Player Discussion What do we have in J.T. Miller?

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The biggest problem here in Vancouver is that there is clearly no plan, no communication of the plan to the fans, no actions backing up what little we hear about plans, and that the plan seemingly changes every 4-6 months depending on whether it's November (our hard work is paying off we have a playoff team) , April (we are going to build through the draft just like we said...we're building the right way), or July (we think these guys will help us win in the playoffs).

Absolutely love what NYR has done in terms of plan, communication, and execution of their rebuild.

That's a rough situation where the narrative and plan changes every few months.


It’s a very selfish trade by Benning because if it doesn’t work out he’s not going to be here anymore to reap the consequences. If we miss the playoffs next year he’s surely fired and then whoever steps in will have no 1st which is a really ****ty situation.

The worst thing for an organization is having a GM that is looking over his shoulder and/or is in the final year of their contract. I am not aware of Benning's contract situation but if he is indeed worried about his job then that is a real dangerous spot. Their decisions will always be short term driven.
 
The balance fallacy is an informal logical fallacy that occurs when two sides of an argument are assumed to have equal or comparable value regardless of their respective merits, which (in turn) can lead to the conclusion that the answer to a problem is always to be found between two extremes.

Just a kind reminder if you want to use logic instead of react emotionally.

Why tag this to me? As someone who regularly debates politics I am very much aware of this fallacy and many others. Do you remind all the Benning haters of this as well? I suspect not. I have always known it as the argument to moderation or simply a false equivalency. Appreciate the lesson though. Why people think I am reacting emotionally is often because they are projecting their own emotional state. Have a real life conversation with me and you will soon realize I do not let my emotions get in the way of my thought process. But if someone tries to toss an appeal to emotion at me I am willing to trade barbs. The difference is I am not bothered by it at all. Want to stick to logic? That is my preferred medium and we can go all day long.

Now I have tried to respond to as many of these non hockey related gripes as I can. But I prefer to stick to the subject matter as best I can. Can we all please stick to hockey? If someone feels the need to correct my methods or my grammar lets do it through PM. Or better yet. Lets go for a beer and get to know me. At least then I won't have to react to all these emotional plea's. Often times badly exaggerated because text is a poor method to communicate with.
 
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Why tag this to me? As someone who regularly debates politics I am very much aware of this fallacy and many others. Do you remind all the Benning haters of this as well? I suspect not. I have always known it as the argument to moderation or simply a false equivalency. Appreciate the lesson though. Why people think I am reacting emotionally is often because they are projecting their own emotional state. Have a real life conversation with me and you will soon realize I do not let my emotions get in the way of my thought process. But if someone tries to toss an appeal to emotion at me I am willing to trade barbs. The difference is I am not bothered by it at all. Want to stick to logic? That is my preferred medium and we can go all day long.

Now I have tried to respond to as many of these non hockey related gripes as I can. But I prefer to stick to the subject matter as best I can. Can we all please stick to hockey? If someone feels the need to correct my methods or my grammar lets do it through PM. Or better yet. Lets go for a beer and get to know me. At least then I won't have to react to all these emotional plea's. Often times badly exaggerated because text is a poor method to communicate with.

I just try to add a perspective that often seems to be missed.

This part of your post made me feel like you might need to be reminded. Sorry if I missunderstood you.

Again, sorry for calling you emotional. I just find that the only logical reason someone would defend this trade is because the NEED it to be good, not because they evaluated the facts and came to the conclusion that it IS good.
 
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Before last season Miller has scored 22, 22 and 23 goals in his three prior seasons. Last year appears to be the outlier, probably due to Tampa’s depth at forward.

That user was probably looking at 10 goals last year with Tampa and 13 with the Rangers. 13 goals this year, that's how he got 3 seasons.
 
And here’s the thing, if the winger spot was sooooooooo weak, why do nothing in the past regular season to acquire such a similiar deal like at the time Higgins was acquired?

Well Benning did add Pearson, Leivo, and Skinner for scraps. Now with Miller in the mix, starting to get a vit of decent size in the top 9.
 
Well Benning did add Pearson, Leivo, and Skinner for scraps. Now with Miller in the mix, starting to get a vit of decent size in the top 9.
Skinner? Who is Skinner? Do you mean... Spooner? Spooner for Gagner was a downgrade. I also don't see where Spooner fits in the top 9 or even on the team. (Man, I wish we had Skinner)

Leivo was a decent deal. Pearson was for Gudbranson who was awful here, but also cost a hefty amount so I wouldn't classify the premium assets to acquire him as scraps. Still yeah.with Pearson and Miller we have some better size, and Miller seems like a good player acquisition. (price excluded)
 
Assume for the sake of argument that Benning signs Myers for 7x7 and Miller hits 50+ points. Let's also assume we make the playoffs and TB gets the 18th pick in the 2020 draft. Does this justify both the trade and the signing? Are they both still bad deals? A bit of both?

