What can we do to get Keefe fired.

See, that's why I had to ask exactly what you were referring to. I'm surprised you think this is anything close to the same situation.

- Sundin was a far superior player despite being 4 years older than JT is now
- Sundin actually was beloved
- Sundin had been with the team for over twice as long as JT has now
- Sundin had pulled his weight from a contract and expectations standpoint every year he was here, and was continuing to.
- Sundin had played in 15 playoff series with the Leafs, winning 7, so he had a lot more reason to feel like the team "owed" him the chance to determine his own destiny
- You contend that management turned the fanbase against a player, I'm contending that in this case the fanbase is already largely against this player and need to get management to get the memo: complete opposite.
- Sundin was in an "expiring contract" situation (on a mediocre, aging team that everyone knew needed to rebuild) and it was logical for management to trade him and logical for fans to expect it as well. The idea that it was "news" when Fletcher said it on the radio, is ludicrous. The fact that the Leafs weren't making the playoffs, had Sundin on an expiring contract and did not trade him, would have told us all we needed to know, whether Fletcher said anything or not. He didn't turn anyone against Sundin who wouldn't have already been annoyed by his refusal to move. JT, on the other hand, is not an expiring contract on a mediocre team, he's just an anchor on what could be a contender. The stakes are higher. He's the #1 thing preventing this team from having a chance at a Stanley cup, this season and next, while the rest of the core gets two years older.

... and you're worried about "class" :rolleyes:

Backing up a bit here, the whole point of my post was to point out that, as a fanbase, we either have the ability to influence management to fire Keefe or we don't. If we do, then we also have the ability to get them to move on from Tavares. Or, maybe we don't have the power to do either. But it seems, correct me if I'm wrong, that a lot of people seem to think we could do one, but not the other.

Not to take a firm position on the matter, but I remember whining and crying until they brought Clark back. And I remember Larry Murphy being run out of town for less than nothing just a year later. So it's not like it would be without precedent in Toronto. "But we're so helpless," say Leafs fans. "we can't move JT, has has a no move clause and he won't waive it no matter what they say. And besides, he's our beloved captain and it would be classless."
It would be a similar thing. Do people hate Tavares? I don't think so. They just hate that he's eating up $11m in cap space and declining heavily.

But you don't even ask. BUT, if you do, you don't do it like Fletcher did.

You say "JT, just gotta ask, and I hate that I'm asking because I know the answer is no, but would you be open to waving your no trade clause?"

JT "no"

Treliving "ok cool, hope I didn't offend you blahblah I'm happy you said no (just to smooth things over)"
 
See, that's why I had to ask exactly what you were referring to. I'm surprised you think this is anything close to the same situation.

- Sundin was a far superior player despite being 4 years older than JT is now
- Sundin actually was beloved
- Sundin had been with the team for over twice as long as JT has now
- Sundin had pulled his weight from a contract and expectations standpoint every year he was here, and was continuing to.
- Sundin had played in 15 playoff series with the Leafs, winning 7, so he had a lot more reason to feel like the team "owed" him the chance to determine his own destiny
- You contend that management turned the fanbase against a player, I'm contending that in this case the fanbase is already largely against this player and need to get management to get the memo: complete opposite.
- Sundin was in an "expiring contract" situation (on a mediocre, aging team that everyone knew needed to rebuild) and it was logical for management to trade him and logical for fans to expect it as well. The idea that it was "news" when Fletcher said it on the radio, is ludicrous. The fact that the Leafs weren't making the playoffs, had Sundin on an expiring contract and did not trade him, would have told us all we needed to know, whether Fletcher said anything or not. He didn't turn anyone against Sundin who wouldn't have already been annoyed by his refusal to move. JT, on the other hand, is not an expiring contract on a mediocre team, he's just an anchor on what could be a contender. The stakes are higher. He's the #1 thing preventing this team from having a chance at a Stanley cup, this season and next, while the rest of the core gets two years older.

... and you're worried about "class" :rolleyes:

Backing up a bit here, the whole point of my post was to point out that, as a fanbase, we either have the ability to influence management to fire Keefe or we don't. If we do, then we also have the ability to get them to move on from Tavares. Or, maybe we don't have the power to do either. But it seems, correct me if I'm wrong, that a lot of people seem to think we could do one, but not the other.

