News Article: What did the Senators get out of trading EK65

[BatherSeason]

Hey .... You are absolutely right about that ! Paying “captains” like EK, Towes, Tavares etc $11.5+ for years as their hair turns grey might be a cozy idea for the fans that bought a $200 jersey 4 years ago but does nothing to ice a competitive franchise.

You know, it is ok to admit that this trade worked out for us without having to drag the player through the mud to try to prove a point. Yes, right now the trade looks good. Lets see if the players we acquired actually amount to something. Lets also see if Melnyk/Dorion pony up for BT so we dont need to have another seemingly endless debate.

Doug Wilson is prob kicking himself for giving up the first round pick, but I am sure he isn't losing much sleep over the rest of the return.

 

[SensFactor]

I would be interested in seeing the historical analysis where it shows trades where a big name player is traded for multiple picks and prospects. How often does the team getting the multiple picks and prospects win the trade? The more recent wins for Ottawa in this scenario are the Yashin trade and Karlsson trade.

 

[Sweatred]

You know, it is ok to admit that this trade worked out for us without having to drag the player through the mud to try to prove a point. Yes, right now the trade looks good. Lets see if the players we acquired actually amount to something. Lets also see if Melnyk/Dorion pony up for BT so we dont need to have another seemingly endless debate.

Doug Wilson is prob kicking himself for giving up the first round pick, but I am sure he isn't losing much sleep over the rest of the return.

The problem is 99.9% of the Ontario media and 1000's of fans view not signing guys like EK as a black mark on the organization and use it to spin the negativity around team. On his forum alone there was 4000 posts screaming about how bad a deal that was when in reality it was an excellent deal. It isn't healthy to have that much unwarranted negativity around the team. The fan base needs to realign their thought process when it comes to investing in players There are way more Bobby Ryans and EK type players out there riding out expensive retirement contracts and piling up scores of negative value each year with teams struggling to pay players off their ELC's or management.

Belleville costs the Sens about $2 million in payroll. That a lot of developmental value and only half the salary of fringe guys like Arti and White.

 

[Silencio]

I would be interested in seeing the historical analysis where it shows trades where a big name player is traded for multiple picks and prospects. How often does the team getting the multiple picks and prospects win the trade? The more recent wins for Ottawa in this scenario are the Yashin trade and Karlsson trade.

Colorado with the Duchene trade(s)?

 

[bashbros32]

I would be interested in seeing the historical analysis where it shows trades where a big name player is traded for multiple picks and prospects. How often does the team getting the multiple picks and prospects win the trade? The more recent wins for Ottawa in this scenario are the Yashin trade and Karlsson trade.

It's been said multiple times in this thread but I'll say it again, lets wait till some of the pieces play meaningfull NHL time before we declare ottawa winners of this trade. For all we know the year off has revitalized ek and he returns to former glory. He could also completely crash and burn. Same with the return we got, tierney is replaceable, demelo is gone, the rest have yet to play a full season of NHL hockey. Stuetzle could be draisaitl, or he could be Daigle for all we know.

 

[Silencio]

Yep the group of stars and hero types that sucked and couldn't make the playoffs. They had crap results and moving on was needed money or not the unknown if 8th or last would be the results each year was just poor results.
Hell Stone and EK would have this team 4 million over cap without Brady getting a raise without Stutz on the books, the salary structure of the NHL needs to change.

Getting off topic here, but the weird thing about sports salaries is that with some exceptions i.e. the Chabot deal, big athletic contracts are typically based more on past performance than future potential. Which makes sense if you're hiring for, say, a CEO role where age has very little if anything to do with making a company profitable, but makes far less sense when you're talking about athletes whose abilities inevitably decline with age.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

The problem is 99.9% of the Ontario media and 1000's of fans view not signing guys like EK as a black mark on the organization and use it to spin the negativity around team. On his forum alone there was 4000 posts screaming about how bad a deal that was when in reality it was an excellent deal. It isn't healthy to have that much unwarranted negativity around the team. The fan base needs to realign their thought process when it comes to investing in players

Sorry man but the black mark left on the organization stems from an unstable owner and an overzealous GM.