I feel that as long as we make the playoffs in the next 2 years both can be justified. What say you?

Why is the goal squeaking our way into the playoffs?

What happened to building a cup contender?

Amazing how much expectations have dropped under Benning.

Making the playoffs one year doesn't justify any of these moves. Just because we squeak into the playoffs doesn't mean hamstringing our cap with an albatross Myers contract for 7 years is a good move.

Could you imagine justifying the Loui singing because we hypothetically made the playoffs year 1 of his deal?
 
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Don’t mind the player. If he costs us a 2021 lottery pick he will be hated by the fan base which is unfortunate.

If come the 2021 draft, and Tampa has our lottery pick... the fans that would be aware of it being due to Miller’s acquisition would also know it wasn’t Miller’s fault.

But yes... we do know some people will be wired to not cut Miller much of a break unless cornered to do so by his play.
 
Thread by @mikeinthevalley: "I can't believe how one sided the feedback has been about the JT Miller trade. I think it has a lot to do with him not being a big name but […]"

So, this article is claiming Miller not being as big a name/well known in the league compared to guys like Drouin, Eberle, Gallagher is a part of the negative reaction here... but that if he was at that level of recognition this would be a lot more palatable.

Interesting comparables this guy made for Miller. Also compares some number to Pacioretty, Anders Lee... Do they hold up?
 
When he's on, Miller is a high-motor, decently-skilled Swiss Army Knife forward with a good shot who can play anywhere in your top-9 forwards and on special teams. Is a good puck retrieval guy and has enough hockey sense to work with more-skilled players effectively.

When he's off, he's a guy who can check out and appear completely disinterested for long stretches. And with NYR, had a reputation as The Bozo or The Idiot for his ability to take the sort of stupid penalties or make the sort of stupid turnover you'd be embarrassed to watch a pee-wee player make.

He's a decent target on an OK contract who if we'd paid a reasonable price for him would be a good acquisition.
 
When he's on, Miller is a high-motor, decently-skilled Swiss Army Knife forward with a good shot who can play anywhere in your top-9 forwards and on special teams. Is a good puck retrieval guy and has enough hockey sense to work with more-skilled players effectively.

When he's off, he's a guy who can check out and appear completely disinterested for long stretches. And with NYR, had a reputation as The Bozo or The Idiot for his ability to take the sort of stupid penalties or make the sort of stupid turnover you'd be embarrassed to watch a pee-wee player make.

He's a decent target on an OK contract who if we'd paid a reasonable price for him would be a good acquisition.
He’s the kind of player Gillis should’ve targeted. Too bad he’s the right player at the wrong time.
 
If you go through 1st round draft picks from the last 10 years or so, very few picks from 17 on down produce better than J.T. Miller. Most are not even close, so odds are the Canucks ended up with a better player with Miller than if they drafted at 18, 19, or even lower. That's assuming the Canucks make the play-offs in the next 2 years, which I think they will.
 
If come the 2021 draft, and Tampa has our lottery pick... the fans that would be aware of it being due to Miller’s acquisition would also know it wasn’t Miller’s fault.

But yes... we do know some people will be wired to not cut Miller much of a break unless cornered to do so by his play.
Regardless of where the draft pick lands the team has big marketing plans to offset the loss of the first in 2021
Tram will be returning.
Nhl ready Pod will be making his debut in his draft +3 season.
2020 1rd pick will make his debut in his draft +2 season.
If we make the playoffs in either year or fail to surrender a lottery pick in 2021 then its not the worse case scenario.
 
If you go through 1st round draft picks from the last 10 years or so, very few picks from 17 on down produce better than J.T. Miller. Most are not even close, so odds are the Canucks ended up with a better player with Miller than if they drafted at 18, 19, or even lower. That's assuming the Canucks make the play-offs in the next 2 years, which I think they will.

That does not in any way excuse the premise of this trade. How can other teams weaponize their cap space and get good players out of cap strapped teams for minimal cost but Jim Benning steps up to solves Tampa's salary cap woes while giving them a 1st and 3rd pick in the process?! Just no clue how to negotiate.
 
Why is the goal squeaking our way into the playoffs?

What happened to building a cup contender?

Amazing how much expectations have dropped under Benning.

Making the playoffs one year doesn't justify any of these moves. Just because we squeak into the playoffs doesn't mean hamstringing our cap with an albatross Myers contract for 7 years is a good move.

Could you imagine justifying the Loui singing because we hypothetically made the playoffs year 1 of his deal?

Yeah... Remember when Luongo and the Sedins got blasted by fans for chocking in the playoffs?

Buffalo passed us for the worst team over the last 4 years! By a single point.

I can no longer say we are THE WORST team over the last 4 seasons :(


But even being the 2nd worst team in the league over the past 4 years does wonders to expectations it seems.
 
