What does Kucherov need to do to surpass Ovechkin and become the greatest Russian player to ever play in the NHL?

[DFC]

I dont think there are any real arguments for Kucherov over Ovy. Like, he would have to get close to 2000 points to even open the conversation, and it's too late for that.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I dont think there are any real arguments for Kucherov over Ovy. Like, he would have to get close to 2000 points to even open the conversation, and it's too late for that.

Arguments of the 2000 points are bogus. Ovechkin will only have 1650 points and regular season points do not determine level but longevity in the league. And it is quite possible that Kucherov will not that far away. He will be well ahead in the play-off points. And the collective prize list is well ahead.

Play-Off is more important than Regular Season. At the slightest physical problem, a player leaves the regular season aside to be ready for the Play-Off. This is what Kucherov did in 2021.

Team

2X NHL Champion & 2X East Champion

vs

1X NHL Champion

Individual

2 Hart & 2 Art Ross & X2 Assist Leader

vs

3 Hart & 1 Art Ross & 1 Smythe & 9 Rockets


Stats points

Best PPG
Better +:-
Best top seasons (even correlated with the number of goals per game)
Best play-off masterpiece (maybe since Gretzky's gang... to check at the end of career)

vs

more goals

Game

Skills
Q.I
Skating
Playmaking

vs

Charge

 

[DFC]

Quite simply a better level of play. Faster, more technical, more intelligent, more collective, more playmaking, more precise shooting. All that remains is the body checking and shooting power for Ovechkin. That's not much.

Arguments of the 2000 points are bogus. Ovechkin will only have 1650 points and regular season points do not determine level but longevity in the league. And it is quite possible that Kucherov will not that far away. He will be well ahead in the play-off points. And the collective prize list is well ahead.

Play-Off is more important than Regular Season. At the slightest physical problem, a player leaves the regular season aside to be ready for the Play-Off. This is what Kucherov did in 2021.

You might be undervaluing Ovy inching up on Gretzky's goal record. The reason I say 2000 points (maybe 1800ish, more realistically), is Kucherov will need some sort of accomplishment to show longevity. I think it's out of reach, really. But he can be 2nd pretty soon.

 

[Donuts]

Wn vezina

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

You might be undervaluing Ovy inching up on Gretzky's goal record. The reason I say 2000 points (maybe 1800ish, more realistically), is Kucherov will need some sort of accomplishment to show longevity. I think it's out of reach, really. But he can be 2nd pretty soon.

If the goals are not worth more than a second assist it is because it has no more value. The scorer concludes a sequence of play. But those who provoke it have just as much merit.

900 goals in 13,000 attempts is not crazy. And Ovechkin's +/- will be ugly to see next to other great players.

Tampa with Kucherov on the ice will have scored more goals than Washington with Ovechkin.

Playmakers are more impactful in the game than shooters.

Matthews will beat Ovechkin's record unless a serious injury prevents him from doing so, and yet he is less strong than Kucherov.

 

[DFC]

If the goals are not worth more than a second assist it is because it has no more value. The scorer concludes a sequence of play. But those who provoke it have just as much merit.

900 goals in 13,000 attempts is not crazy. And Ovechkin's +/- will be ugly to see next to other great players.

Tampa with Kucherov on the ice will have scored more goals than Washington with Ovechkin.

Playmakers are more impactful in the game than shooters.

Matthews will beat Ovechkin's record unless a serious injury prevents him from doing so, and yet he is less strong than Kucherov.

Attempts dont matter. It's not about percentage. It's about goals.

Now I definitely think you're undervaluing Ovy getting close to Gretzky's goal record.

No disrespect to Matthew's, but the longevity required in chasing Ovy will be tough for him. He doesnt need to be injured to slow down. He just needs to turn 33, or 34, or whatever. Not everybody just refuses to slow down like Ovy did.

 

[Randyne]

If the goals are not worth more than a second assist it is because it has no more value. The scorer concludes a sequence of play. But those who provoke it have just as much merit.

So add to Ovechkin's totals about 100 points too. His the best secondary assistant is himself.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Attempts dont matter. It's not about percentage. It's about goals.

Now I definitely think you're undervaluing Ovy getting close to Gretzky's goal record.

No disrespect to Matthew's, but the longevity required in chasing Ovy will be tough for him. He doesnt need to be injured to slow down. He just needs to turn 33, or 34, or whatever. Not everybody just refuses to slow down like Ovy did.

