Confirmed with Link: Wes Clark leaves the Leafs for promotion with the Penguins

[leafs in five]

You know how to copy and paste?

that is the statement that you typed that I (mis)interpreted as meaning you thought that 31 other teams had good drafts (you said that 31 other teams made sound decisions at the draft). anyway

 

[Peasy]

IDK. Dubas didn't win anything but with him in charge it really felt like the Leafs were well run (outside of the commitment to the core which seems to be a Shanny thing).

I said it when Tre was hired, and I say it again now. As a long time fan, this shit just feels like slowly the Leafs are becoming what they were again and will lose their talent, lose their core pieces, refuse to rebuild and be mediocre and filled with awful contracts.



Posts like this is how you tell who is a new fan

Guy who sold the Leafs on doing a proper rebuild was Shanny/leiweke, not Dubas lol.

Issue has, and will always be ownership at the end of the day. People think just because the Leafs have owners that will spend to the cap every year that they're perfect, but they clearly get involved with a lot more than thats led on. Not to mention all the leaks about issues within the board and them all wanting different things. Look no further than the state of every other Toronto major spot franchises MLSE owns, theyre all a complete mess right now with the same ownership.

 

[Shooter2x]

IDK. Dubas didn't win anything but with him in charge it really felt like the Leafs were well run (outside of the commitment to the core which seems to be a Shanny thing).

I said it when Tre was hired, and I say it again now. As a long time fan, this shit just feels like slowly the Leafs are becoming what they were again and will lose their talent, lose their core pieces, refuse to rebuild and be mediocre and filled with awful contracts.



Posts like this is how you tell who is a new fan

Yeah, locking up two of their 3 best players with the 3rd to shortly follow sure sounds like losing their best talent and core pieces.

 

[A1LeafNation]

How many have left?

Darryl Belfry
Cam Charron
Jon Elkin
Jason Spezza
Kyle Dubas
Wes Clark
Laurence Gilman

Off the top of my head, Shammy is running a shitshow circus.

 

[nuck]

Darryl Belfry
Cam Charron
Jon Elkin
Jason Spezza
Kyle Dubas
Wes Clark
Laurence Gilman

Off the top of my head, Shammy is running a shitshow circus.

Which of these guys is an actual loss to the organization? Bodies in, bodies out. Coach and GM are material, the rest are just the periphery. Unless Shanny fires himself they can't do a real sea change in but I suspect he has lost a lot of his power this summer.

 

[Stephen]

I will give Wes Clark credit where credit is due.,. He sure did a hell of better job than Mark Hunter who was supposed to be some scouting savant.

Ben Danford seems like a nice pick at the moment, kind of addresses the Braden Schneider oversight in 2020 to get us a tough as nails 6’2” RHD.

But we also don’t know the trade down will work out as the best solution either. Solberg, Letourneau and Greentree were interesting picks and Sam O’Reilly fits that Easton Cowan trajectory too.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

IDK. Dubas didn't win anything but with him in charge it really felt like the Leafs were well run (outside of the commitment to the core which seems to be a Shanny thing).

I said it when Tre was hired, and I say it again now. As a long time fan, this shit just feels like slowly the Leafs are becoming what they were again and will lose their talent, lose their core pieces, refuse to rebuild and be mediocre and filled with awful contracts.

Nobody tell him.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Posts like this is how you tell who is a new fan

Right...that's it. If you re-read my post, maybe you'll better understand the context. I never said anything about the most inept GM (JFJ), senile GM (Fletcher 2.0) or the gawd awful ownership years this team had to endure (yes, I was a fan way back when for those days).

My point still stands. Dubas came in heralded as this amazing young GM who was going to revolutionize the position. He did anything but. He was given three of the best star/superstar talents this team has ever had and the league employs right now. They have a single Round 2 win to their name. For all the hype he came in with and the results (or lack thereof) seen over his GM tenure, it sure is right up there as one of the most overrated and underachieving management groups we have had.

