Player Discussion What do we have in J.T. Miller?

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Assume for the sake of argument that Benning signs Myers for 7x7 and Miller hits 50+ points. Let's also assume we make the playoffs and TB gets the 18th pick in the 2020 draft. Does this justify both the trade and the signing? Are they both still bad deals? A bit of both?

I feel that as long as we make the playoffs in the next 2 years both can be justified. What say you?
 
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Assume for the sake of argument that Benning signs Myers for 7x7 and Miller hits 50+ points. Let's also assume we make the playoffs and TB gets the 18th pick in the 2020 draft. Does this justify both the trade and the signing? Are they both still bad deals? A bit of both?

Yes to your first question. No to your second.
 
Assume for the sake of argument that Benning signs Myers for 7x7 and Miller hits 50+ points. Let's also assume we make the playoffs and TB gets the 18th pick in the 2020 draft. Does this justify both the trade and the signing? Are they both still bad deals? A bit of both?

I feel that as long as we make the playoffs in the next 2 years both can be justified. What say you?

Nothing would justify a 7x7 deal for Myers. 30 points while being sheltered is a good year for Myers; paying him like a 2D for this is in no way justified.
 
Or our 1st is an asset that could have been much better spent fixing our lousy defense instead of acquiring a complementary middle 6 winger. And now it’s gone and our defense is still a mess.

Not everyone who doesn’t like the trade wants to rebuild forever.
Other than Hughes, who is a puck moving D man we have? I think JB was talking to teams about puck moving, point producing D men (Philly and Colorado for sure) but those teams were wanting one of our young core players in return. So JB went to plan B, which was using our coming first. I just don’t get why he used that first for a winger?
 
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I remember him being good but he hasn't scored anything close to 20 goals for three seasons. I'll take out the injury shortened one - we traded a 1st for a guy who has scored 13 goals per year.

Actually he reminds me of where Higgins was when we got him, except we only gave away a 3rd and Oberg.

There were so many other ways we could have pulled this off, and gotten this player without expending a 1st round pick. As usual other teams magically managed to do what was apparently impossible for us, at the same time and on the same playing field.

Higgins was a rental that they initially got for 14 games + playoffs. Huge difference.

He also was averaging about 30 points / 82 over the last few seasons.

Ever notice how when a team trades for someone who is not under contract or has one year left (Troiba, Karlsson,) everyone can't believe how cheap they were to acquire, but when a team trades for a player who carries cost certainty, people freak out about the "overpayment?"

Teams. Don't. Trade. For. Players. They. Trade. For. Contracts.
 
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I like the Miller-Horvat-Pearson combo best by far. Pettersson already has an elite winger on his line in Boeser. Horvat currently doesn't have a genuine top-6 forward on his line. Miller would give him that.
I am hoping for this combo as well. It is time to solidify something for Bo and the second line.
 
I remember him being good but he hasn't scored anything close to 20 goals for three seasons. I'll take out the injury shortened one - we traded a 1st for a guy who has scored 13 goals per year.

Before last season Miller has scored 22, 22 and 23 goals in his three prior seasons. Last year appears to be the outlier, probably due to Tampa’s depth at forward.
 
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I remember him being good but he hasn't scored anything close to 20 goals for three seasons. I'll take out the injury shortened one - we traded a 1st for a guy who has scored 13 goals per year.

He scored 13 goals last season, 23 in 17/18, 22 in 16/17, and 22 in 15/16. I think you’re looking at his stats and getting confused because he was traded in 17/18 so it looks like two separate seasons on the stat sheet.
 
Lightning fan chiming in. Miller is a Swiss Army knife that can play all 3 forward positions very effectively, can PK is good on the PP and does a little bit of everything well. Put him down for 20 goals 40-50ish points if you put him in the top 6. It depends if he gets hurt

Unfortunately the Bozo reputation is well earned. I don't remember the precise circumstances but he once started a fight just before we scored a goal or were about to (something involving Point I remember that) I wanna say it was game 6 of the ECF. Another time he took the absolute worst shot imaginable when he needed to pass on an odd man break (I think it was actually a 2 on 0) and it f***ed the whole thing up so bad and everyone was screaming into their hands. This was also in the playoffs. As long as guys like Pettersson and Boeser are asked to play the hero in the playoffs you're okay because he's frustrating in the postseason. But the guy is still young and has all his best years ahead. There's time to turn it around and I think this trade is actually gonna keep the fire lit under his ass. When he does that he doesn't make mistakes

TL;DR: he reminds me of Eberle.... When he's on he's great you just gotta keep him focused all year. Enjoy the 60-80 goals he's liable to score over the next 4 years
 
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Produced almost 50 pts on Tampa's bottom 6
Should be able to hit 60 if playing with Bo or EP with PP1 times

That's pretty close. I don't know about 60 points (simply because he hasn't done it yet) but put him with Bo, Boeser, Pettersson, PP1 and something like 23 goals and 56 points is reasonable to predict.


