Buffalo Bills Week 15: Buffalo (10-3) at Detroit (12-1), 12/15, 4:25 PM, CBS

misterchainsaw

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The thing that scares me about Baltimore is the home run ability in the run game. They can just break the big one at any time, and our defense is still susceptible to that.
They can line up full house and beat you to the corner from it. Lamar has been pretty good from the pocket this year at all levels of throws and it just makes that offense unfair.

I think I'm glad for the result tonight, even if there were some fun thoughts of the Chargers having a shot at the Chiefs in the west if they got past this game.

I'm not sure I'd hate the 2 seed if it meant the Chiefs and Ravens playing in round two and us getting, well, ANYONE else.
 

Zman5778

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I'm not sure I'd hate the 2 seed of it meant the Chiefs and Ravens playing in round two and us getting, well, ANYONE else.
If getting the 2 seed means we get the Dolphins/Chargers/Broncos/Colts at home in the WC round.....and then the Steelers in the divisional round (or another one of the Dolphins/Chargers/Broncos/Colts)? And only have to play either the Ravens OR the Chiefs?

As opposed to the bye and then BOTH the Ravens AND Chiefs?

I know I'm supposed to say I want the bye. I know I'm supposed to say I want to beat the best on the way to a 'Ship.

I don't think I can say either.


That said, in an ideal world -- we get the 1 seed. Divisional round against the Texans or Steelers and then the AFCGC at home against the winner of Ravens/Chiefs - who beat each other into a bloody pulp.
 

TehDoak

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I think it's safe to say at this point that LA's defensive numbers were inflated by a weak schedule to open the season. Baltimore having their way with them after a slow-ish start.

I actually think their offense's inability to sustain drives was the issue today and red zone problems. The game was close until the 4th quarter. If they score 3 TDs and 1 FG instead of 1 TD and 3 FGs before the start of the 4th, its a much different game. So many dropped passes by the chargers, especially in the second half. The lack of weapons in the passing game for Herbert is going to be their doom.

The game turned when they went 3 and out on their second drive of the second half and punted it back to the ravens. They broke a 51 yard run for a TD and then the game was downhill for Baltimore instead of back and forth.

And this game was actually extremely important for the Chargers because their BEST case scenario was to be the 5 seed and play Houston in the WC round. Now its likely they get the 6 seed with one of Baltimore/Pittsburgh getting the 5 seed, which means they have to travel to the other.
 

yahhockey

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Steelers: @ Bengals, vs Browns, @ Eagles, @ Ravens, vs Chiefs, vs Bengals
Ravens: vs Eagles, @ Giants, vs Steelers, @ Texans, vs Browns

They currently have the same number of wins but the Steelers have one less loss. The Ravens still have a decent shot at winning the division. I wouldn't be gunning for the two seed with the expectations the Ravens remain the fifth seed. Even if they remain the fifth seed it's not out of the realm of possibility that a team goes into Pittsburgh and wins so that team would play KC and Buffalo still faces Baltimore in the divisional round. It is advantageous to play one less playoff game. The potential hypotheticals about opponents has too many unknowns. The known of guys being healthier and having one less game on their body to potentially cause injuries is more important. If the Ravens falter down the stretch and end up fifth or lower then maybe they aren't the team you are scared to face.
 

TehDoak

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Milano will help, but he won't solve the issue. It's a scheme problem.

Buffalo will give up the runs to the second level. The problem is that if a RB can break contain on the 2nd level they can break off a huge run. Go back and look at the big runs, its almost always a clean hole where an RB can get some momentem and then run past a linebacker to the secondary and it becomes a foot race.

Its really just a trade off, big runs like that are rarer than big pass plays, and teams need more to go right for it to happen. Its frustrating, for sure. But overall success of the defense suggests its the proper decision.
 

Jim Bob

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Milano will help, but he won't solve the issue. It's a scheme problem.

Buffalo will give up the runs to the second level. The problem is that if a RB can break contain on the 2nd level they can break off a huge run. Go back and look at the big runs, its almost always a clean hole where an RB can get some momentem and then run past a linebacker to the secondary and it becomes a foot race.

Its really just a trade off, big runs like that are rarer than big pass plays, and teams need more to go right for it to happen. Its frustrating, for sure. But overall success of the defense suggests its the proper decision.
I would argue that it is a scheme choice and not a scheme problem.

There is no defensive scheme that can take away everything that a quality NFL offense wants to do. The Bills defense is designed to take away explosives in the passing game first and foremost. That is why they have played nickel about 80% of the time, dime about 20% of the time, and rarely played with either 3 LBs or with a heavy box.

