What does Kucherov need to do to surpass Ovechkin and become the greatest Russian player to ever play in the NHL?

[T REX]

Very easy. We're using Ovechkin's career pace from his rookie season until the end of the 2022 season (age 20 to 36).

780 goals in 1,274 games = 50.2 goals per 82 games.

pace is an imaginary number

your stats are your stats

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

pace is an imaginary number

your stats are your stats

But those ARE his stats, those are games he actually played lol.

 

[Icebreakers]

Nothing. Ovechkin has the Jordan kind of aura on him. Everything in terms of marketability and likeability. Goals record ..etc. he could be on the same tier but not surpass. It's like asking what LeBron could do to surpass MJ. There's fanboys but he will never actually do it (realistically).

 

[Squiffy]

Not sure about the likability part. But greatest Russian is sewn up pretty good, Kush is in tough when the bar is breaking, or even coming close to, some Gretz record that was mostly thought untouchable.

 

[theMajor]

5 or 6 seasons like this one. Goals > Assists. 3 Harts and 5 nominations to 1 (potentially 2) and 2.

Those who say Kucherov is a more impactful player don't remember Ovy in his prime. He was a force of nature, scoring at will.

and his durability is freakishly high. i think thats whats forgotten most when people talk about Ovi. hes been scoring goals at a ridiculous rate without getting hurt (relative to NHL pros) for NINETEEN SEASONS !

 

[Norwegianoiler]

Nothing. Ovechkin has the Jordan kind of aura on him. Everything in terms of marketability and likeability. Goals record ..etc. he could be on the same tier but not surpass. It's like asking what LeBron could do to surpass MJ. There's fanboys but he will never actually do it (realistically).

Marketability perhaps, but Ovechkin's "likeability" has some strings attached and those strings are attached to a certain someone of absolutely no likeability.

Moreover (and a completely separate point), was Jordan ever that "likeable"? He was certainly a winner, but also arrogant and a bit of a bully. Now there are many who associate that positively, but you CAN absolutely be a winner and not carry those traits.

 

[GRob83]

Goals should count more than assists, I know they don't but they should. No one has ever combined goal scoring and physicality better than Ovechkin. He averaged 50 goals and well over 200 hits for most of his career. Kucherovs career high in goals is 44 and hits is 65. The kamikaze/suicidal style Ovechkin played until his mid-30's would have forced most players into retirement. Ovechkin would have broken Gretzkys goal record years ago if not for lock-outs and Covid shortened seasons.

 

[wetcoast]

Very easy. We're using Ovechkin's career pace from his rookie season until the end of the 2022 season (age 20 to 36).

780 goals in 1,274 games = 50.2 goals per 82 games.

That's great what is the per 82 pace Statline for Kuch? I'm on my phone otherwise I would post it and of course it's going to decrease sometime in the future but I bet his production is higher as far as coring goes right?

Not only counting stats but adjusted pace as well.

 

[Toby91ca]

But those ARE his stats, those are games he actually played lol.

His stats are as you showed, 1,274 games, 780 goals over 17 seasons....that's an average of 45.9 goals per season. Your 50.2 goals wasn't made up, it was per 82 games, but suggesting that is the average per season is made up pace.....which is what a lot of people lose their minds over when talking about other players.

That's great what is the per 82 pace Statline for Kuch? I'm on my phone otherwise I would post it and of course it's going to decrease sometime in the future but I bet his production is higher as far as coring goes right?

Not only counting stats but adjusted pace as well.

OV's career pace per 82 games is 49 goals and 89pts. Kucherov's is 36 goals and 99pts. That's kind of an irrelevant comparison for probably several reasons, but the main 2 being 1) Kucherov is halfway through his career and OV is near the end....Kucherov's 82 game pace is likely going to come down and 2) I haven't checked, but guessing Kucherov, on average, played in higher scoring years.....I do discount that argument a bit though.

Anyway, highly unlikely Kucherov will ever been seen as the best Russian player ever.

 

[wetcoast]

His stats are as you showed, 1,274 games, 780 goals over 17 seasons....that's an average of 45.9 goals per season. Your 50.2 goals wasn't made up, it was per 82 games, but suggesting that is the average per season is made up pace.....which is what a lot of people lose their minds over when talking about other players.

OV's career pace per 82 games is 49 goals and 89pts. Kucherov's is 36 goals and 99pts. That's kind of an irrelevant comparison for probably several reasons, but the main 2 being 1) Kucherov is halfway through his career and OV is near the end....Kucherov's 82 game pace is likely going to come down and 2) I haven't checked, but guessing Kucherov, on average, played in higher scoring years.....I do discount that argument a bit though.

Anyway, highly unlikely Kucherov will ever been seen as the best Russian player ever.

I know as you alluded to you in your first point people lose their mind when talking about pace and certain players yet ironically it was brought up here.

And sure Kuchs rate will go down overall if he plays till 36 but it will probably go up first and then come down again.

Still an extra 10 points per 82 and that playoff resume might make it interesting in 5 years or so.

 

[I am not exposed]

Stop winning the Art Ross apparently.

 

[SuperScript29]

pace is an imaginary number

your stats are your stats

That's not a pace though, it's his goal scoring average per career based on an 82 game season.

 

[Toby91ca]

That's not a pace though, it's his goal scoring average per career based on an 82 game season.

What? Seriously, what?