He did A LOT for a bottom 6 player in Tampa
 
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I don't think Canafan and I have any issue with each other. I enjoyed our conversation. For the most part it was very civil. Started a bit rough but overall a great chat. Would love to take the guy for a beer. Seems like an intelligent well versed individual. Then again you might have extra insight to how Canafan was feeling.

How on earth did I attack you personally? Dude, just stop. This is becoming nonsensical.
I felt you were getting off track so I made the comment to get you back on track and you've responded positively.
I understand theres no taking this trade back and we must move forward trying to make the best of it since we have no choice .
I've been reading comments on the main boards and tampa board and they overwhelmingly think we got fleeced so the feeling that we nuck fans got took advantage of because of a meddling owner are desperate to get so playoff cash before were ready is real and not imagined or easily dismissed.
Miller was drafted 15oa and hes worth about that right now as a help immediately player.
I expect we'll be improved next year but so will the other teams in the west and we're not even a bubble team but perhaps we will be next year.
I hope we make the playoffs and not making them is not fun.
I feel we may get bit in the butt because the owner is pushing the team to make the playoffs before we're ready and now theres a ticking time bomb under us now.
Is there reason for optimism yes is there room and reason for pessimism yes.
I enjoy rational discussion on these boards and if everything was rainbows and unicorns as you seem to make things to be then there would be no reason to discus the nucks .
There will be discussion about this trade for years as fans will track the rise of the 1st while watching miller decline similar to NJD watching Horvat rise while Schneider declines.
 
If only we could have kept our pick and stayed in perpetual rebuild mode like the Oilers. Miller is a good player and based off the contracts being handed out he is on a good contract for the remainder of his prime years. If the Canucks can make the playoffs in only 1 of the next 2 years then this is a good trade. If not it could certainly bite us in the ass. Most likely it is a middling 1st rounder that would take 2~3 years to develop. Meaning it will be 3 or 5 years before the pick makes any significant impact. If at all. It is a risk but at some point you have to go for it.

As long as Hughes becomes close to the player we expect and Pettersson does not stagnate and become a 60 point player moving forward we should have a good chance at the playoffs in the next 2 years. Especially considering that a couple of the teams around us are regressing and just beginning rebuilds themselves I think the chances of playoff hockey in the next 2 years is quite good. One can certainly disagree with that but if we miss the next 2 years it means our core has stagnated or regressed. I just don't see it. Our best players are only going to improve over the next 2 seasons.

But as always. The sky is falling. This is such a neurotic fan base.

I guess we shoud accept that every time Benning makes a move it costs Canucks 50% more than the rest od the league.
 
Higgins was a rental that they initially got for 14 games + playoffs. Huge difference.

He also was averaging about 30 points / 82 over the last few seasons.

Ever notice how when a team trades for someone who is not under contract or has one year left (Troiba, Karlsson,) everyone can't believe how cheap they were to acquire, but when a team trades for a player who carries cost certainty, people freak out about the "overpayment?"

Teams. Don't. Trade. For. Players. They. Trade. For. Contracts.

:clap: :clap: :clap:
 
Higgins was a rental that they initially got for 14 games + playoffs. Huge difference.

He also was averaging about 30 points / 82 over the last few seasons.

Ever notice how when a team trades for someone who is not under contract or has one year left (Troiba, Karlsson,) everyone can't believe how cheap they were to acquire, but when a team trades for a player who carries cost certainty, people freak out about the "overpayment?"

Teams. Don't. Trade. For. Players. They. Trade. For. Contracts.
True but also notice that Gillis tended to re-sign those rentals so the guys he targeted he had the very real intention of keeping him in the lineup the following season. I think Roy & Paulson were the rare examples he let go (for good reasons heh) when the season ended (edit: granted given his age & mileage, Sammy was probably a pure rental).

And here’s the thing, if the winger spot was sooooooooo weak, why do nothing in the past regular season to acquire such a similiar deal like at the time Higgins was acquired?
 