You can't appease every single fan but if you give the fans a legitimate reason to complain they will.

 

[hmc1987]

But in two years when the Depth of the team is strong that $11.5 would be more and more of a boat anchor.

EK, Vlasic, and Burns sure didn’t make them competitive...

San Jose took their shot and missed. I dont hold that against them. They made the deals they needed to make for Vlasic, Burns, JT, Logan, and EK with hopes of winning it all. They were close for years, even lost in the finals against prime Crosbys.

No shame in that. It will be a gradual rebuild as their farm system is mostly shot. Its a great hockey city though and theyll have success in the future.

 

[hmc1987]

You can’t have overpaid retirement contracts that compensate for our weather, taxes, and culture and have competitive teams. Brady and Stutzle didn’t grow up dreaming of playing hockey in Ottawa, when they get a chance they will probably leave unless we pay them enough to give up their dreams.

Whats wrong with Ottawas weather and culture? Always seemed like a nice place from the outside

 

[Sweatred]

Whats wrong with Ottawas weather and culture? Always seemed like a nice place from the outside

Nice place to live with a family and a 9/5 job... Not a destination that 20year multi millionaires are eager to buy into and call home.

 

[BigRig4]

You can’t have overpaid retirement contracts that compensate for our weather, taxes, and culture and have competitive teams. Brady and Stutzle didn’t grow up dreaming of playing hockey in Ottawa, when they get a chance they will probably leave unless we pay them enough to give up their dreams.

I think we've seen when star players grow up here for the first ~8 years of their career and build a family here they want to stay. Many still live here in the offseason.

 

[Xspyrit]

We'll never know the exact reasons why Karlsson isn't here anymore. Maybe he truly dislike Melnyk. Maybe the Sens didn't think he would be worth his new AAV long term considering his injury history. In the end, it's probably several factors and it happened.

We shouldn't be surprised at all the confusion through the medias regarding what happened. The Sens and Karlsson weren't going to tell us the "pure truth" : "yeah we are going to trade him, he's not going to be worth his new contract" or "I hate Melnyk, Alfie does too, don't want to play here anymore".

You know, it is ok to admit that this trade worked out for us without having to drag the player through the mud to try to prove a point. Yes, right now the trade looks good. Lets see if the players we acquired actually amount to something. Lets also see if Melnyk/Dorion pony up for BT so we dont need to have another seemingly endless debate.

Doug Wilson is prob kicking himself for giving up the first round pick, but I am sure he isn't losing much sleep over the rest of the return.

Sure, Tim Stuetzle should be the absolute best piece of the return but the rest is pretty damn good too (age is at the time of the trade)

Josh Norris (19 y/o) : 19th OA pick in 2017, has developped into a top prospect

Rudolf Balcers (21 y/o) : 51 GP for Ottawa, 17 Pts, solid prospect, would most likely be a NHLer already if it wasn't for his injury last year

Chris Tierney (24 y/o) : 152 GP for Ottawa, 85 Pts, 17:06 TOI/GP, decent 3rd line Center who has been played above due to lack of better options

Dylan Demelo (25 y/o) : 126 GP for Ottawa, 32 Pts, 19:32 TOI/GP, + 4.7 CF% rel

Mads Sogaard : used the Panthers 2nd round pick and a 3rd (Pitt's 83rd OA) to move up. A swing for the fences, Sogaard could be elite if he booms

Leevi Meriläinen : drafted with Winnipeg's 3rd round pick acquired for DeMelo. They must be very high on the kid for where they took him, so another swing for the fences

Sharks 2nd round pick in 2021 : if the Sharks bomb another season, another high 2nd round pick.

I mean, even without Stuetzle, this has the potential to be a pretty good return.

A 1st/2nd line Center, 3rd line Center, 2nd/3rd line Winger, 2 goalies with great potential, another 2nd

 

[BatherSeason]

Nice place to live with a family and a 9/5 job... Not a destination that 20year multi millionaires are eager to buy into and call home.