Kucherov : Helping these teammates score 100 times is more than scoring 50 times. Efficiency matters a lot. You can spend an entire match taking 10 shots, you'll score more than if you only take 5. But if you only take 5 and allow your teammates to take the shots, they'll score more and your team can score more goals. The mission is for the team to win, not for you to end up with more goals than the others.

McDavid, Kucherov, McKinnon, Matthews will play in the NHL until they are 38-40 years old. This is very common among elite players.

In any case this year, Matthews has moved ahead and should increase his lead next year. His ceiling per season is much higher (70 vs 50)

So add to Ovechkin's totals about 100 points too. His the best secondary assistant is himself.

?!?

 

[Randyne]

?!?

what?

 

[DFC]

Kucherov : Helping these teammates score 100 times is more than scoring 50 times. Efficiency matters a lot. You can spend an entire match taking 10 shots, you'll score more than if you only take 5. But if you only take 5 and allow your teammates to take the shots, they'll score more and your team can score more goals. The mission is for the team to win, not for you to end up with more goals than the others.

McDavid, Kucherov, McKinnon, Matthews will play in the NHL until they are 38-40 years old. This is very common among elite players.

In any case this year, Matthews has moved ahead and should increase his lead next year. His ceiling per season is much higher (70 vs 50)


?!?

Lol look man, there are few people on these boards who are bigger Kucherov supporters than me. But this is crazy talk.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Arguments of the 2000 points are bogus. Ovechkin will only have 1650 points and regular season points do not determine level but longevity in the league. And it is quite possible that Kucherov will not that far away. He will be well ahead in the play-off points. And the collective prize list is well ahead.

Play-Off is more important than Regular Season. At the slightest physical problem, a player leaves the regular season aside to be ready for the Play-Off. This is what Kucherov did in 2021.

Team

2X NHL Champion & 2X East Champion

vs

1X NHL Champion

Individual

2 Hart & 2 Art Ross & X2 Assist Leader

vs

3 Hart & 1 Art Ross & 1 Smythe & 9 Rockets


Stats points

Best PPG
Better +:-
Best top seasons (even correlated with the number of goals per game)
Best play-off masterpiece (maybe since Gretzky's gang... to check at the end of career)

vs

more goals

Game

Skills
Q.I
Skating
Playmaking

vs

Charge

Eh, Playoffs are a hard give for Kucherov as he only won in the watered down COVID bubble seasons... in regular playoffs he hasn't been able to get it done.

Ovechkin might only have one run but that ended with a Conn Smythe something Kucherov will never have.

Not trying to hate on Kucherov but trying to put him in a McDavid/Ovi/Crosby tier is pushing it.

He more a Kane/Malkin level

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Make no mistake about it, history will absolutely record that Kucherov is missing a Conn Smythe.

The interesting thing is - if you add up the votes for the Conn Smythe in 2020 and 2021, Kucherov has more than any of his teammates. One could argue that he was the most valuable Lightning player during their back-to-back wins, even if he wasn't the most value in either playoff run on a standalone basis.

 

[Despote]

Eh, Playoffs are a hard give for Kucherov as he only won in the watered down COVID bubble seasons... in regular playoffs he hasn't been able to get it done.

Ovechkin might only have one run but that ended with a Conn Smythe something Kucherov will never have.

Not trying to hate on Kucherov but trying to put him in a McDavid/Ovi/Crosby tier is pushing it.

He more a Kane/Malkin level

Ovechkin isn't on McDavid/Crosby tier. He may have looked like it for a while, but he hasn't been remotely close to that standard after turning 25.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Lol look man, there are few people on these boards who are bigger Kucherov supporters than me. But this is crazy talk.

What's crazy? That 100 assists is much more impactful than 50 goals?

That Kucherov can play until 38-40 years old ?

The first fan to smash his idol

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Ovechkin isn't on McDavid/Crosby tier. He may have looked like it for a while, but he hasn't been remotely close to that standard after turning 25.

Eh to be fair Crosby isn't really on McDavids level either.

Ovechkin and Crosby definitely on same level though

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Eh, Playoffs are a hard give for Kucherov as he only won in the watered down COVID bubble seasons... in regular playoffs he hasn't been able to get it done.

Ovechkin might only have one run but that ended with a Conn Smythe something Kucherov will never have.

Not trying to hate on Kucherov but trying to put him in a McDavid/Ovi/Crosby tier is pushing it.