What is inexcusable is that TB was a team in clear cap trouble. They had to move Miller to sign Point. Totally poor GM and negotiating skills to give a desperate team a 1st round pick while solving their cap problems.

DOH Jim this is not what they they mean when they say weaponize your cap space!

Yes I question this trade and a huge risk!

I would use him on a 3rd line and not in top 6 based on facts below.

1. He is often confused and lose the puck in most questionable manners (often in own D zone.)
2. At times obvious frustrated, because he struggle to finish simple plays.

Well some strengths; great hockey player experience from both Rangers and Tampa Bay and played with some very good players like Zucc, Stepan, Stamkos, Kucherov.
And he is a physical player and enjoy using his body.
 
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I see him getting maybe 20 goals and probably close to 50 pts while playing top 6 mins. All we can do is pray he finds chemistry with Bo or Elias. Basically a more useful Sven Baertschi.


Ranger fan stopping by to just share my thoughts on Miller. I didn't watch a ton of him while he was with Tampa the last year but I watched every game he played for the Rangers (Reg Season and Playoff).

The above post is very accurate in my opinion in regards to a reasonable expectation of Miller from a production standpoint.

I've always liked Miller as a player. I didn't agree with us swapping him for Namestikov within the McDonagh trade. Miller was a very polarizing figure within the Ranger fan base. Miller and Kevin Hayes had a similar developmental time line with the Rangers. They seemed to track parallel to each other in regards to joining the team and evolving into important players for us. They also had similar growing pains in regards to maturity. They both seemed to grow up while they were with the Rangers and learned what they had to do to be NHL pro's. Living through those maturity issues as a fan wasn't easy at times. Especially with Miller. Ideally, you won't have to live through those maturity issues since you are getting a heading into his prime, several years of NHL experience under his belt player that has hopefully learned from past mistakes.

If I was to describe Miller as a player it would be a tremendously confident player in his ability which at times puts him in positions to do some unwise things. When Miller is on one of his hot streaks and things are clicking for him, you will watch him and wonder how he isn't a perennial 65-70 point player. He has every physical tool you would want in a player. Tremendous vision of the ice, strong on the puck, sneaky good shot and toughness when needed. You can actually sense his confidence on the ice with some of the things he tries to do. He plays somewhat cocky but in a good way. That attitude however leads to some poor decisions, at some critical moments as well.

I think one of the things that made him such a polarizing figure within the Ranger fan base was that you could see his tremendous potential. Which led to a level of frustration that it wasn't more consistent. He would kind of disappear for stretches and you would wonder how it was possible with his skill set. Kreider had/has a similar issue. Where you would wonder how this player isn't noticeable for periods of time considering how talented he is. I always thought of Miller as a player that should be a 1st liner but could never quite get there. I think Vancouver is a really good fit for him. I hope he flourishes with you guys and realizes his full potential.

In regards to his contract value. I think he is a really good value at 5.25 for 4 years. Even if he doesn't realize his full potential, if he just stays at his current level that he was when he was with the Rangers, that is a solid contract in comparison to what other players who are comparable to him are getting paid.

In regards to his lack of playoff goals. I simply don't have a good answer for this. I'm really not sure. I wouldn't say he was a bad playoff performer at all, he had a bit of Rick Nash disease when it came to scoring goals in the playoffs. Unfortunately, some of the unwise decisions I detailed above would take place at some not ideal times in the playoffs.

Hopefully the above gave you some insight into the player you just got from someone who has watched a lot of his career. In summary, I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised in what Miller brings to your team. Good luck!
 
Ranger fan stopping by to just share my thoughts on Miller. I didn't watch a ton of him while he was with Tampa the last year but I watched every game he played for the Rangers (Reg Season and Playoff).

The above post is very accurate in my opinion in regards to a reasonable expectation of Miller from a production standpoint.

I've always liked Miller as a player. I didn't agree with us swapping him for Namestikov within the McDonagh trade. Miller was a very polarizing figure within the Ranger fan base. Miller and Kevin Hayes had a similar developmental time line with the Rangers. They seemed to track parallel to each other in regards to joining the team and evolving into important players for us. They also had similar growing pains in regards to maturity. They both seemed to grow up while they were with the Rangers and learned what they had to do to be NHL pro's. Living through those maturity issues as a fan wasn't easy at times. Especially with Miller. Ideally, you won't have to live through those maturity issues since you are getting a heading into his prime, several years of NHL experience under his belt player that has hopefully learned from past mistakes.