Not to take a firm position on the matter, but I remember whining and crying until they brought Clark back. And I remember Larry Murphy being run out of town for less than nothing just a year later. So it's not like it would be without precedent in Toronto. "But we're so helpless," say Leafs fans. "we can't move JT, has has a no move clause and he won't waive it no matter what they say. And besides, he's our beloved captain and it would be classless."
Perfect examples of why the team shouldn't listen to the fans.
 
Are you sure it was only in 2008 that they started to be referred to as that? I am pretty sure Bill Watters was using that term on a daily basis on Leafs Lunch as the 2007 deadline approached, possibly even 2006, but surely 07.

Maybe, I don't know it was a long time ago. I'm just saying how I think that could go down and it's not a good idea. He has one more year.

In fact, maybe his $11m cap hit does us a favour and we DON'T re-sign Marner to 8x$13M per.........

Like please god, please don't let that happen.
 
JT has a no movement clause, Keefe doesn't.

And Marner needs to go before JT because his attitude sucks and he will ask for the world in his next deal.
Clarkson had a NMC and was providing sub-replacement level performance for 7.6% of the cap. And we traded him. And it wasn't even that hard to do. JT is earning 13.5% of the cap but at least plays like he's worth $4-5. He's a better deal, with only a year left. He's moveable - anyone is, if Clarkson was. The main sticking point is his NMC, I agree. But if you make it clear that the player is not wanted, almost any player will get the message and waive it. A NMC is most of the time not a literal NMC, it's a "you can only trade me when/where I say" clause.

Perfect examples of why the team shouldn't listen to the fans.
Not saying those were good things in the end. But it's what the fanbase thought it wanted, and they helped make it happen. They were bad asset management moves for sure. Dumping JT would be the opposite.
 
It would be a similar thing. Do people hate Tavares? I don't think so. They just hate that he's eating up $11m in cap space and declining heavily.

But you don't even ask. BUT, if you do, you don't do it like Fletcher did.

You say "JT, just gotta ask, and I hate that I'm asking because I know the answer is no, but would you be open to waving your no trade clause?"

JT "no"

Treliving "ok cool, hope I didn't offend you blahblah I'm happy you said no (just to smooth things over)"
no, we don't hate Tavares, but he's not "beloved" like Sundin. Yes, we just hate his cap hit and performance. A lot of people believe he's a terrible, unemotional choice for captain, which is getting pretty close to the hate neighbourhood, but generally no, we don't hate him.

Of course you ask. Then you ask again. Then you tell him. The alternative to asking JT to waive his NMC is just resigning yourself to the fact that you cannot build a cup winner for this season or next. Why would anyone do that? Why would we want them to?
 
Not saying those were good things in the end. But it's what the fanbase thought it wanted, and they helped make it happen. They were bad asset management moves for sure. Dumping JT would be the opposite.
Neither move required player agreement and there was no cap to consider.

My impression at the rink is Tavares is still a popular player.
 
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no, we don't hate Tavares, but he's not "beloved" like Sundin. Yes, we just hate his cap hit and performance. A lot of people believe he's a terrible, unemotional choice for captain, which is getting pretty close to the hate neighbourhood, but generally no, we don't hate him.

Of course you ask. Then you ask again. Then you tell him. The alternative to asking JT to waive his NMC is just resigning yourself to the fact that you cannot build a cup winner for this season or next. Why would anyone do that? Why would we want them to?
Hey, I'll fully admit that JT shouldn't have been captian post Phaneuf (worst Leafs captain in my lifetime)

It should have been Morgan Rielly, it still should be him right now.

Can you just admit though, the idea of asking JT or trying to for him to wave his no trade clause is a bad idea based on the history of that type of thing in this market?

It's not gonna happen.
 
Can you just admit though, the idea of asking JT or trying to for him to wave his no trade clause is a bad idea based on the history of that type of thing in this market?
No, not in the least. "Not trying to win the cup" is a bad idea. And as long as one accepts having Tavares on their roster, that's exactly what they're doing.
 
