Welcome to (failed) TED Talk - TED is dead.

[TheLegend]

I live in Mesa, and even I think that Fiesta Mall location is a disaster.

People coming from Tempe/Scottsdale are not going to like fighting the traffic coming down the 101/60. It's brutal.

I did that commute from 2001-2008. It was brutal then, and even with the L202 now there it's worse.

It's the east valley's version of I-10 between The Stack and 75th Ave.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Which is good, because there's no substantive difference between Fiesta Mall and Westgate, except that one is east and one is west of Central Avenue.

ehhhhh.....that's a little west biased...to an east biased guy like me, *Superstition Springs* Mall and Westgate would be equivalent. Fiesta to me would be more like MetroCenter.

(yes I know there's plenty west and north of Westgate now, but there's also a lot south and east of Fiesta toward Queen Creek/San Tan Valley as well, and no end in sight there either.)

I did that commute from 2001-2008. It was brutal then, and even with the L202 now there it's worse.

It's the east valley's version of I-10 between The Stack and 75th Ave.

And I did the MetroCenter commute 1998-99, 2003-07. Equally brutal

 

[AZDesertKnight]

Which is good, because there's no substantive difference between Fiesta Mall and Westgate, except that one is east and one is west of Central Avenue.

Wrong. It’s about 20 minutes from Scottsdale, chandler and Gilbert and in Mesa itself. Would 100% work there.

Traffic isn’t that bad. Most folks would go home first, get their kids and show up after rush hour. Plus a ton of surface street options.

The location is markedly better than the Tempe site traffic wise

 

[Jamieh]

Craig was on Leaf's Lunch this morning and he gave a much more level headed interview. I'm guessing people were right yesterday and emotion just got away from him.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

ehhhhh.....that's a little west biased...to an east biased guy like me, *Superstition Springs* Mall and Westgate would be equivalent. Fiesta to me would be more like MetroCenter.

Yeah, well... to a west-sider like me, the subtleties are lost - it's just "FAR." In fairness, isn't that what most folks on the east side said about Westgate? So it really comes down to a level of caring based on how much inconvenience one is subjected to. Of course, it also comes down to a question of which group of people deserve to be less inconvenienced, and that's when things get ugly around here, so let's not go there.

And I did the MetroCenter commute 1998-99, 2003-07. Equally brutal

When I lived in Paradise Valley, I did the daily commute down to the Arizona Mills area. It suuuuuuuuucked.

Wrong. It’s about 20 minutes from Scottsdale, chandler and Gilbert and in Mesa itself. Would 100% work there.

...for Chandler, Gilbert, and Mesa residents, sure. And Glendale worked wonderfully for Glendale, Peoria, Goodyear, Avondale, and Phoenix residents. See where I'm going?

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Now that I’ve had a couple of nights to think about it, some thoughts:

1. The project was a mistake from the onset. It was concocted by people unfamiliar with the Arizona political climate, and certainly unfamiliar with Arizona’s referendum laws.

Meruelo and Co should have known NOT to expose their project to a public referendum. (see history of Chase Field). In today’s political climate voters are wary of being screwed. Not only do they distrust the rich, they distrust the very processes meant to protect them. No ad campaign can overcome such a strong protection instinct.

 

[Edenjung]

The funny thing with traffic is that it is induced.
Meaning the more roads and lanes you have, the more Traffic.
That might sound counter intuitive or even unlogical, but has been scientifically proven over and over again.

But its hard to sell and most people doubt it directly. Because the First thought is " more Road, more space for Cars so more space for each one" but in the end everybody thinks so and Drives. So you don't have any Long Term positive effect.

Long-term evidence on induced traffic: A case study on the relationship between road traffic and capacity of Budapest bridges

Reducing urban road congestion by infrastructure development promises lower travel times, reduced pollution and wider economic benefits. However, besi…

www.sciencedirect.com

Traffic forecasts ignoring induced demand: a shaky fundament for cost-benefit analyses

vbn.aau.dk

What's Up With That: Building Bigger Roads Actually Makes Traffic Worse

The concept is called induced demand, which is economist-speak for when increasing the supply of something (like roads) makes people want that thing even more. Though some traffic engineers made note of this phenomenon at least as early as the 1960s, it is only in recent years that social...

www.wired.com

Why the Concept of Induced Demand Is a Hard Sell

Both the public and policymakers have trouble understanding why building more roads and highways does not reduce congestion.

www.governing.com

That doesn't mean that no roads at all should be build or that chokepoints should Not be removed.
Intersections of highways should have broard roads for example so that transitioning is smooth. But to handle Traffic and to make it less alternatives have to be build and they have to be as good as driving a car. Then less people Drive the Car, thus less traffic.
The netherlands are a good example for that. Everybody Profits from a diverse travel system.
But again thats hard to sell. And If you have to many nimbys then you have a Problem.