He more a Kane/Malkin level

So now Ovechkin has the level of Crosby and even more so McDavid...

We don't have the same assessment. For me Malkin is better than Ovechkin. Ovechkin is too limited in his game compared to the players you mention.

Eh to be fair Crosby isn't really on McDavids level either.

Ovechkin and Crosby definitely on same level though

No. Crosby is above in all areas of play.

 

[Planetov]

The interesting thing is - if you add up the votes for the Conn Smythe in 2020 and 2021, Kucherov has more than any of his teammates. One could argue that he was the most valuable Lightning player during their back-to-back wins, even if he wasn't the most value in either playoff run on a standalone basis.

I don’t disagree with any of this. Kucherov’s back-to-back 30+ point playoff runs are stuff of legends.

My tongue-in-cheek comment was in direct response to another poster. Context matters.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I don’t disagree with any of this. Kucherov’s back-to-back 30+ point playoff runs are stuff of legends.

My tongue-in-cheek comment was in direct response to another poster. Context matters.

Yes, totally agreed. The problem with the Conn Smythe is many people view it as an all-or-nothing award. That only tells part of the story.

For example, Denis Potvin was arguably the most valuable member of the Islanders. But he didn't finish 1st in Smythe voting in any playoff run. I suspect that he was consistently finishing 2nd/3rd, and he very well could have finished 1st overall (across the Islanders dynasty years). Surely he would have finished higher than Butch Goring and Billy Smith - but they have a Conn Smythe trophy each, and he has nothing.

Potvin, Kucherov, Fedorov, Forsberg, Pronger - all are examples of consistently excellent playoff performers who never won a Conn Smythe. It doesn't make them lesser players (or weaker playoff performers) than one-off winners like Justin Williams, Butch Goring, Cam Ward, Mike Vernon, Bill Ranford, etc.

 

[Planetov]

Kucherov : Helping these teammates score 100 times is more than scoring 50 times. Efficiency matters a lot. You can spend an entire match taking 10 shots, you'll score more than if you only take 5. But if you only take 5 and allow your teammates to take the shots, they'll score more and your team can score more goals. The mission is for the team to win, not for you to end up with more goals than the others.

You can’t just subtract 5 shots from 10, claim those 5 shots wouldn’t have be goals, and then claim that those 5 shots taken by other players will result in goals. This is just nonsense.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

You can’t just subtract 5 shots from 10, claim those 5 shots wouldn’t have be goals, and then claim that those 5 shots taken by other players will result in goals. This is just nonsense.

Look at the number of goals Tampa score with Kucherov.

Crazy statistic, Kucherov was on the record for 49.5% of his team's goals.

Even in seasons where he racked up the most attempts and monopolized the most, Ovechkin didn't reach such a rate.

Thanks to Kucherov's play, Tampa had 3 players with 40 or more goals. Impossible with Ovechkin's game.

 

[Randyne]

Look at the number of goals Tampa score with Kucherov.

288.
TBL scored 290 and 319 with lower performance from Kuch.
also:
Kuch missed 139 games. Which is a lot in such a short career.
TBL P% with Kuch =.639
TBL P% w/o Kuch =.673
So he is just playing on a very very good team, which plays even better without Kucherov.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

288.
TBL scored 290 and 319 with lower performance from Kuch.
also:
Kuch missed 139 games. Which is a lot in such a short career.
TBL P% with Kuch =.639
TBL P% w/o Kuch =.673
So he is just playing on a very very good team, which plays even better without Kucherov.

Completely made up and completely false statistics.

Kucherov is favored to win the Hart precisely because he is the one the team is most dependent on. Already in 2021, Tampa only finished 8th in the regular season without him to finish champion with him.

A 3 week absence and Tampa probably wouldn't be in the series.

It's better to be absent in the regular season than in the play-off. And in the play-offs, we saw Kucherov indefinitely more often than Ovechkin shine.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Looks like it could be another poor playoffs from Kucherov after a career high regular season

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Looks like it could be another poor playoffs from Kucherov after a career high regular season

How can he have 6 Conference Finals and 161 points if it's usual ? Who has done better in the Play-off for 10 years ?

 

[Fish on The Sand]

What Kucherov needs is longevity.

6 or 7 years close to this level and he could do it.


On the other hand, Kucherov should have had 2 conn-smythe trophies but voters don't like him

A case could be made for 2021, but Hedman was one of the easiest Connections Smythe winners ever in 2020.