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No, not in the least. "Not trying to win the cup" is a bad idea. And as long as one accepts having Tavares on their roster, that's exactly what they're doing.
Horrible response to that from me here, but "ok".

I highly doubt they even ask him. One more year, not a big deal. Have you looked at who's coming off the books at the end of the season? Pretty much every "problem" contract exept for Tavares.

We can keep it classy and hopefully not sign Marner to some stupid ass contract, but hey it's the Leafs so hold on to your butts right?
 
Horrible response to that from me here, but "ok".

I highly doubt they even ask him. One more year, not a big deal.
One more year, not a big deal??? Do you care about winning the cup? Every year that this team, with this core they drafted and developed, gets another year older without winning the cup is a HUGE deal. And every year where they don't even have a hope of doing so, is an even bigger deal.
 
I'm not saying Keefe is great, but I don't see how any other coach will make a significant difference in making the 'bottom 17' of the roster play better. This team's problem is more roster construction, not coaching.
 
I love how there's now a thread literally talking about what we as fans can do to get the coach fired, and yet I can't get a single person on board with working together as a fan base to address the real problem with the team: that it's impossible to build a championship winning squad with John Tavares earning $11 million. When it's that, everybody's like, "oh well, there's nothing we can do, we'll just have to wait until his contract is up and then we can contend again". Bullshit.
I’m willing to help you out, I will spread peanut butter on his car seat. When he sits down it will get on his butt and will look like he dropped a deuce in his pants. He will be so embarrassed he will never show up to the rink again
 
I’m willing to help you out, I will spread peanut butter on his car seat. When he sits down it will get on his butt and will look like he dropped a deuce in his pants. He will be so embarrassed he will never show up to the rink again


24 pages, but now we're finally getting somewhere. :DD

Could you do the same for Keefe?
 
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no, we don't hate Tavares, but he's not "beloved" like Sundin. Yes, we just hate his cap hit and performance. A lot of people believe he's a terrible, unemotional choice for captain, which is getting pretty close to the hate neighbourhood, but generally no, we don't hate him.

Of course you ask. Then you ask again. Then you tell him. The alternative to asking JT to waive his NMC is just resigning yourself to the fact that you cannot build a cup winner for this season or next. Why would anyone do that? Why would we want them to?
Well, that's a fair question or something to think about.

I guess I would say, because Toronto is a really f***ed up place for NHL players and managers and we will suck eternally because of it.

Best let it be. Skip the drama. JT ain't a bad guy as far as I can tell.
 
Well, that's a fair question or something to think about.

I guess I would say, because Toronto is a really f***ed up place for NHL players and managers and we will suck eternally because of it.

Best let it be. Skip the drama. JT ain't a bad guy as far as I can tell.
See, you're putting "skip the drama" ahead of "let's do everything we can to seriously challenge for a cup" ... And you told me my last response was terrible.
 
First step to move towards a winning team: Get Keefe the f*** out of here. This Winnipeg game underlines the fundamental problem with this team; because there's no structure, if none of the big 4 show up the team looks like complete dogshit. Good teams periodically win because their lower lines show up for a few games; the Leafs rarely get that because the coach considers the lower lines to be just above replacement.
 
See, that's why I had to ask exactly what you were referring to. I'm surprised you think this is anything close to the same situation.

- Sundin was a far superior player despite being 4 years older than JT is now
- Sundin actually was beloved
- Sundin had been with the team for over twice as long as JT has now
- Sundin had pulled his weight from a contract and expectations standpoint every year he was here, and was continuing to.
- Sundin had played in 15 playoff series with the Leafs, winning 7, so he had a lot more reason to feel like the team "owed" him the chance to determine his own destiny
- You contend that management turned the fanbase against a player, I'm contending that in this case the fanbase is already largely against this player and need to get management to get the memo: complete opposite.
- Sundin was in an "expiring contract" situation (on a mediocre, aging team that everyone knew needed to rebuild) and it was logical for management to trade him and logical for fans to expect it as well. The idea that it was "news" when Fletcher said it on the radio, is ludicrous. The fact that the Leafs weren't making the playoffs, had Sundin on an expiring contract and did not trade him, would have told us all we needed to know, whether Fletcher said anything or not. He didn't turn anyone against Sundin who wouldn't have already been annoyed by his refusal to move. JT, on the other hand, is not an expiring contract on a mediocre team, he's just an anchor on what could be a contender. The stakes are higher. He's the #1 thing preventing this team from having a chance at a Stanley cup, this season and next, while the rest of the core gets two years older.