Dadonov did. So did Chabot, White.

 

[Xspyrit]

News Article: - What did the Senators get out of trading EK65

I said on October 8th :

"if Dorion was criticized heavily for giving up a "lottery pick" in the Duchene trade, he needs to be praised the same way for getting one in the Karlsson trade. It's about staying consistent with criticism"

As we can see, it still hasn't changed much as we can still read posts of how lucky Dorion was... As I said, you have to be consistent with your criticism. If you criticized Dorion for "gift wrapping" a lottery pick to Colorado, then you have to praise him for getting one from the Sharks...

And even more IMO because Stuetzle > Byram

If you lamblasted Dorion, then it's even worse because you should kneel before him

I would be interested in seeing the historical analysis where it shows trades where a big name player is traded for multiple picks and prospects. How often does the team getting the multiple picks and prospects win the trade? The more recent wins for Ottawa in this scenario are the Yashin trade and Karlsson trade.

Actually, I think it's pretty standard that the team getting the "best player" wins in the short term but the team getting the futures win in the long term. Not only the team has young cheap players contributing, but they are also not paying a big salary to a player that has largely regressed. It might not happen when the futures don't pan out or if the player stay worthy of his contract for a long period.

Unfortunately for the Sharks here, they didn't "win" for very long. It's like a Heatley 2.0 but even worse

Sure, most thought the Sharks were "big winners" in the Heatley trade but it didn't take long before Michalek was more useful to a hockey team for almost half of the salary.

 

[umma gumma]

Nice place to live with a family and a 9/5 job... Not a destination that 20year multi millionaires are eager to buy into and call home.

And yet we have a long list of 20 year old multi millionaires doing just that over the years. I mean, is Chabot is a star and a 20 year multi millionaire and signed here long term, despite the owner's antics.

First it was UFAs won't sign here because they'd rather play in a tax free state with great weather (yeah, can't use that one now can we?), and now its 20 year olds don't want to be here.

Such nonsense. Players will go where they are properly compensated.

Without looking it up, I'm willing to say every solid prospect we have ever drafted has signed a 2nd contract with the team.

 

[BondraTime]

And yet we have a long list of 20 year old multi millionaires doing just that over the years. I mean, is Chabot is a star and a 20 year multi millionaire and signed here long term, despite the owner's antics.
First it was UFAs won't sign here because they'd rather play in a tax free state with great weather (yeah, can't use that one now can we?), and now its 20 year olds don't want to be here. Such nonsense. Players will go where they are properly compensated.

Without looking it up, I'm willing to say every solid prospect we have ever drafted has signed a 2nd contract with the team.

Meszaros

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

News Article: - What did the Senators get out of trading EK65

I said on October 8th :

"if Dorion was criticized heavily for giving up a "lottery pick" in the Duchene trade, he needs to be praised the same way for getting one in the Karlsson trade. It's about staying consistent with criticism"

As we can see, it still hasn't changed much as we can still read posts of how lucky Dorion was... As I said, you have to be consistent with your criticism. If you criticized Dorion for "gift wrapping" a lottery pick to Colorado, then you have to praise him for getting one from the Sharks...

And even more IMO because Stuetzle > Byram

If you lamblasted Dorion, then it's even worse because you should kneel before him

Do you want a cookie or something? Sheesh.

 

[Sweatred]

Dadonov did. So did Chabot, White.

Dadonov took what was likely a third year ($5) that no one else would give him. Chabot and White are no brainers, those players don't have any "choice" other than to hold out and demand a trade. I'm sure we will sign Brady and Stutzle of their ELC/s, but when the time comes where they can control their destination there is no reason to think they chose Ottawa.

 

[umma gumma]

Meszaros

Figured there would have to be one! But was that because the team didn't like his demands, or because had issues with being a 20 some year old in Ottawa?