Losing Clark may not be great. He did reasonably well with the later 1st round picks he's worked with the last couple years. But this team is not bumping with young talent in the system. I'd like to think there is at least a Wes Clark equivalent out there that can be found to usher in the new era at the draft table for the organization.

 

[Mess]

Ben Danford seems like a nice pick at the moment, kind of addresses the Braden Schneider oversight in 2020 to get us a tough as nails 6’2” RHD.

But we also don’t know the trade down will work out as the best solution either. Solberg, Letourneau and Greentree were interesting picks and Sam O’Reilly fits that Easton Cowan trajectory too.

I agree 100% with your point however I'm looking at this as almost and must do trade back..

Due to Dubass careless and reckless use of Leafs draft picks Leafs entered the 2024 draft with Zero draft picks in round #1, 2 3 and 4 for 2025. This after making only 3 picks in 2023 for BT inheriting this scorched earth that allowed the Cowan pick.

So what Treliving did by moving back 2 X he got his guy Ben Danford (closer to where his draft ranking was) he also added a 7th in 2024 Matt Lahey the big 6-5 210 Dman head to Clarkson Univ. NCAA and also Florida's 2nd round draft pick in 2025 (next year) .. So now the Leafs have at least that single pick in the top 120 selections for next year.. Without draft picks you don't even need amateur scouts.

So when viewing best solution for me its Solberg or Letourneau vs. Ben Danford & Matt Lahey & 2nd in 2025 (TBD) in a 3 for 1 as to which was best move. Now normally quality bests quantity but all prospects are suspects until proven otherwise.

That said you need great talent evaluators and decisions makers as amateur scouts because its SOOO important. Remember when in-term GM Dubas traded away the #24 in 2015 passing of Travis Konecny (564 games 174 - 226 - 400 pts & 410 Pims ) for Mark Hunter selections of #34 (Travis Dermott) + #61 (Jeremy Bracco) & #68 (Martins Dzierkals). While players like Sebastion Aha and Brendan Carlo went right after Dermott. Trading back and firing blanks can hurt an organization more than its intended help was.

So time will tell if Leafs got it right this time by trading back and if the now departed Wes Clark has a better eye for talent than Mark Hunter had, to make this all pay off.

PS. I wouldn't be surprised if part of the underlying trade back to get a pick next year might have been related to trying and keeping Wes Clark, because without a top 120 pick in 2025 what is Clark going to do all year? Leafs lack of draft picks next year also means no hurry to replace Clark in his role.

 

[Mess]

My point still stands. Dubas came in heralded as this amazing young GM who was going to revolutionize the position. He did anything but. He was given three of the best star/superstar talents this team has ever had and the league employs right now. They have a single Round 2 win to their name. For all the hype he came in with and the results (or lack thereof) seen over his GM tenure, it sure is right up there as one of the most overrated and underachieving management groups we have had.

Do people know that the 3 X Soo Greyhounds (OHL) Musketeers of Athos, Porthos and Aramis (ie. Dubas, Keefe and Wes Clark) all worked together and won only 1 single playoff round in the OHL as a managment trio between 2011-2014, before Dubas and Clark moved up to join the Leafs.

All 3 former Leaf management held the same roles in junior they did in NHL GM, Coach and Head Scout and together in the NHL they only also produced 1 single playoff (5 playoff games) max in a single season. Dubas couldn't wait long enough to fire Babcock to reunite the old SOO GANG by bringing in Keefe as coach.

The Leafs are one of the richest NHL franchises and management is not hired/deployed out of some Salary Cap constraints, then how in the bloody hell did Shanahan feel the need to go dumpster diving for this trio of unproven NHLers even at the OHL level, thinking it would bring the Leafs success to their Fortune 500 company at the NHL level?

Leafs have now wasted 8 years of the AM, MM and WN prime years all ending in failure because of unqulaified and incompetent management decisions.

