Player Discussion What do we have in J.T. Miller?

[PavelBure10]

At first when the trade first happened I wasn't impressed with the first rounder involved. Although it's still a young season, I actually don't mind the trade anymore. Miller has been playing spectacular hockey, and has gelled well with our top 2 centers. Miller has some great net presence for our stars, tipping or deflecting pucks like a madman. I will wait until the end of the season before I start blasting the trade, but thus far Miller is on pace for a career year, and is looking like a excellent pickup.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I'm pretty sure there were other teams involved as well I doubt he could have gotten him at a cheaper price

Seems weird.

We've been unable to get any 1st rounders for 5 years.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Seems weird.

We've been unable to get any 1st rounders for 5 years.

Except the 1st round pick acquired in the Kesler trade just over 4 years ago. Also, other than that, we haven't traded any players close to Miller's value. Presumably you realize this.

 

[deckercky]

Seems weird.

We've been unable to get any 1st rounders for 5 years.

What players of Miller's quality, factoring in term and value cap hit, have been traded in the NHL over the past 5 years?

 

[DonnyNucker]

Except the 1st round pick acquired in the Kesler trade just over 4 years ago. Also, other than that, we haven't traded any players close to Miller's value. Presumably you realize this.

Crazy talk. You mean to tell me bieksa, garrison, burrows etc weren’t worth first round picks??? The Canucks roster was full of young all stars that needed to be moved

 

[MS]

Except the 1st round pick acquired in the Kesler trade just over 4 years ago. Also, other than that, we haven't traded any players close to Miller's value. Presumably you realize this.

The Kesler trade was 5 1/2 years ago in June 2014.

 

[bandwagonesque]

The Kesler trade was 5 1/2 years ago in June 2014.

Right you are, misread it.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Seems weird.

We've been unable to get any 1st rounders for 5 years.

Because we can didn’t trade say any quality players, Hamhuis was the closest one and even that was a stretch

 

[I am toxic]

Because we can didn’t trade say any quality players, Hamhuis was the closest one and even that was a stretch

When did we trade Hamhuis?

 

[Luck 6]

But this wasn’t the asking price. Tampa asked for more and after negotiations the teams settled on this price. Fair or not fair, the idea that there wasn’t a negotiation is preposterous

Do you have evidence of this? In many cases players are assigned a price tag, the first team who pays it gets the player. You can of course submit different offer, which can lead to a negotiation.

Negotiation or not, Vancouver paid a high enough price to get the deal done right away. And, I’m glad we did, that point remains.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Sure looks like Tampa made a huge pro scouting blunder by keeping Yanni Gourde over JT Miller.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Sure looks like Tampa made a huge pro scouting blunder by keeping Yanni Gourde over JT Miller.

How do you figure?

I like Miller and like the trade for us - but Gourde is a very good player as well.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Do you have evidence of this? In many cases players are assigned a price tag, the first team who pays it gets the player. You can of course submit different offer, which can lead to a negotiation.

Negotiation or not, Vancouver paid a high enough price to get the deal done right away. And, I’m glad we did, that point remains.

Yes. We know multiple teams were bidding and benning himself said that the asking price was higher just a few days ago. I’ll take his word for it

 

[Luck 6]

Yes. We know multiple teams were bidding and benning himself said that the asking price was higher just a few days ago. I’ll take his word for it

Okay, sure. So multiple teams were bidding with lower offers, and Benning paid what needed to be paid to get the deal across the line. It’s a pretty common negotiating tactic, I still think this illustrates my original point.

Anyways, I think we’re both somewhat speculating at this point and going off on a bit of a tangent.

 

[F A N]

Of course.. People didn't know we were going to sign Myers, Hughes was going to exceed expectations, both goalies continued to play well, JT Miller was going to click, and the bottom six was going to play well above their career averages..

There's a lot of variables currently padding the trade's scale so to speak. Let's wait until the All Star break at very least. Then the end of the season.

Everything couldn't look better at this point, but sticking a fork in it right now would be like going right for the cow on the farm.

You snooze you lose. Teams don't typically win being conservative and reactionary. While YOU don't know the bolded, the Canucks may have other information. Regardless, when you have Horvat and Petey, it doesn't take a genius to conclude that you need to find wingers to play with them. We went through that with the Sedins until Burrows unexpectedly became their best linemate. JT Miller is a very good player. He's an established talent. Ya nobody knew whether he would click with either Petey or Bo but is that relevant? We saw Eriksson click with the Sedins before we signed him didn't we?

So now YOU are arguing wait and see? Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with that. What I was responding to was the disbelief that people are defending the trade. Given how well the trade has worked out thus far how can someone not believe that there are people defending the trade?