If I was to describe Miller as a player it would be a tremendously confident player in his ability which at times puts him in positions to do some unwise things. When Miller is on one of his hot streaks and things are clicking for him, you will watch him and wonder how he isn't a perennial 65-70 point player. He has every physical tool you would want in a player. Tremendous vision of the ice, strong on the puck, sneaky good shot and toughness when needed. You can actually sense his confidence on the ice with some of the things he tries to do. He plays somewhat cocky but in a good way. That attitude however leads to some poor decisions, at some critical moments as well.

I think one of the things that made him such a polarizing figure within the Ranger fan base was that you could see his tremendous potential. Which led to a level of frustration that it wasn't more consistent. He would kind of disappear for stretches and you would wonder how it was possible with his skill set. Kreider had/has a similar issue. Where you would wonder how this player isn't noticeable for periods of time considering how talented he is. I always thought of Miller as a player that should be a 1st liner but could never quite get there. I think Vancouver is a really good fit for him. I hope he flourishes with you guys and realizes his full potential.

In regards to his contract value. I think he is a really good value at 5.25 for 4 years. Even if he doesn't realize his full potential, if he just stays at his current level that he was when he was with the Rangers, that is a solid contract in comparison to what other players who are comparable to him are getting paid.

In regards to his lack of playoff goals. I simply don't have a good answer for this. I'm really not sure. I wouldn't say he was a bad playoff performer at all, he had a bit of Rick Nash disease when it came to scoring goals in the playoffs. Unfortunately, some of the unwise decisions I detailed above would take place at some not ideal times in the playoffs.

Hopefully the above gave you some insight into the player you just got from someone who has watched a lot of his career. In summary, I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised in what Miller brings to your team. Good luck!

Love insights and observations like these from long time viewers. Much appreciated!

From what I've seen and read up on this trade over the past two days, the 1st feels a bit steep. But at the same time I don't actually see this calibre of player available for much less considering what Tampa paid to acquire him and Mcdonagh originally, even if Tampa wanted to get out from his contract due to cap issues.

This isn't a player that screams straight dump like Marleau, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that other teams were interested in the contract.
 
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Absolutely. People are welcome to rage all they want. I am not here to stop them. I just try to add a perspective that often seems to be missed. This is not a bad trade. Full stop. In the future it may be but as of today we are a better team for it. I will be as condescending as I like if you are allowed to play the non stop bitter pill. You deal with me and I deal with the likes of you. Seems pretty fair.

The balance fallacy is an informal logical fallacy that occurs when two sides of an argument are assumed to have equal or comparable value regardless of their respective merits, which (in turn) can lead to the conclusion that the answer to a problem is always to be found between two extremes.

Just a kind reminder if you want to use logic instead of react emotionally.
 
Ranger fan stopping by to just share my thoughts on Miller. I didn't watch a ton of him while he was with Tampa the last year but I watched every game he played for the Rangers (Reg Season and Playoff).

The above post is very accurate in my opinion in regards to a reasonable expectation of Miller from a production standpoint.

I've always liked Miller as a player. I didn't agree with us swapping him for Namestikov within the McDonagh trade. Miller was a very polarizing figure within the Ranger fan base. Miller and Kevin Hayes had a similar developmental time line with the Rangers. They seemed to track parallel to each other in regards to joining the team and evolving into important players for us. They also had similar growing pains in regards to maturity. They both seemed to grow up while they were with the Rangers and learned what they had to do to be NHL pro's. Living through those maturity issues as a fan wasn't easy at times. Especially with Miller. Ideally, you won't have to live through those maturity issues since you are getting a heading into his prime, several years of NHL experience under his belt player that has hopefully learned from past mistakes.

If I was to describe Miller as a player it would be a tremendously confident player in his ability which at times puts him in positions to do some unwise things. When Miller is on one of his hot streaks and things are clicking for him, you will watch him and wonder how he isn't a perennial 65-70 point player. He has every physical tool you would want in a player. Tremendous vision of the ice, strong on the puck, sneaky good shot and toughness when needed. You can actually sense his confidence on the ice with some of the things he tries to do. He plays somewhat cocky but in a good way. That attitude however leads to some poor decisions, at some critical moments as well.