... and you're worried about "class" :rolleyes:

Backing up a bit here, the whole point of my post was to point out that, as a fanbase, we either have the ability to influence management to fire Keefe or we don't. If we do, then we also have the ability to get them to move on from Tavares. Or, maybe we don't have the power to do either. But it seems, correct me if I'm wrong, that a lot of people seem to think we could do one, but not the other.

Not to take a firm position on the matter, but I remember whining and crying until they brought Clark back. And I remember Larry Murphy being run out of town for less than nothing just a year later. So it's not like it would be without precedent in Toronto. "But we're so helpless," say Leafs fans. "we can't move JT, has has a no move clause and he won't waive it no matter what they say. And besides, he's our beloved captain and it would be classless."
The fanbase doesn't have that kind of influence over any of it (re-acquiring Clark, trading away Murphy, firing Keefe, getting Tavares to waive his NMC). The situation with Tavares is also different from the previous situation with Sundin (a competitive team now versus a team trying to build anew back then; Tavares choosing to sign with the team he grew up cheering for). One would also have to believe that the team is spending its cap wisely beyond the 11M allocated to Tavares, and also that the 11M could then be transferred to a player or players that is or are a much better fit for said cap space, in order to determine that Tavares is preventing the team from winning. It's potentially quite the reach.
 
The fanbase doesn't have that kind of influence over any of it (re-acquiring Clark, trading away Murphy, firing Keefe, getting Tavares to waive his NMC). The situation with Tavares is also different from the previous situation with Sundin (a competitive team now versus a team trying to build anew back then; Tavares choosing to sign with the team he grew up cheering for). One would also have to believe that the team is spending its cap wisely beyond the 11M allocated to Tavares, and also that the 11M could then be transferred to a player or players that is or are a much better fit for said cap space, in order to determine that Tavares is preventing the team from winning. It's potentially quite the reach.
At this point, that $11M could be spent literally almost any other way and it would be more efficient and a better means of achieving the goal of winning a Stanley cup.

- Any other single player who makes $9M+? Yes.
- Any two good-to-great players who make $7M + $4M? Hard to imagine screwing that up.
- A star, a mid-roster player and a role player at $6M, $3M and $2M? Surely there are a few permutations of that, that you could come up with that don't look as attractive as paying JT $11M all by himself, but I see no reason to believe we'd go after poor values.
 
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At this point, that $11M could be spent literally almost any other way and it would be more efficient and a better means of achieving the goal of winning a Stanley cup.

- Any other single player who makes $9M+? Yes.
- Any two good-to-great players who make $7M + $4M? Hard to imagine screwing that up.
- A star, a mid-roster player and a role player at $6M, $3M and $2M? Surely there are a few permutations of that, that you could come up with that don't look as attractive as paying JT $11M all by himself, but I see no reason to believe we'd go after poor values.
My point was essentially that one player (expensive as that player might be) can't really make or break a team's Cup chances to that great of an extent. Expecting Tavares to waive also seems to be incredibly far-fetched when taking into account the motivations which brought him here (not to mention that Sundin and company refused to waive while playing for a far lesser team).
 
My point was essentially that one player (expensive as that player might be) can't really make or break a team's Cup chances to that great of an extent. Expecting Tavares to waive also seems to be incredibly far-fetched when taking into account the motivations which brought him here (not to mention that Sundin and company refused to waive while playing for a far lesser team).
Sure, we could complain about the high salaries of four other players and wish they took discounts and got paid more like other teams' comparable superstars, but ground zero was always the Tavares contract. He's probably the reason they're all being paid what they are, and he's the one of the five who's not earning remotely close to what he's being paid. You can't win with that kind of anchor. You need like $100M worth of performance from your team, so you need about $10M worth of efficiencies throughout the lineup. He makes that number $17M. Five or six players could all outperform their contracts by a fortuitous amount and it probably still would not be enough.
 

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