Now Leafs have a new fresh start with new GM Tre who hired a proven Cup winning coach in Berube, and soon will replace Wes Clark who went back to his BFF in Pittsburgh, and Leafs will begin a new FRESH START ERA.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Now Leafs have a new fresh start with new GM Tre who hired a proven Cup winning coach in Berube, and soon will replace Wes Clark who went back to his BFF in Pittsburgh, and Leafs will begin a new FRESH START ERA.

That's a lot of fresh starts. Einstein would be proud.

 

[Captain34]

Do people know that the 3 X Soo Greyhounds (OHL) Musketeers of Athos, Porthos and Aramis (ie. Dubas, Keefe and Wes Clark) all worked together and won only 1 single playoff round in the OHL as a managment trio between 2011-2014, before Dubas and Clark moved up to join the Leafs.

View attachment 893878

All 3 former Leaf management held the same roles in junior they did in NHL GM, Coach and Head Scout and together in the NHL they only also produced 1 single playoff (5 playoff games) max in a single season. Dubas couldn't wait long enough to fire Babcock to reunite the old SOO GANG by bringing in Keefe as coach.

The Leafs are one of the richest NHL franchises and management is not hired/deployed out of some Salary Cap constraints, then how in the bloody hell did Shanahan feel the need to go dumpster diving for this trio of unproven NHLers even at the OHL level, thinking it would bring the Leafs success to their Fortune 500 company at the NHL level?

Leafs have now wasted 8 years of the AM, MM and WN prime years all ending in failure because of unqulaified and incompetent management decisions.

Now Leafs have a new fresh start with new GM Tre who hired a proven Cup winning coach in Berube, and soon will replace Wes Clark who went back to his BFF in Pittsburgh, and Leafs will begin a new FRESH START ERA.

Great post and I don't disagree. I would point out that Tre has not won anything either and has not shown the ability to build winning teams. I am not against Dubas and co being out, I just wish that they were replaced by innovative and bold thinkers, not the same old guard that has proven that they are average at best in this demanding job.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Which of these guys is an actual loss to the organization? Bodies in, bodies out. Coach and GM are material, the rest are just the periphery. Unless Shanny fires himself they can't do a real sea change in but I suspect he has lost a lot of his power this summer.

Yeah ok, the only bodies consistent with 6 years of losing are Shamahan and the core 5.

All leads to one guy for being a puss and not making hard decisions.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Guy who sold the Leafs on doing a proper rebuild was Shanny/leiweke, not Dubas lol.

Issue has, and will always be ownership at the end of the day. People think just because the Leafs have owners that will spend to the cap every year that they're perfect, but they clearly get involved with a lot more than thats led on. Not to mention all the leaks about issues within the board and them all wanting different things. Look no further than the state of every other Toronto major spot franchises MLSE owns, theyre all a complete mess right now with the same ownership.

Shanahan did good selling that. I am blaming him for refusing to change course at all and try anything new.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Will we be announcing his replacement soon?

 

[Mess]

Great post and I don't disagree. I would point out that Tre has not won anything either and has not shown the ability to build winning teams. I am not against Dubas and co being out, I just wish that they were replaced by innovative and bold thinkers, not the same old guard that has proven that they are average at best in this demanding job.

I agree with that also, but that is why this is all in Shanahan and his failed plan.. (Which includes paying 4 forwards 1/2 the Leafs Salary cap) because of "We Can and We Will"

MLSE hired a greenhorn President Shanahan who hired a greenhorn GM Dubas who hired a green coach Keefe & who also hired greenhorn amateur scouts in Mark Hunter/ Wes Clark.

I've been asking this question for years .. "What could possibly go right?" ..

While I have been bitterly disappointed by all the failures like many Leaf Fans, to say I'm surprised would be a bold face lie.

So will I feel we're better off now then before (low bar I know), we're still not out of the woods because Shanahan is still the one at the top making the calls.

Treliving has to move off this failed Core 4, and Leafs have to replenish their prospect pool and start drafting and developing well again so we have a long way to go, its still just early days.