That does not in any way excuse the premise of this trade. How can other teams weaponize their cap space and get good players out of cap strapped teams for minimal cost but Jim Benning steps up to solves Tampa's salary cap woes while giving them a 1st and 3rd pick in the process?! Just no clue how to negotiate.
What were other teams offering for Miller? Look at the outrageous contracts mediocre guys are getting. This is a good contract. There had to have been a lot of teams trying to get Miller.
 
Assume for the sake of argument that Benning signs Myers for 7x7 and Miller hits 50+ points. Let's also assume we make the playoffs and TB gets the 18th pick in the 2020 draft. Does this justify both the trade and the signing? Are they both still bad deals? A bit of both?

I feel that as long as we make the playoffs in the next 2 years both can be justified. What say you?

No, and no.

Myers is already declining, so signing him for 7 years is a non-starter. To me the goal is to maximize the window of EP/Boeser/Hughes and to a lesser extent Bo. Everything else and everybody on else on the team is a question mark.

Even if absolutely everything worked out with drafted prospects, and Tryamkin coming back, and Hughes meeting expectations, I think we're missing another puck-moving defenceman at minimum. In two years we'll be lucky if Juolevi/Woo could be 5-7 defencemen. Assume Edler/Tanev are hurt as usual or have been shipped out. That means your top-4 is Hughes-Tryamkin-Hutton-Stetcher. That's essentially the same defence that just finished a five year run of sucking, plus Hughes.

Would Myers help over the next two years? Probably, but only because our back-end is so thin that bringing in anyone better than Guddy (i.e. almost anyone) would be a positive change. But is Hughes-Myers-Hutton-Stetcher that much better?

Myer's decline is a known quantity already. I don't think this team can be a real CUP contender in two years, so any help from Miller/Myers to basically just squeeze into the playoffs is wasted - because in two years is when we'll have to start paying EP, bridge or long term Hughes, deal with Edler again, and maybe pay Demko depending where he is then. Will we want a hobbled Myers with 5 years remaining @ $7M then?

Forwards are in much better shape. Because of that context I think you can justify ADDING Miller. But then again, adding Miller isn't the issue, adding him at the cost we did is. Actually, if we had taken Marleau and paid with that 1st then it wouldn't have been an issue either. He is relatively cost controlled as well, although I would have liked to see his contract end a year early. In my opinion I want to have as much flexibility I can at the 2-4 year mark from today so I can keep the EP window open as long as possible, and even an extra year at $5M from Miller might hurt you there, even if he does produce well in the next two years.

Also, any draft picks we trade are possible cheap mid/bottom 6 players who we need to complement our top players. That first round pick, even as a mid 1st in 2021 could possibly add another d-man or a cost-controlled player who we will need after we pay EP.

Also, moves could be made to mitigate these issues like picking up some extra picks to replace what we lost, but why shoot yourself in the foot in the first place?
 
The worst thing for an organization is having a GM that is looking over his shoulder and/or is in the final year of their contract. I am not aware of Benning's contract situation but if he is indeed worried about his job then that is a real dangerous spot. Their decisions will always be short term driven.

Yeah but who’s fault is it really? Everybody wants this management team replaced, but I want a new owner. I honestly don’t see a better situation unless the team is sold.
 
Good to see some healthy discussion on newest Canuck....JT Miller

Looks like he wont be wearing #10
 
Why is the goal squeaking our way into the playoffs?

What happened to building a cup contender?

Amazing how much expectations have dropped under Benning.

Making the playoffs one year doesn't justify any of these moves. Just because we squeak into the playoffs doesn't mean hamstringing our cap with an albatross Myers contract for 7 years is a good move.

Could you imagine justifying the Loui singing because we hypothetically made the playoffs year 1 of his deal?

It's funny how making the playoffs now (something 50% of the league does every single year) is seen as some sort of accomplishment. Just squeaking into the playoffs as a wild card seed and getting destroyed in the first round isn't a sign of anything more than a team in perpetual mediocrity.
 
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It's funny how making the playoffs now (something 50% of the league does every single year) is seen as some sort of accomplishment. Just squeaking into the playoffs as a wild card seed and getting destroyed in the first round isn't a sign of anything more than a team in perpetual mediocrity.

yet assembling a core that can do that is hard.
 
What were other teams offering for Miller? Look at the outrageous contracts mediocre guys are getting. This is a good contract. There had to have been a lot of teams trying to get Miller.
I literally spat out my coffee when the trade was announced..I hated giving up a 1st,but what is a 26 year old JT miller (and his cost controlled contract) worth..?...I would say a 1st round pick....Probably not a top 10 pick, though.

I don't hate this trade as much as I did on Saturday...Tyler Myers though.,...thats a different story.
 
One perk of having him on Pettersson’s line is that he can step in and take faceoffs for EP if he’s still struggling with them.
 
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