Proposal: What Do You Think That MacT Can Get In Return For Hemsky And Horcoff?

[Replacement*]

I don't understand the people arguing this. Everyone knew MacT was a huge Horcoff fan - and who knows, maybe there was a GM somewhere who thought I wouldn't mind having him despite his salary, or an owner looking to reach the cap floor saw his contract and thought "sweet - $4M bonus, I might take that". Who knows.

Their value was not that high to begin with. And you can argue that there's not much he could have said to lower it any. But I don't think anyone can argue that he increased their value. Best case it did nothing to their value. Worst case, it let a GM who was maybe prepared to give a little something up for one of them decide that he could now give a little less.

I just don't see the upside of saying what he did about those players. Let the media and fans speculate.

Yep, its textbook playing your hand from a manager that has never done this job before.

It spells out green, new guy at work.

 

[Valic]

At first glance I thought the same thing (hence my Detroit for Bertuzzi suggestion), but upon further review the buyout makes the most sense. Why eat part of the contract AND take a poor one in return, screwing up your salary structure, when you can just use the compliance buyout and have an extra 5.5 mil in cap space for the next 2 years? Yes, the UFA market looks a little thin, but there are plenty of teams that need to get under the cap that will be shopping players for picks. Look at a team like Boston. They are at 60 million (though that should be 56 million after Savard's LTIR) and need to re-sign Rask and Horton, as well as round out their roster (2 depth F, 1 depth D, backup). One, if not both of Boychuk and Peverley will be made available. I'd much rather have one of those guys than another team's bad contract AND part of Horc's cap hit.

Simply put... Isn't it better to end up with a Mezaros, Briere, Kuba, Booth, Ballard, Upshall, Bergenhiem, Malone, or whoever in exchange for Horcoff, than having to give picks for players who might not even be better on our team? Boychuk wont be cheap. Tambellini already wasted our mid round pick and blew the best oppurtunity we had of late to load up by getting picks for Whitney, Khabi, and Jones.

Is it worse than buying them out and striking out on the FA market, or having to give too long of overpays as opposed to the 1-2 year bad contracts I suggest we target.

If we could guarantee Peverly for a song and get Horton/Bickell for a reasonable price then obviously we do it.

 

[Sethis]

If we're getting rid of Horcoff, I'd rather see a clean break by way of a compliance buyout and replace him with a FA center. Not worth us taking on some of his cap hit or a bad contract when we can just lose his cap hit entirely.

Hemsky is another story. He could probably net us a different top 6er with warts like himself. I'd like to see us swap him for Ryan Malone. He's paid 500K less but has an extra year. Best case scenario we got our policeman to play with the kids (play him with Nuge and Eberle), worst case scenario we use the second compliance on him next summer. Otherwise, dish him for a second at the draft if you can get it. This would be a good year to load up on picks (or, you know, trade them for Mike Brown).

As for MacT's comments, I don't have any issue with them. Other GMs aren't stupid, they see these things, their scouts see these things, and I'm sure they do a lot of intel before dealing away or acquiring a player. Horcoff and Hemsky are the two constants from some truly terrible teams spanning the entirety of the last CBA, minus the one year of the Pronger effect.

 

[PanniniClaus]

You apparently don't know much about hockey if you think Horcoff isn't capable of playing in the NHL anymore. He's vastly overpaid yes. But as a 2 million/year 3rd/4th line center that kills penalties, he's more than serviceable. It won't be some bottom barrel team that grabs him after he's bought out (which is what's going to end up happening, because his contract has negative value) it will be a team like Detroit, Pittsburgh or Montreal. And he will do well in those places.

We shall see how many more shifts he takes at the NHL level. Perhaps my judgement is clouded by the ridiculous contract.

 

[Mr Sakich]

Yep, its textbook playing your hand from a manager that has never done this job before.

It spells out green, new guy at work.

i am not sure if you know how nhl gm operate. They have numerous conversations without anything being made public.

mact isn't trying to sell a used car on kijiji. The people who are capable of being buyers already know more than what mact said on the radio.

i appluad mact's candor when it serves no purpose to be secretive.

 

[The Nuge]

We shall see how many more shifts he takes at the NHL level. Perhaps my judgement is clouded by the ridiculous contract.

It is. Horcoff is still a good bottom 6er

 

[SLURVE]

I would rather see the Oilers keep Horcoff. Here is why. He is being paid 4m and cap hit is 5.5m-he is not greatly overpaid the Oils are not in cap space trouble next year then why not keep a guy with leadership qualities in a desperately needed center position. We had trouble in on-ice team dynamics when Horc was injured for part of last year. He is our best faceoff guy. If his salary was 2.5m, otherwse keeping him will not be an issue.

