What does Kucherov need to do to surpass Ovechkin and become the greatest Russian player to ever play in the NHL?

[Midnight Judges]

while Ovechkin simply rested while healthy (missing games due to suspension),

That is also false.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

That is utterly false. Ovechkin in his peak years was a possession monster as well as a physical monster. You don't end up top 4 in the NHL in hits by never playing any defense.

It is a well known fact and a big reason why Ovechkin has a poor rep in the defensive end of the ice, and why he will end his career as a minus player.

Then Malkin's defensive outcomes are even worse than I stated.

Again, provide actual evidence. Advanced stats would be the way to go, not this nonsense you keep repeating.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Again, provide actual evidence. Advanced stats would be the way to go, not this nonsense you keep repeating.

What, on-ice goals against?

As in, Malkin was on the ice while the other team was scoring? And this is not some small sample size but rather over an entire season's worth of games? -Which happens to be validated by an entire career's worth of games, all of which point to the exact same conclusion: Evgeny Malkin is an unremarkable defensive player who has always been deployed overwhelmingly for offense?

I'm not exactly gong out on a limb here.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

That is also false.

It’s true actually. Ovechkin was suspended two times during the 2009-10 season giving him a couple of games off not once, but twice, allowing him to rest while healthy both times. This is obviously preferable to being injured and inflated his points per game on the year.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It is a well known fact

Ah, an appeal to the masses. Must be bullet proof.

It’s true actually. Ovechkin was suspended two times during the 2009-10 season giving him a couple of games off not once, but twice, allowing him to rest while healthy both times. This is obviously preferable to being injured and inflated his points per game on the year.

Look dude if I post a video of Ovechkin getting injured and you reply to say he wasn't injured then I don't know what to tell you. 2009-2010 had the most significant injuries of Ovechkin's career.

-Not that any of that is relevant anyway. You are once again reaching.

 

[VistamarCroissants]

The best regular season by a Russian in the NHL was Fedorov in 94, winning the Hart over Gretzky.

The best postseason was Kucherov.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

What, on-ice goals against?

Yes, that nonsense does not adequately assess a player’s individual defensive impact.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Look dude if I post a video of Ovechkin getting injured and you reply to say he wasn't injured then I don't know what to tell you. 2009-2010 had the most significant injuries of Ovechkin's career.

You are intentionally being obtuse, again. The fact is that Ovechkin had not one but two stretches in 2009-10 of sitting out while healthy and taking a short rest during the regular season. It’s no surprise that when he jumped back into action, his points per game went up by year’s end with the added rest.

People get on Lemieux’s case for doing this in 1995-96 as well, when he took healthy games off to rest, and it’s a knock against the season he had that year. It’s no different with Ovechkin in 2009-10, even though he did not sit by choice.

 

[bobholly39]

The best regular season by a Russian in the NHL was Fedorov in 94, winning the Hart over Gretzky.

The best postseason was Kucherov.

Fedorov 94, Ovechkin 2008, Malkin 2012, Kucherov 2024 are the top 4 seasons for me, unless I'm forgetting an obvious one off the top of my head. Among the 4, I' think I'd rank them like this:

Kucherov 2024
Ovechkin 2008
Fedorov 1994
Malkin 2012

Few caveats:

1. It's hard to place Kucherov's 2024 historically right now. If 5 more players hit 140 points in the next 2 years, maybe it stands out a bit less. So, i'll have a better sense in-time, but for now I'm guessing it ends up #1. I thought it was an amazing season and expect it to hold up well.

2. To me, Fedorov 94 and Malkin 2012 are quite close. Ask me tomorrow, I may flip flop. I feel pretty good about Ovechkin and Kucherov above both.

3. If we're counting more than just one season per player, it's possible Kucherov 2019, and maybe another of Ovechkin's seasons factors in here for me too.

Lastly - Kucherov is the best playoff performer among Russians. His playoffs career I think has already surpassed Malkin. But for single post-season run? This is still Malkin 2009 - Kucherov probably lands at #2 and #3 though.

 

[bobholly39]

Did you purposely leave off the fact that Malkin played 75 games, while Ovechkin played 82 games?

Malkin's 2011-12 season prorated to 82 games and adjusted to the 2007-08 slightly higher scoring environment gives Malkin 122 points to Ovechkin's 112.

That is a 10 point gap in Malkin's favor in terms of offensive production.

Ovechkin was also worse defensively, particularly at their peaks. Ovechkin had a terrific season, but Malkin had an even better year.

If you're looking at who had the better season - you don't pro-rate games.

Maybe if you want to specifically ask who was the better player you can. But for better seasons - if you play less games, too bad.

Gretzky 1982 >> Lemieux 1993 for better season. 80 games to 60.
Better player? That's closer.

Better season - Ovechkin 2008 >> Crosby 2011
Better player? That's closer.

Ovi has 853 goals in the nhl. Kucherov has 873 in pts he has A LONG WAY TO GO

Yeah, of course. Very long way to go. But if we're looking at peak specifically - he's 100% giving him a run for his money already. Especially if you also include playoffs. That's 2 absolutely stellar seasons Kucherov has on his resume now.

 

[crowi]

Ovechkin will likely set the goal scoring record of all-time. Kucherov has to set a similar record, not just 100 assists by a winger-quality.

 

[Artemi Panarin]

Ovechkin will likely set the goal scoring record of all-time. Kucherov has to set a similar record, not just 100 assists by a winger-quality.

He will probably need at least 2 more seasons (maybe even 3) if the goal totals continue to regress at their current rate.

31 goals at the age of 38 is still incredible but I fear he will lose another step between now and the end of his career which could make it a longer wait.