At Least the Soo Greyhound management Era is OVER officially now.

 

[Captain34]

I agree with that also, but that is why this is all in Shanahan and his failed plan.. (Which includes paying 4 forwards 1/2 the Leafs Salary cap) because of "We Can and We Will"

MLSE hired a greenhorn President Shanahan who hired a greenhorn GM Dubas who hired a green coach Keefe & who also hired greenhorn amateur scouts in Mark Hunter/ Wes Clark.

I've been asking this question for years .. "What could possibly go right?" ..

While I have been bitterly disappointed by all the failures like many Leaf Fans, to say I'm surprised would be a bold face lie.

So will I feel we're better off now then before (low bar I know), we're still not out of the woods because Shanahan is still the one at the top making the calls.

Treliving has to move off this failed Core 4, and Leafs have to replenish their prospect pool and start drafting and developing well again so we have a long way to go, its still just early days.

At Least the Soo Greyhound management Era is OVER officially now.

I wish the Leafs cleaned house several years ago, from Shanahan down. To your point, as long as he remains in charge, the vision of the team and its execution will be more or less the same, whether it's Tre or Dubas as the GM.

We need someone like Brisebois, Zito, McCrimmon, Hughes, Jackson etc. who are gutsy, not afraid to make big moves and are innovative in so doing. Dubas, for all his faults, shown some ability to make creative deals and moves in his last year or so. I am wholly unimpressed by Tre's modus operandi in both Calgary and Toronto, and the results speak for themselves. He is becoming a dinosaur in a game that is fast evolving.

If the decision was to keep Dubas or replace him with Tre, I would have kept Dubas.

Again, all this to say, Shanahan has failed the team and this fanbase and hopefully this will be his last year with the Leafs.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Darryl Belfry
Cam Charron
Jon Elkin
Jason Spezza
Kyle Dubas
Wes Clark
Laurence Gilman

Off the top of my head, Shammy is running a shitshow circus.

M Night shanahan with his next hoax

 

[HolyCrap]

M Night shanahan with his next hoax

I will always refer to him by this name going forward. lol.

 

[Peasy]

I wish the Leafs cleaned house several years ago, from Shanahan down. To your point, as long as he remains in charge, the vision of the team and its execution will be more or less the same, whether it's Tre or Dubas as the GM.

We need someone like Brisebois, Zito, McCrimmon, Hughes, Jackson etc. who are ballsy, not afraid to make big moves and are innovative in so doing. Dubas, for all his faults, shown some ability to make creative deals and moves in his last year or so. I am wholly unimpressed by Tre's modus operandi in both Calgary and Toronto, and the results speak for themselves. He is becoming a dinosaur in a game that is fast evolving.

If the decision was to keep Dubas or replace him with Tre, I would have kept Dubas.

Again, all this to say, Shanahan has failed the team and this fanbase and hopefully this will be his last year with the Leafs.

Does no one else really feel like this is likely/part ownerships doing?

I feel like they're scared of losing a star like Marner and the public perception the casuals and other fans would have. Look at how Keefe was told to walk back his comments when he called out the stars. They also know the team the way it is, is a lock to make the playoffs. While they still havent done much, thats guaranteed revenue and who knows, maybe they win a round or two for some more. Also who is selling more jerseys this year, Mitch Marner or whoever comes in to fill in?

Leafs won't trade Marner, will likely try to re-sign him during the year to an over paid contract. Leafs will get bounced in round 1 again, Shanny will be canned, and then its up to Keith Pelley (lol) to find a replacement. Whoever the replacement in still won't be allowed to make crazy shake up moves.

I just don't see a world where this organization allows such ruthless moves like what has happened in Vegas. I would LOVE to be wrong though.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

He can go and pick Dubas' favorite sized players 5'9" to 5'11" and 170 to 180lbs. He was picking bigger guys for us recently because Tre wanted them...Dubas wants what he wants and will get plenty of those guys in the draft....their not big enough to win board battles and not "Tyler Ennis" enough to be fast and slippery with skill off the charts...the Meh of hockey players size is Dubas' favorite...the ones nobody else wants.