 

[F A N]

The value debate is interesting.. ..you can't just simplify the equation to what you posted.

Because that pick can get you a player that's unattainable through other means. Albeit unlikely, because of this, one has to have more value than these odds. Add in the player is cost controlled and the value increases.

While I don't disagree that people over value picks on here, I think 1st rounders have value. The odds you posted are kinda inaccurate. Here's an article with a complete break-down.

What is an NHL First-Round Pick Worth? - The 4th Line Podcast

It is an interesting discussion and a lot of it is probably execution. If you do case studies it's pretty much proven that you can't build a team by trading your first round picks for established players. The best way to acquire your core players is through the draft. At the same time if you just draft and develop and not make other big moves to supplement your roster you're likely wasting the prime years of your core players. The most important thing is to have the core players in place that are young enough for the team to retool with the same core. If you don't have the core players in place it's hard to ever win the Cup. But if you do have the core players in place it's likely not prudent to be conservative and wait for help from within.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

What players of Miller's quality, factoring in term and value cap hit, have been traded in the NHL over the past 5 years?

What other ~50p players have been traded? From cap crunch teams to boot?

 

[mathonwy]

You guys are hilarious when you judge a transaction without putting in any context.

JT Miller is a direct result of the EP40 effect just like Alex Burrows was a direct result of the Sedins effect.

We got our replacement Hank now. Our center depth is solidified. Any body that was already a decent winger will be that much better having EP40 feeding them.

You can get better the easier way or you can get better the hard way. Bo got better the hard way. I don’t begrudge Canuck management for trading our future for JT Miller if it makes EP40’s life today easier and more productive. Hockey is a 3 person line and my feelings aside of how ownership has butchered the essence of Canucks hockey, are we not entitled to entertaining hockey again?

It is what it is. EP40 is a growing boy and needs to eat (score) to get better and we should utilize our current resources as best as we can to facilitate that.

 

[bandwagonesque]

What other ~50p players have been traded? From cap crunch teams to boot?

This isn't really what anyone is talking about. You seemed to suggest that the Canucks ought to have acquired 1st round picks of late since the Miller trade is apparently evidence that it isn't difficult. Can you be more specific? Which players do you think we ought to have traded?

Also, I doubt the fact that Tampa was against the cap depressed the value of the team's actual assets much. It certainly makes it harder to dump useless cap, but a good player on a good long-term deal will still attract multiple bidders, as it did in this case.

 

[mathonwy]

Crazy talk. You mean to tell me bieksa, garrison, burrows etc weren’t worth first round picks??? The Canucks roster was full of young all stars that needed to be moved

Actually.

The team was full of jaded and disillusioned competent veterans who, based on their play in 14-15, still had plenty of gas available but who’s value had deteriorated to nothing due to piss poor leadership by a meddling owner.

Organizational toxicity is a value destroyer.

 

[deckercky]

What other ~50p players have been traded? From cap crunch teams to boot?

What players in their mid to late 20s with a strong history of scoring between 50-60 pts, and with term remaining on their contracts at below market rate have been traded over the past 5 years?

 

[Motte and Bailey]

How do you figure?

I like Miller and like the trade for us - but Gourde is a very good player as well.

Lightning board is lamenting keeping Gourde right now. A lot of them had problems with Miller’s usage and those fans are being vindicated right now - Miller is playing way better than Gourde right now and with equal deployment/opportunities Miller seems to be far and away the better player between the two.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Actually.

The team was full of jaded and disillusioned competent veterans who, based on their play in 14-15, still had plenty of gas available but who’s value had deteriorated to nothing due to piss poor leadership by a meddling owner.

Organizational toxicity is a value destroyer.

This is too vague and speculative to mean anything. You're looking for ways to justify a fixed point of view rather than constructing a point of view based on the available evidence.

 

[VanJack]

What do we have in J.T. Miller? A legit top six forward in his mid-20's on a cost-controlled contract, who can move up and down the lineup and a guy who'll score 50-60 points a year without blinking.

And if the Canucks make the top-6 in the Western Conference this year or are a wildcard team, then the first rounder is somewhere in the 18-24 range. And if there's a player the Canucks really like in that range during the 2020 draft, then they can still defer it to 2021, although it wouldn't be lottery protected.

If that scenario plays out, then it's a solid deal for Jimbo and the Canucks.

 

[mathonwy]

This is too vague and speculative to mean anything. You're looking for ways to justify a fixed point of view rather than constructing a point of view based on the available evidence.

Probably not but if this is what you think then power to you.