 

[crowi]

He will probably need at least 2 more seasons (maybe even 3) if the goal totals continue to regress at their current rate.

31 goals at the age of 38 is still incredible but I fear he will lose another step between now and the end of his career which could make it a longer wait.

Agreed, it's going to be a close call. I still do believe he makes it.

 

[GoldenKnight]

If you're looking at who had the better season - you don't pro-rate games.

The initial post was about peak Malkin being "better" than peak Ovechkin, the Ovechkin fan then responded with talk of seasons. That said, I do think there is more nuance to it than that, Malkin playing 75 games in his peak season is a full season to me, and his adjusted points per game being sky high that year does have value. That differs largely from a half-season like we saw from Crosby in 2010-11, where the sample size was a bit too small to give Crosby full credit for the year he was having.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You are intentionally being obtuse, again. The fact is that Ovechkin had not one but two stretches in 2009-10 of sitting out while healthy and taking a short rest during the regular season. It’s no surprise that when he jumped back into action, his points per game went up by year’s end with the added rest.

People get on Lemieux’s case for doing this in 1995-96 as well, when he took healthy games off to rest, and it’s a knock against the season he had that year. It’s no different with Ovechkin in 2009-10, even though he did not sit by choice.

Dude.

He missed 10 games. He was suspended for 4. That means he missed 6 games with injuries - only 1 fewer than Malkin missed. This is some season-defining distinction to you?

The 2 games he missed for the Gleason knee on knee injured him anyway. He probably misses those games regardless.

 

[wetcoast]

Fedorov 94, Ovechkin 2008, Malkin 2012, Kucherov 2024 are the top 4 seasons for me, unless I'm forgetting an obvious one off the top of my head. Among the 4, I' think I'd rank them like this:

Kucherov 2024
Ovechkin 2008
Fedorov 1994
Malkin 2012

Few caveats:

1. It's hard to place Kucherov's 2024 historically right now. If 5 more players hit 140 points in the next 2 years, maybe it stands out a bit less. So, i'll have a better sense in-time, but for now I'm guessing it ends up #1. I thought it was an amazing season and expect it to hold up well.

2. To me, Fedorov 94 and Malkin 2012 are quite close. Ask me tomorrow, I may flip flop. I feel pretty good about Ovechkin and Kucherov above both.

3. If we're counting more than just one season per player, it's possible Kucherov 2019, and maybe another of Ovechkin's seasons factors in here for me too.

Lastly - Kucherov is the best playoff performer among Russians. His playoffs career I think has already surpassed Malkin. But for single post-season run? This is still Malkin 2009 - Kucherov probably lands at #2 and #3 though.

I think a strong case can be made for Fedorov as hanging the best Russian NHL season ever and I think he has a case of being a better playoff performer than Kuch or Malkin but all 3 are really close in that metric.

 

[Tim Calhoun]

Fedorov 94, Ovechkin 2008, Malkin 2012, Kucherov 2024 are the top 4 seasons for me, unless I'm forgetting an obvious one off the top of my head.

That Bure season where he scored all of the Panthers’ goals.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Kuch has an argument for higher peak, but Ovie has been so consistent for so long - I'm just not sure it's realistic to think Kuch can close the rather large gap.

 

[HolyHagelin]

It is a well known fact and a big reason why Ovechkin has a poor rep in the defensive end of the ice, and why he will end his career as a minus player.


Again, provide actual evidence. Advanced stats would be the way to go, not this nonsense you keep repeating.

You think he is going -66 the next two years?

 

[Nadal On Clay]

The best regular season by a Russian in the NHL was Fedorov in 94, winning the Hart over Gretzky.

The best postseason was Kucherov.

No, the best postseason by a Russian was Malkin in ‘09.

 

[wetcoast]

No, the best postseason by a Russian was Malkin in ‘09.

Ya it's hard to argue that as Malkins supporting cast and linemates both at ES and playoffs just don't match up to Kuch.

Datsyuk and Fedorov had 2 way playoff season that probably are close as well.

 

[Toby91ca]

Ovechkin will likely set the goal scoring record of all-time. Kucherov has to set a similar record, not just 100 assists by a winger-quality.

Why though? Seems completely arbitrary. I don't think Kucherov will end up being considered better than Ovechkin once both of their careers are over, but that's not really the point of the question. You think he has to break some record like all-time assists or points to get there? What if Kucherov scores 160+ points in each of the next 6 or 7 seasons and wins the Art Ross and Hart trophies in each of those years. I don't think that would give him any records, but I would think that would push him ahead of Ovechkin. It's not going to happen of course......

You think he is going -66 the next two years?

For clarity, I think it's unlikely ends up as a minus player on his career......unless he continues playing more seasons than I think he will, but why are you asking about -66?

 

[HolyHagelin]

Why though? Seems completely arbitrary. I don't think Kucherov will end up being considered better than Ovechkin once both of their careers are over, but that's not really the point of the question. You think he has to break some record like all-time assists or points to get there? What if Kucherov scores 160+ points in each of the next 6 or 7 seasons and wins the Art Ross and Hart trophies in each of those years. I don't think that would give him any records, but I would think that would push him ahead of Ovechkin. It's not going to happen of course......


For clarity, I think it's unlikely ends up as a minus player on his career......unless he continues playing more seasons than I think he will, but why are you asking about -66?

Because he is +65 for his career. If he is going to finish career negative he needs -66, and his contract is 2 more years

 

[Unspecified]

Nothing Kucherov does from this point until he retires will ever be enough to match Ovi.

 

[miscs75]

What about this guy? Ovi still hasn't surpassed Mr Universe.