 

[Hoogaar23]

I would rather see the Oilers keep Horcoff. Here is why. He is being paid 4m and cap hit is 5.5m-he is not greatly overpaid the Oils are not in cap space trouble next year then why not keep a guy with leadership qualities in a desperately needed center position. We had trouble in on-ice team dynamics when Horc was injured for part of last year. He is our best faceoff guy. If his salary was 2.5m, otherwse keeping him will not be an issue.

1) In my opinion his "leadership" sucks. Deflects everything, accepts no responsibility for anything. Doesn't lead by example, doesn't give even close to the effort that got him his monster deal.

2) Belanger was our best faceoff guy. Horcoff was under 50% for the 4th year in a row.

IMHO, it will be addition by subtraction. The team will officially be handed to Hall, Eberle and co.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Horcoff the player will always be tied to one of the worst contracts given out in NHL history. They cannot be separated. He's a serviceable veteran player who needs a fresh situation away from a boat anchor contract and grossly diminishing returns on his contributions albeit not his pocketbook.

The Oil gift that keeps giving - a team will get a renewed third/fourth line character player and by all reports a quality person - but I expect the Oil likely have to subsidize. This was no Diepietro contract but the Oilers grossly overpaid for a hard working depth player who was simply not good enough for the paycheck doled out.

Time for a new era to lead and the old, failed veteran group on a bad franchise to be placed on the first iceflow out of town. Even when that ticket must still be paid for them.

As captain and big ticket earner, Horcoff was the poster boy for an under performing team and losing culture.

 

[T-Funk]

Does anyone really believe that the second Horcoff sells his Edmonton home and submits his list of 10 teams that any GM in the league is unaware Horcoff is being shopped?

Horcoff submitting that list of teams would probably leak within 4 hours.

 

[s7ark]

i am not sure if you know how nhl gm operate. They have numerous conversations without anything being made public.

mact isn't trying to sell a used car on kijiji. The people who are capable of being buyers already know more than what mact said on the radio.

i appluad mact's candor when it serves no purpose to be secretive.

That's how I see it too. If MacT is telling us that Horcoff and Hemsky are available, then every GM already knew. Maybe he was trying to drum up some media speculation to see if the talk would influence some GMs and add more bidders?

I have been impressed by MacT so far. Obviously results matter most and we'll reevaluate when we've seen how the team he ices performs. But so far I am enjoying his style of open communication followed by decisive action much more than the infamous Tambo mantra of stay silent and do nothing.

As for the topic, being here as long as I have has taught me that I have no idea about real world NHL trade value. But I do know that it is rarely what HF thinks it is. So I can't comment on a possible return.

But I will comment on the situation. My speculation is that if Horc is insisting on 10 contenders, which are more than likely teams near the cap, he's looking at a buyout. Kinda a dick way to go out for a team that paid him way too much money and gave him far more opportunity than he deserved. But c'est la vie. Him being gone is the bigger issue.

And Hemsky, I still think there are GMs that would try him again. He showed this season that he can still put up points when healthy, that the shoulders appear to be fine(knock on wood) and that he can play through some pretty severe pain should the team need it. Playoff teams like players like that. Give him a bigger team so he doesn't need to go into the corners as often, and a D that can hit him in full stride going through the neutral zone, and I think he'll put up impressive numbers again. Some (hopefully Eastern) team's GM is going to look smart in a couple of years for the relative bargain he paid for Hemsky, even if the return is immediately panned on HF because it seems anything more than the Oilers sending the 7th with Hemsky to dump his contract is an overpayment around here.

 

[Paralyzer]

Can anyone tell me where these Horcoff and Hemsky being shopped/traded came from? I thought all Oiler fans said Horcoff will be an Oiler until his contract ends or we buy him out. Has HFOil going off the deep end again?

 

[s7ark]

Can anyone tell me where these Horcoff and Hemsky being shopped/traded came from? I thought all Oiler fans said Horcoff will be an Oiler until his contract ends or we buy him out. Has HFOil going off the deep end again?

MacT said it on the radio.

 

[thinlizzy]

If I were a player I would want Horc's agent. Anyone that can get a NMC and that much cash is a wizard.

 

[Tarus]

If I were a player I would want Horc's agent. Anyone that can get a NMC and that much cash is a wizard.

Given the Oilers are prone to handing out contracts people can't refuse, I'd say it has less to do with his agent, and more to do with business school dropouts who failed negotiations 101 that are running the Oilers.

 

[McBooya42]

Given the Oilers are prone to handing out contracts people can't refuse, I'd say it has less to do with his agent, and more to do with business school dropouts who failed negotiations 101 that are running the Oilers.

So what's Calgary's excuse?