So, Player A....scores 80pts in 48 games...he's really, really good...that's a pace of 137pts. Yeah but that's fact, made up, he didn't actually score that much, that's just pace....

Player B scores 45 goals in 74 games, that's a 50 goals per an 82 game season.....it's not pace though, it's just a stat per 82 games.

 

[SuperScript29]

What? Seriously, what?

So, Player A....scores 80pts in 48 games...he's really, really good...that's a pace of 137pts. Yeah but that's fact, made up, he didn't actually score that much, that's just pace....

Player B scores 45 goals in 74 games, that's a 50 goals per an 82 game season.....it's not pace though, it's just a stat per 82 games.

Okay then, don't multiply by the 82 if it bothers you this much...

Regardless, I think only Wayne has a better goal scoring average than Ovechkin among players that played over 1000 games, and that difference among them is super tiny. Even among players that played less than 1000 games, the only ones that stand out are Lemieux and Bossy. So for Ovechkin to have that kind of average while played over 1400 games is absolutely remarkable, and to top it off, he did it in an era where scoring was lower than the generation that Wayne played in.

Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer of all-time, end of post.

 

[T REX]

That's not a pace though, it's his goal scoring average per career based on an 82 game season.

The second you say BASED ON...it becomes IMAGINARY.

This pace thing has gotten out of hand. It's only in hockey too. None of the other sports have this glaring problem.

Wow.

 

[wetcoast]

The second you say BASED ON...it becomes IMAGINARY.

This pace thing has gotten out of hand. It's only in hockey too. None of the other sports have this glaring problem.

Wow.

You, like many, are confusing pace with scoring rate per 82 games played.

Basketball has a scoring rate per game and baseball has a batting average as well but carry on and pretend that only certain stats matter.

 

[JLo217]

To answer the original question. To not give up when it doesn't go his way. He'll never be Ovi.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

His stats are as you showed, 1,274 games, 780 goals over 17 seasons....that's an average of 45.9 goals per season. Your 50.2 goals wasn't made up, it was per 82 games, but suggesting that is the average per season is made up pace.....which is what a lot of people lose their minds over when talking about other players.


OV's career pace per 82 games is 49 goals and 89pts. Kucherov's is 36 goals and 99pts. That's kind of an irrelevant comparison for probably several reasons, but the main 2 being 1) Kucherov is halfway through his career and OV is near the end....Kucherov's 82 game pace is likely going to come down and 2) I haven't checked, but guessing Kucherov, on average, played in higher scoring years.....I do discount that argument a bit though.

Anyway, highly unlikely Kucherov will ever been seen as the best Russian player ever.

That’s because the 2013, 2020 and 2021 seasons are shortened, and cannot be directly compared to others. He missed over 80 games from those 3 seasons, which is why looking at the production per 82 games makes the most sense.

It’s not a pace, it’s most similar to an average lap speed in a race.

 

[T REX]

You, like many, are confusing pace with scoring rate per 82 games played.

Basketball has a scoring rate per game and baseball has a batting average as well but carry on and pretend that only certain stats matter.

Those are advanced metrics. Not real stats. If you want to argue that advanced metrics are somehow different? Go right ahead.

But at the end of the day your point total is your point total. Goals scored is goals scored. The second anyone starts adjusting for whatever...I literally tune them out. Comparisons should be based on contemporaries only IMHO. Yeah, you can do efficiency rating and WAR and all of that but at the end of day...TGO is TGO. MJ is MJ. Tiger is Tiger. Babe is Babe. Brady is Brady.

Again, IMHO

 

[T REX]

That’s because the 2013, 2020 and 2021 seasons are shortened, and cannot be directly compared to others. He missed over 80 games from those 3 seasons, which is why looking at the production per 82 games makes the most sense.

It’s not a pace, it’s most similar to an average lap speed in a race.

per 82 is a fake number. I'll give Goals per game a look but that will look like a bell curve for most players with a long career.

Who cares what an average lap per race is? What trophy do they give out for that?

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

per 82 is a fake number. I'll give Goals per game a look but that will look like a bell curve for most players with a long career.

Who cares what an average lap per race is? What trophy do they give out for that?

It correlates to the fact that he’s hit 50 goals more times than anyone else in NHL history. Same thing for 40 or 30 goal seasons. Again, consistency.

 

[wetcoast]

Those are advanced metrics. Not real stats. If you want to argue that advanced metrics are somehow different? Go right ahead.

But at the end of the day your point total is your point total. Goals scored is goals scored. The second anyone starts adjusting for whatever...I literally tune them out. Comparisons should be based on contemporaries only IMHO. Yeah, you can do efficiency rating and WAR and all of that but at the end of day...TGO is TGO. MJ is MJ. Tiger is Tiger. Babe is Babe. Brady is Brady.

Again, IMHO

Once again pace and rate per 82 games are 2 entirely different things and the "stats are stats" argument is really weak otherwise Joe Malone is about 3 times the goal scorer Ovechkin was.

Context matters for everyone, otherwise arguments are based on really weak and incomplete foundations.

 

[Toby91ca]

It correlates to the fact that he’s hit 50 goals more times than anyone else in NHL history. Same thing for 40 or 30 goal seasons. Again, consistency.

Not true

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Not true

I think you and I live in different universes

 

[Bowski]

I think you and I live in different universes

Mike Gartner is your statistical god!