. So why didn't Malkin and Ovechkin manage to score 100 points after 2012 and 2010 ?

The thing I can’t buy about this is we SAW Mackinnon and Kucherov play in the era where Malkin/Sid/OV dominated and they didn’t accomplish one superstar season between them. Then the goalie gear shrank in 17/18 and changed the entire scoring landscape where they exploded. I just don’t buy the “stars are better now” angle when we saw them before these changes were made.

Kucherov and McKinnon were rookies... It's been a long time since Kucherov became better than Ovechkin. Since 2016/7. And it wasn't a question of age since Ovechkin was only 31 years old.

It's like next year Kucherov will be challenged by a guy born in 2001.

The level of the players has increased.

If you take the talents country by country, you understand it very quickly. Russians, Finns, Swedes and Americans have much more talent than 10 years ago. Canadians produce several players like Crosby or close to him (McDavid, Bedard, McKenna, McKinnon).

The advantage of a very fast and very technical relay back has been fundamental for McKinnon's development. Makar brought much more than the rule change, which is the same for everyone.

Even so - why hasn't the older generation, aged only 30, seen their points explode ?

 

[KareemTrustfund]

I don't really see the connection. Malkin had 100-point seasons in the years 2000-early 2010. He never did it after 2012.

Seems like it's easy to score 100 points since Kucherov scored 100 points. So why didn't Malkin and Ovechkin manage to score 100 points after 2012 and 2010 ?



Kucherov and McKinnon were rookies... It's been a long time since Kucherov became better than Ovechkin. Since 2016/7. And it wasn't a question of age since Ovechkin was only 31 years old.

It's like next year Kucherov will be challenged by a guy born in 2001.

The level of the players has increased.

If you take the talents country by country, you understand it very quickly. Russians, Finns, Swedes and Americans have much more talent than 10 years ago. Canadians produce several players like Crosby or close to him (McDavid, Bedard, McKenna, McKinnon).

None of what you said is correct. Mackinnon was a rookie in 13/14 and didn’t have an elite year until 17/18, same with kucheov who was even older.

Not sure what you mean by Malkin not being elite since 2012. He lead the entire NHL in PP60 in 13/14, 16/17, 17/18, and third in 19/20, obviously pacing 100 points.

The Malkin’s and Crosby’s were superstars the minute they stepped on the ice. Kucherov wasn’t even close and couldn’t do it in the same era where they did. Kucherov was already 24 when he put his first true superstar year when they shrunk the gear. I just.. I don’t hold him in the same regard. Maybe if he pulls away in awards I could see it. But where was he before 24? The best of the best do it before then. No slight to Kucherov i still think he’s awesome and should get the Hart

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

None of what you said is correct. Mackinnon was a rookie in 13/14 and didn’t have an elite year until 17/18, same with kucheov who was even older.

Not sure what you mean by Malkin not being elite since 2012. He lead the entire NHL in PP60 in 13/14, 16/17, 17/18, and third in 19/20, obviously pacing 100 points.

The Malkin’s and Crosby’s were superstars the minute they stepped on the ice. Kucherov wasn’t even close and couldn’t do it in the same era where they did. Kucherov was already 24 when he put his first true superstar year when they shrunk the gear. I just.. I don’t hold him in the same regard. Maybe if he pulls away in awards I could see it. But where was he before 24? The best of the best do it before then. No slight to Kucherov i still think he’s awesome and should get the Hart

Nothing is correct because you don't understand anything correctly.

1. Obviously I was using a shocking formula to make you understand that Kucherov and McKinnon were only at the beginning of their NHL careers. So comparing them to guys who were already established was irrelevant. However, Kucherov and McKinnon took the lead before they reached 25 against guys who were still in their early 30s.

2. At no time did I say that Malkin was not elite after 2012. You really need to stop with your dishonesty. I repeat, Malkin didn't have a 100 point season after 2012. So if it was that easy to score 100 points when McDavid/Kucherov did it - guys like Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin in their early 30s would have had it also done.

3. As already mentioned, Kucherov was already a player of Stamkos' caliber in his 2nd season. Afterwards, there are players who perform immediately, others take more time. It's the same in all sports. In Soccer, Zidane exploded later than Ronaldo. In Tennis, Federer exploded later than Nadal. In Cycling, Vingegaard exploded later than Pogacar. In US Football, Brady was ultra-dominant only from the age of 30 while Manning exploded earlier, in Basketball Jokic took time to explode. In hockey, Saint-Louis became a star at 28 years old. And then explode at 20 only to regress at 25... is that better ?

 

[Fatass]

There is an assumption here that OV is the greatest ever Russian born player. IMO he’s not. Kucherov is a great player. There are other Russian players who were better though.
Is Kucherov better than ov. That’s close between those two. But there have been a lot of fabulous Russian born players.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

Nothing is correct because you don't understand anything correctly.

1. Obviously I was using a shocking formula to make you understand that Kucherov and McKinnon were only at the beginning of their NHL careers. So comparing them to guys who were already established was irrelevant. However, Kucherov and McKinnon took the lead before they reached 25 against guys who were still in their early 30s.

2. At no time did I say that Malkin was not elite after 2012. You really need to stop with your dishonesty. I repeat, Malkin didn't have a 100 point season after 2012. So if it was that easy to score 100 points when McDavid/Kucherov did it - guys like Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin in their early 30s would have had it also done.

3. As already mentioned, Kucherov was already a player of Stamkos' caliber in his 2nd season. Afterwards, there are players who perform immediately, others take more time. It's the same in all sports. In Soccer, Zidane exploded later than Ronaldo. In Tennis, Federer exploded later than Nadal. In Cycling, Vingegaard exploded later than Pogacar. In US Football, Brady was ultra-dominant only from the age of 30 while Manning exploded earlier, in Basketball Jokic took time to explode. In hockey, Saint-Louis became a star at 28 years old. And then explode at 20 only to regress at 25... is that better ?

Sigh..

1. Maybe it’s you misunderstanding. Obviously I’m comparing what they did in their early 20’s, not their current ages. And it’s a pretty stark difference. Who cares if Mack and Kuch were “only at the start of their careers”. That’s exactly my point actually.

2. And I showed you Malkin easily paced 100 in those later seasons and would have if not for injury. You were implying he hadn’t when you said he wouldn’t hit 100 even if he didn’t actually hit that number.

3 Kucherov was not on Stamkos level in his second year. At all. Sorry.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Sigh..

1. Maybe it’s you misunderstanding. Obviously I’m comparing what they did in their early 20’s, not their current ages. And it’s a pretty stark difference. Who cares if Mack and Kuch were “only at the start of their careers”. That’s exactly my point actually.

2. And I showed you Malkin easily paced 100 in those later seasons and would have if not for injury. You were implying he hadn’t when you said he wouldn’t hit 100 even if he didn’t actually hit that number.

3 Kucherov was not on Stamkos level in his second year. At all. Sorry.

1. It was poorly explained then. But hey, which players born from 2000 (U24) are superstars in the NHL today ? Kucherov and McKinnon became ones at 24, so what ? What does this demonstrate ? Kucherov reach his peak at 25-30 - Ovechkin at 22-24 and ?

2. You speak in the conditional. But he did not do it. Ovechkin even less, Crosby only twice in 14 years. So if it were that easy... With conditions (no injuries, no Covid), Kucherov could have scored you 7 in a row. And ?

3. Season 2014/15

Stamkos 82 games (43/29/+2) 26 games (7/11/+2)
Kucherov 82 games (29/36/+38) 26 games (10/12/+7)

Sorry.