I think one of the things that made him such a polarizing figure within the Ranger fan base was that you could see his tremendous potential. Which led to a level of frustration that it wasn't more consistent. He would kind of disappear for stretches and you would wonder how it was possible with his skill set. Kreider had/has a similar issue. Where you would wonder how this player isn't noticeable for periods of time considering how talented he is. I always thought of Miller as a player that should be a 1st liner but could never quite get there. I think Vancouver is a really good fit for him. I hope he flourishes with you guys and realizes his full potential.

In regards to his contract value. I think he is a really good value at 5.25 for 4 years. Even if he doesn't realize his full potential, if he just stays at his current level that he was when he was with the Rangers, that is a solid contract in comparison to what other players who are comparable to him are getting paid.

In regards to his lack of playoff goals. I simply don't have a good answer for this. I'm really not sure. I wouldn't say he was a bad playoff performer at all, he had a bit of Rick Nash disease when it came to scoring goals in the playoffs. Unfortunately, some of the unwise decisions I detailed above would take place at some not ideal times in the playoffs.

Hopefully the above gave you some insight into the player you just got from someone who has watched a lot of his career. In summary, I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised in what Miller brings to your team. Good luck!


Wonderful post!

I think you might be misunderstanding the poor response hf Van is having to this trade. Its not so much that we dont like the player.
The thing is Vancouver as a team is at shambles. Benning refused to commit to a rebuild and the result is the worst 5 year stretch of any team in the history of the league while spending to the cap and having a pick deficit.

If we were a team last year that got to the playoffs. Different story, still a rich deal considering all variables, but would make sense.

Now this reeks of desperation by a GM afraid to lose his job because NO GM in the history of the league has survived 5 years straight missing the playoffs. Im not sure any have survived 4.

I dont think Ill be surprised by JT that much. I expect he will be a serviceable middle 6er with hot stretches and head scratchy moments.
 
Wonderful post!

I think you might be misunderstanding the poor response hf Van is having to this trade. Its not so much that we dont like the player.
The thing is Vancouver as a team is at shambles. Benning refused to commit to a rebuild and the result is the worst 5 year stretch of any team in the history of the league while spending to the cap and having a pick deficit.

If we were a team last year that got to the playoffs. Different story, still a rich deal considering all variables, but would make sense.

Now this reeks of desperation by a GM afraid to lose his job because NO GM in the history of the league has survived 5 years straight missing the playoffs. Im not sure any have survived 4.

I dont think Ill be surprised by JT that much. I expect he will be a serviceable middle 6er with hot stretches and head scratchy moments.

I appreciate the kind words. I know when we acquire a player how much I would like the opinion of someone who has watched them instead of just relying on metrics and stats to build expectations of the new asset.

I can completely sympathize with your frustration. Pre-salary cap Rangers were afflicted with a similar disease. We missed the playoffs several years in a row while spending more than any team in the league. Short sighted, ill advised UFA signings were the norm. Lack of patience and development in regards to our young players kept us in a perpetual treading water state. Not bad enough to get an impact player in the draft but not good enough to be a serious competitor or even make the playoffs. We were in this very frustrating limbo that seemed like it would never end. The lockout and introduction of the salary cap ended up being the thing that shifted us (kicking and screaming) in regards to how we built our teams. We are still not immune to the shiny new toy UFA signing every off season. Old habits die hard.

I think it ultimately comes down to an organization being committed to a plan. The hardest part of a rebuild is knowing when it needs to evolve to the next step. Some teams find themselves in a perpetual rebuild state. If the GM is making self preservation deals that run against the ultimate team plan then that is a dangerous path.
 
I think it ultimately comes down to an organization being committed to a plan.

The biggest problem here in Vancouver is that there is clearly no plan, no communication of the plan to the fans, no actions backing up what little we hear about plans, and that the plan seemingly changes every 4-6 months depending on whether it's November (our hard work is paying off we have a playoff team) , April (we are going to build through the draft just like we said...we're building the right way), or July (we think these guys will help us win in the playoffs).

Absolutely love what NYR has done in terms of plan, communication, and execution of their rebuild.
 
He reminds me of Kristian Huselius, a streaky player who averaged about 50-60 points a year and had a couple of very high years of production when playing with elite players.

We’ll see how he turns out here. At the very least, he gives us a legitimate top 6 option. A lot also depends on how Pearson rebounds.
 
It’s a very selfish trade by Benning because if it doesn’t work out he’s not going to be here anymore to reap the consequences. If we miss the playoffs next year he’s surely fired and then whoever steps in will have no 1st which is a really shitty situation.
 
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