Knies, Minten, Grebenkin were drafted under Dubas before Tree got here

 

[notbias]

Ben Danford seems like a nice pick at the moment, kind of addresses the Braden Schneider oversight in 2020 to get us a tough as nails 6’2” RHD.

But we also don’t know the trade down will work out as the best solution either. Solberg, Letourneau and Greentree were interesting picks and Sam O’Reilly fits that Easton Cowan trajectory too.

Schneider sucks.

Do people know that the 3 X Soo Greyhounds (OHL) Musketeers of Athos, Porthos and Aramis (ie. Dubas, Keefe and Wes Clark) all worked together and won only 1 single playoff round in the OHL as a managment trio between 2011-2014, before Dubas and Clark moved up to join the Leafs.

View attachment 893878

All 3 former Leaf management held the same roles in junior they did in NHL GM, Coach and Head Scout and together in the NHL they only also produced 1 single playoff (5 playoff games) max in a single season. Dubas couldn't wait long enough to fire Babcock to reunite the old SOO GANG by bringing in Keefe as coach.

The Leafs are one of the richest NHL franchises and management is not hired/deployed out of some Salary Cap constraints, then how in the bloody hell did Shanahan feel the need to go dumpster diving for this trio of unproven NHLers even at the OHL level, thinking it would bring the Leafs success to their Fortune 500 company at the NHL level?

Leafs have now wasted 8 years of the AM, MM and WN prime years all ending in failure because of unqulaified and incompetent management decisions.

Now Leafs have a new fresh start with new GM Tre who hired a proven Cup winning coach in Berube, and soon will replace Wes Clark who went back to his BFF in Pittsburgh, and Leafs will begin a new FRESH START ERA.

Now do the AHL, there is a reason all the people got a promotion.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Does no one else really feel like this is likely/part ownerships doing?

I feel like they're scared of losing a star like Marner and the public perception the casuals and other fans would have. Look at how Keefe was told to walk back his comments when he called out the stars. They also know the team the way it is, is a lock to make the playoffs. While they still havent done much, thats guaranteed revenue and who knows, maybe they win a round or two for some more. Also who is selling more jerseys this year, Mitch Marner or whoever comes in to fill in?

Leafs won't trade Marner, will likely try to re-sign him during the year to an over paid contract. Leafs will get bounced in round 1 again, Shanny will be canned, and then its up to Keith Pelley (lol) to find a replacement. Whoever the replacement in still won't be allowed to make crazy shake up moves.

I just don't see a world where this organization allows such ruthless moves like what has happened in Vegas. I would LOVE to be wrong though.

I believe what you described is happening but I really don’t get it. They sell out the stadium with a Laich-Bozak-Parenteau top line, what possible negative impacts of trading Marner can there be? Sportsnet gets thousands of hours of content to cover, fan engagement shoots up. They’re getting 4 games of playoff revenue regardless, everyone who wants a Marner jersey already has one and his year 1 signing bonus will probably be more money spent than the value of all lifetime jersey sales for him.

I really just don’t see the downside, people aren’t going to leave the fan base over a Marner trade if they stuck through JFJ Burke and Nonis for a decade. If anything I could see more people tapering down how much they care and spend out of boredom of seeing the same team lose the same way every year.

 

[socko]

If Wes comes in a package deal with Dubas, that is an easy pass. Do the Pens have room for Shanahan and Marner?

One of the things I respect about Keefe is he didn't follow Dubas. That was a great career move for him.

 

[SprDaVE]

If Wes comes in a package deal with Dubas, that is an easy pass. Do the Pens have room for Shanahan and Marner?

One of the things I respect about Keefe is he didn't follow Dubas. That was a great career move for him.

Apparently one stipulation out of that gig is that Sullivan is not to be fired since he's very well liked by the owners. That might change in the next few years of course.