Horc was also coming off an all star season before signing the contract - that may have had something to do with it...maybe.

 

[Section337]

If I were a player I would want Horc's agent. Anyone that can get a NMC and that much cash is a wizard.

Hopefully that agent can continue to work his magic, because I expect he's working on finding Horcoff a new team, via a trade as the first option, right now.

 

[M Ace]

I would be all for trading Hemsky for a Malone or a Booth. A player of similar durability that can be more physical when healthy.

Horcoff on the other hand I just don't see us getting enough value to warrant trading him. He isn't a bad option on the third line, the only problem is his salary. I would rather just keep him as a third line C and strip him of his captaincy than move him for a late pick or a player of similar salary that is less valuable. I don't know why we would move him just for the sake of moving him. If we could move him at full cap hit and then sign someone like Bozak at somewhat less I would be all over that though.

All these years following Horcoff and Hemsky I think they need to be gone. All this losing they've been through just contaminate the whole organisation. Once they are gone I think a new mentality will be inslated and we will start win again.

Wouldn't be bothered if both was just bought out so we can get rid of them and all that bad experience they've got.

Trade Value:

Horcoff - Maybe a late draft pick from a team like Phoenix

Hemsky - 2nd rounder at least (+ A prospect would be awesome)

 

[McBooya42]

All these years following Horcoff and Hemsky I think they need to be gone. All this losing they've been through just contaminate the whole organisation. Once they are gone I think a new mentality will be inslated and we will start win again.

Wouldn't be bothered if both was just bought out so we can get rid of them and all that bad experience they've got.

Trade Value:

Horcoff - Maybe a late draft pick from a team like Phoenix

Hemsky - 2nd rounder at least (+ A prospect would be awesome)

I have a serious feeling that we'll be getting NHL players back in return by taking on some of Horc's and Hemsky's salaries when trading them. Horc at 2.5 a year will be extremely enticing to a few teams - same with Hemsky.

 

[Top 6 Spaling]

Said it on the trade boards, curious what you think:

Gaustad for Hemsky. Goose a great bottom sixer, but god knows the Predators have 14321351 of those. Nick Spaling is a younger version of him, and most Preds fans are content to let him take that role. He would be a great veteran mentor to your young guys, filling the void left by Horcoff's eventual departure. Hemsky fits an obvious need here.

 

[McArthur]

An unproven bottom 6 player for hemsky.... And future considerations and half of horcoffs contract to any contender willing to take a risk.

 

[Samus44]

Said it on the trade boards, curious what you think:

Gaustad for Hemsky. Goose a great bottom sixer, but god knows the Predators have 14321351 of those. Nick Spaling is a younger version of him, and most Preds fans are content to let him take that role. He would be a great veteran mentor to your young guys, filling the void left by Horcoff's eventual departure. Hemsky fits an obvious need here.

I think Gaustad has an awful contract. 3.25 million for a 4th line center is ridiculous. I have no idea why the Preds love that guy so much that they gave up a 1st for him and that deal.

 

[zeus3007*]

If I were a player I would want Horc's agent. Anyone that can get a NMC and that much cash is a wizard.

I suggest everyone go back and look at Horcoff for the two or three seasons prior to the contract. All Star. Near ppg player. Near the top of the league in face off percentage. Good defensively. Great chemistry with out skilled players. His agent was not a wizard, he got a payday for a guy who played his butt off and earned a good contract...the shoulder injury killed any skill Horcoff had though, and his game quickly deteriorated. He is overpaid, but at the time it looked like Horcoff would be a first line center.

 

[BigFatCat999]

I think Gaustad has an awful contract. 3.25 million for a 4th line center is ridiculous. I have no idea why the Preds love that guy so much that they gave up a 1st for him and that deal.

Defensive face offs that's why the Preds love Gaustad. He was overpaid by Buffalo and the Preds have room for a couple of bad contracts.

Part of me wonders if there is value in a deal like this.

Hemsky + 2nd for Gaustad + SK Preds ate some salary

 

[Tarus]

So what's Calgary's excuse?

Horc was also coming off an all star season before signing the contract - that may have had something to do with it...maybe.

What does anything have to do with Calgary?

Horcoff's contract had less to do with half season hot streak, and more to do with Katz's grandstanding about not being cheap with the cash a month after gaining control of the franchise. They paid at the absolute peak of his value, when waiting a few months would have driven the contract costs down significantly(he had a year left, was coming off injury). Considering how much lower the cap was then, it was just an obscene overpayment, if he got the same contract today it'd be in the 6.5+ million range.

But the contracts thing is based on a pattern poor negotiations by the franchise(too much money, too long term, no understanding of RFA leverage etc), not just the Horcoff contract.