 

[Sweatred]

And yet we have a long list of 20 year old multi millionaires doing just that over the years. I mean, is Chabot is a star and a 20 year multi millionaire and signed here long term, despite the owner's antics.

First it was UFAs won't sign here because they'd rather play in a tax free state with great weather (yeah, can't use that one now can we?), and now its 20 year olds don't want to be here.

Such nonsense. Players will go where they are properly compensated.

Without looking it up, I'm willing to say every solid prospect we have ever drafted has signed a 2nd contract with the team.

You do understand that it is nearly impossible for a player off their ELC to relocate ? How many league wide have moved in the past 5 years who earn over $2 million/year?

 

[BondraTime]

Figured there would have to be one! But was that because the team didn't want like his demands, or because had issues with being a 20 some year old in Ottawa?

No clue just that he wanted out and told them he'd be signing the Tampa offersheet when it came

 

[umma gumma]

You do understand that it is nearly impossible for a player off their ELC to relocate ? How many league wide have moved in the past 5 years who earn over $2 million/year?

Again, we have long list of star players that have signed 3rd and 4th contracts here. Sure they may not dream of playing in Ottawa when they're young, but that doesn't mean they can't spend a few years here and grow to like the place. How many former Sens players thought they'd living in Ottawa after their career was over when they were just starting out? Sure, there are players that would rather be elsewhere. Problem is you're painting everyone with the same brush.

 

[Xspyrit]

Do you want a cookie or something? Sheesh.

Thank you for mocking my post. How many times have you lectured me and you come up with this lol

 

[Micklebot]

News Article: - What did the Senators get out of trading EK65

I said on October 8th :

"if Dorion was criticized heavily for giving up a "lottery pick" in the Duchene trade, he needs to be praised the same way for getting one in the Karlsson trade. It's about staying consistent with criticism"

As we can see, it still hasn't changed much as we can still read posts of how lucky Dorion was... As I said, you have to be consistent with your criticism. If you criticized Dorion for "gift wrapping" a lottery pick to Colorado, then you have to praise him for getting one from the Sharks...

And even more IMO because Stuetzle > Byram

If you lamblasted Dorion, then it's even worse because you should kneel before him



Actually, I think it's pretty standard that the team getting the "best player" wins in the short term but the team getting the futures win in the long term. Not only the team has young cheap players contributing, but they are also not paying a big salary to a player that has largely regressed

Unfortunately for the Sharks here, they didn't "win" for very long. It's like a Heatley 2.0 but even worse

Sure, most thought the Sharks were "big winners" in the Heatley trade but it didn't take long before Michalek was more useful to a hockey team for almost half of the salary.

Just wrt staying consistent;

We traded our 1st round pick to Col at a time when most outside sources had predicted we would miss the playoffs or be a bubble team.

We traded Karlsson to SJS, at a time when they were coming off a 100pts season and most saw them as a lock to make it again.

While it's certainly reasonable to be willing to give credit to Dorion for predicting SJ's decline, the situations of SJ and OTT were far from the same so to call people out for inconsitently applying credit or blame is imo unfair.

For example, if you took out all your retirement savings and spent it on scratch and win tickets and lost everything, i wiuld probably tell you that you should have known better to do that, where as if you invested it in an low risk long term investments that wildly underperformed I'd have more empathy. Conversly, i wouldn't praise you if the lottery tickets happened to win big (assuming you hadn't crunched the numbers to prove there was a statitical probability that they would).

Tldr; it's not inconsistent to treat situations differently when the circumstances differ, and imo the circumstances of those two trades do so.

Now, Dorion does deserve some credit for insisting that the pick not be protected, assuming that the reports he did are true, that doesn't mean he didn't get lucky though.

 

[Silencio]

No clue just that he wanted out and told them he'd be signing the Tampa offersheet when it came

Forgot about Meszaros....that was actually a blessing in disguise for Ottawa, Kuba put up 40 points his first year and was a big factor in EK's Norris winning season. Meanwhile Meszaros' numbers fell off a cliff with the exception of his first year in Philly.