Anyways. I took a day of from Here and a 9h train ride today and can now come back fresh.
Was good to clear my mind.

My opinion is basically, f*** nimbys. They are a stain on earth. Everywhere they are they kill stuff. For example Germany Has been building a Power grid from north to south to get the Green Energy from the north to the south where its needed. Well everybody Has their opinion why they don't want it. And they started planning in 2011 and they Project it to be finished in 2028.
17 fracking years. For a freaking Power Cord.

Same for train Tracks or everything Else.
You can't do Shit Here with the populus.
The only way to get to them is direct contact.
And the Problem is Not Public votes. We so Not Vote on stuff Like that. But buying Land, Leasing Land from people. And especially people suing. That Takes forever. And drags the Project down the drain.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Anyways. I took a day of from Here and an 9h train ride today and can now come back fresh.

You mention the word "train" and suddenly I remember taking the T to see Red Sox games in Boston and now I'm once again irrationally aggravated that nothing that cheap, easy, and convenient exists in Phoenix.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

2. City of Tempe lawyers committed malpractice here. They, more than Meruelo, should have seen the potential outcome from the outset. If they couldn’t help design the project to avoid referendum, they should have advised Tempe not to move forward.

 

[LuckyNumber11]

Fairly certain I know the answer, but the light rail does not make it around Fiesta Mall correct?

 

[Bonsai Tree]

3. Meruelo needs to be the face of the team, not a hired hand like XG. A reclusive owner breeds mistrust.

 

[InfoDesk]

And Craig says there is… it’s all speculation and people wanting clicks. How are some of you not immune to these rumors by now? Lol.

I gave up on the emotional investment into the off ice stuff a couple seasons back. Suggest others do the same.

I hope they stay and if they don’t… I’ll be a fan free agent and I’ll pick another team to follow

There is a plan b and its a glorious one. I reported on these possible plans in a previous post.

 

[Edenjung]

You mention the word "train" and suddenly I remember taking the T to see Red Sox games in Boston and now I'm once again irrationally aggravated that nothing like that exists in Phoenix.

I Had to Change trains 6 Times because i was riding the slower regional ones and Not the fast Intercity Express (ICE).
But for 49€ a month through the whole of Germany? Hell yeah.

But trains and train Tracks die with nimbys.
Germanys train system is old, slow and the delays are huge.

 

[LAIslanderFan]

If I could chime in with a few thoughts.
- Did Alex Meruelo purchase the Coyotes to own a sports franchise or for real estate purposes?
My understanding is that he wanted to own a team. If that was his priority, there's no way he's selling the team and they're staying in AZ. For the team to go to Houston or any of the other cities mentioned, he would probably sell the team.
- Robert Sarvar is probably the unheralded villain in all this. If you recall, one of the issues the City of Phoenix had expressed when considering spending the money to renovate Footprint, was to make it workable for hockey as well. Robert Sarvar refused, even though the city of Phoenix was putting up $250 million to renovate. It seems Phoenix should have pressured him to do so, or hold up the money. That would have been the answer pre-Meruelo.
- In regards to where to build the arena. Tempe is out, based on the recent vote and the negative press it seems to have stirred up. It will never happen in Phoenix proper, since the city doesn't want competition with Footprint. I can't see Scottsdale residents approving it either, following in Tempe's footsteps. I'm not all that familiar with Mesa, but I think that may be an option (it's just a sense I have, with very little logic behind it). I still think Glendale could be an
outside player, I don't see how an arena that size, can work without a major tenant. Both Glendale and Meruelo would really have to come up with a good deal, that might need to include other real estate. It really makes sense for both. I don't see any other options without getting too far from the center city(I would love it in Surprise, but I get it).
- From the team on the ice's perspective, I really saw them taking big leap this year with all of the projects, and if the new arena had passed, I would imagine there would have been some real quality free agents willing to sign. With that all happening, the product on the ice, would have really propelled AZ as a hockey market and shutdown the rest of the complainers in Canada and elsewhere.
- Every hockey fan in the Valley should boycott that ladies bookstore (I'm bitter).

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Fairly certain I know the answer, but the light rail does not make it around Fiesta Mall correct?

It goes out farther east than Fiesta Mall, but it's several blocks north of the site (IIRC, the light rail goes east/west on Main St. and Fiesta Mall is Southern and Alma School).

There is a plan b and its a glorious one. I reported on these possible plans in a previous post.

You did? Your profile only has one post at the time of this writing and it's this one.

 

[RemoAZ]

You guys keep looking at it from a fan's travel perspective. That isn't the issue. Meruelo doesn't give a shit about the fans. Follow the money. He needs a location he can get a great deal on land to develop including, yes even if you all want to ignore it, "tax breaks" or however you want to label it because I don't care what term you use to make you "feel" better. It amounts to the same thing. The only thing that comes into play with "location" is whether people will come to the shops, businesses and residential to spend their money. Whether it's convenient for fans to get to the games is waaaaaay down the priority list and will not make or break where it ends up. Sharing an arena with the Suns absolutely will not happen unless the Suns' owner buys the team. That makes zero money for Meruelo so it's not an option.

 

[TheLegend]

Now that I’ve had a couple of nights to think about it, some thoughts:

1. The project was a mistake from the onset. It was concocted by people unfamiliar with the Arizona political climate, and certainly unfamiliar with Arizona’s referendum laws.

Meruelo and Co should have known NOT to expose their project to a public referendum. (see history of Chase Field). In today’s political climate voters are wary of being screwed. Not only do they distrust the rich, they distrust the very processes meant to protect them. No ad campaign can overcome such a strong protection instinct.

The "project" wasn't a mistake. The campaign for it was poorly executed.

Also.... just poked around the campaign financing website and Meruelo DID spend most of the $500K+ he gave to the PAC. So the notion he "cheaped out" is nonsense.

Tempe1st still shows their small amounts. But they got massive help from a national PAC based out of LA.

 

[LAIslanderFan]

I live in Mesa, and even I think that Fiesta Mall location is a disaster.

People coming from Tempe/Scottsdale are not going to like fighting the traffic coming down the 101/60. It's brutal.

I live in Surprise, and I'll come. If the team improves on the ice, attendance wont's be an issue.
I don't accept the idea that people won't travel to the games. The team has not been very good for quite a while and there have been issues with ownership. I grew up on Long Island and had no problem driving for 45 minutes to Islanders games. 3-4 times a year, I'd get into traffic and drive an hour or more to go to Yankees stadium. I don't understand all of the fuss.

 

[Mosby]

Let’s be honest here, sadly a lot of them will be dead in 5 years.

Sadly?

 

[TheLegend]

2. City of Tempe lawyers committed malpractice here. They, more than Meruelo, should have seen the potential outcome from the outset. If they couldn’t help design the project to avoid referendum, they should have advised Tempe not to move forward.

It was going to a referendum no matter what Tempe did.... full stop.

Unless of course you'd rather see a load of lawsuits filed and the project tied up for months, if not years.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Craig was on Leaf's Lunch this morning and he gave a much more level headed interview. I'm guessing people were right yesterday and emotion just got away from him.

I'll have to check it out.

I just re-listened to part of his interview on The Marek Show. Wanted to make sure I heard something Morgan said that bothered me a little bit all night. Loose quote here, "Tempe City Council was wondering in February when they were going to start their campaign since the opposition had been up and running for two months already by then." Then he went into how ludicrous it was to get outspent by the opposition too which is "mind-boggling considering the stakes here."

Started too late, outspent, didn't listen to the right people. Now, here we are learning that "Plan B" is nothing more than a desperate hunt for a solution, not an actual solution.

It frustrates the hell out of me to think they were ready to pop the champaign until the votes came in and weren't even close.

 

[InfoDesk]

It goes out farther east than Fiesta Mall, but it's several blocks north of the site (IIRC, the light rail goes east/west on Main St. and Fiesta Mall is Southern and Alma School).



You did? Your profile only has one post at the time of this writing and it's this one.

Sadly it was removed.

I mentioned i know salt river has already contacted the coyotes

The next option is Fiesta Mall and work with the current redevelopment team.

The other option is to sell or partner with Ishbia to build new hockey rink downtown phx south of Chase Field or spend another 200 to 300 million to make footprint hockey ready. Which is unlikely. Obstructed seats would be likely

Then Tucson is the last resort. And that city is wanting a massive development for downtown

 

[LuckyNumber11]

The other option is to sell or partner with Ishbia to build new hockey rink downtown phx south of Chase Field or spend another 200 to 300 million to make footprint hockey ready. Which is unlikely. Obstructed seats would be likely

I just can't see Ishbia partnering with us given his partnership with Phoenix and the Mereulo lawsuit against Phoenix. I'm sure it has been dropped but it is still a tough sell for the city.

 

[JasonDemersWasOkay]

Which is good, because there's no substantive difference between Fiesta Mall and Westgate, except that one is east and one is west of Central Avenue.

I’ll disagree with you there. Having lived in both the west and east valleys recently, the vibe in that area is so different from west gate. There’s already a lot of restaurants/bars around the area, and it’s right off the highway. 20 minute drive from pretty much everywhere else in the east valley.

 

[GhostofTommyBolin]

I live in Surprise, and I'll come. If the team improves on the ice, attendance wont's be an issue.
I don't accept the idea that people won't travel to the games. The team has not been very good for quite a while and there have been issues with ownership. I grew up on Long Island and had no problem driving for 45 minutes to Islanders games. 3-4 times a year, I'd get into traffic and drive an hour or more to go to Yankees stadium. I don't understand all of the fuss.

They made it to the WCF in 2012 and were dead last in the NHL in attendance.