The Bills D is 7th in Points Allowed, 7th in Passing Yards per Attempt, 4th in INTs, & t-5th in fumbles recovered.

Because they play so much nickel and dime and they play so many light boxes and dare teams to run against them, they get gashed in the running game when they make alignment and/or run fit mistakes. But, that is the gamble they are willing to make in order to make it really hard to get explosive plays in the passing game.

They are making the bet that explosive running plays are rarer than explosive passing plays if they were to take Taron Johnson off the field and play a 4-3. Or, if they were to load up the box against the run on a more regular basis and give up more on the backend.

And even with all that, the Bills have only given up 6 rushing TDs this season (tied for 3rd fewest in the NFL).

They give up a lot of yards per carry (t-3rd worst at 4.8 YPC), but they have been good at stopping the run in the red zone and not giving up rushing TDs.

At the end of the day, I'll take a defense that is pretty good at taking the ball away, not giving up a lot of points, and has been solid when needed for the most part (red zone & second half).
 

Der Jaeger

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Milano will help, but he won't solve the issue. It's a scheme problem.

Buffalo will give up the runs to the second level. The problem is that if a RB can break contain on the 2nd level they can break off a huge run. Go back and look at the big runs, its almost always a clean hole where an RB can get some momentem and then run past a linebacker to the secondary and it becomes a foot race.

Its really just a trade off, big runs like that are rarer than big pass plays, and teams need more to go right for it to happen. Its frustrating, for sure. But overall success of the defense suggests its the proper decision.
I would argue that it is a scheme choice and not a scheme problem.

There is no defensive scheme that can take away everything that a quality NFL offense wants to do. The Bills defense is designed to take away explosives in the passing game first and foremost. That is why they have played nickel about 80% of the time, dime about 20% of the time, and rarely played with either 3 LBs or with a heavy box.

The Bills D is 7th in Points Allowed, 7th in Passing Yards per Attempt, 4th in INTs, & t-5th in fumbles recovered.

Because they play so much nickel and dime and they play so many light boxes and dare teams to run against them, they get gashed in the running game when they make alignment and/or run fit mistakes. But, that is the gamble they are willing to make in order to make it really hard to get explosive plays in the passing game.

They are making the bet that explosive running plays are rarer than explosive passing plays if they were to take Taron Johnson off the field and play a 4-3. Or, if they were to load up the box against the run on a more regular basis and give up more on the backend.

And even with all that, the Bills have only given up 6 rushing TDs this season (tied for 3rd fewest in the NFL).

They give up a lot of yards per carry (t-3rd worst at 4.8 YPC), but they have been good at stopping the run in the red zone and not giving up rushing TDs.

At the end of the day, I'll take a defense that is pretty good at taking the ball away, not giving up a lot of points, and has been solid when needed for the most part (red zone & second half).
Agree, it is not a scheme problem. It's a scheme design.

Buffalo's defense is very similar to the Tampa 2 defense from 25 years ago, Dallas' defense from the early 1990s, and the mid-2010s Bills defense. All those defenses featured a talent-heavy defensive line which valued single gap penetration to disrupt blocking schemes, and then a back seven which played heavy zone to read and react to what came of the line of scrimmage play. All of these defenses are derivatives of the 1970s Steeler defenses.

When you play that type of defense, you are committing to minimizing big passing plays but you can get gashed by a power running game if the runner hits the right gap. It's risk reward and you need to have a high level of talent in the front four.

Dallas overcame the run game deficiencies by rotating six linemen next to Charles Haley. Russell Maryland, Tony Casillas, and Tony Tolbert played on run downs, and Leon Lett, Jimmy Johnson, and Jim Jeffcoat played on passing downs. It also helped that Dallas had a possession offense which didn't turn the ball over and controlled time of possession.

Tampa was able to overcome the run issues in a bunch of different ways. First, they had 3 HoF caliber linemen in Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, and Booger McFarland. Second, they were able to afford Derrick Brooks, John Lynch, and Ronde Barber on defense by being very frugal on offense. Third, Tampa ran a possession passing attack (Gruden's horizontal attack) combined with running from Mike Alstott to keep the ball from opponents.

The mid-2010 Bills had Mario Williams, Marcell Darius, Jerry Hughes, and Kyle Williams on their front 4. Maybe one of the most talented defensive lines in history, just part of a team that didn't win anything so no one remembers them.

If I'm the Bills, I don't think taking swings at a crazy talented defensive line or stacking the 2nd and 3rd level of the defense is the way to go. I'd look at a Dallas style line where you can rotate in talent. In the most recent mock draft I ran, I had the Bills taking Landon Jackson and Dontay Corleone in the second round, and Nazir Stackhouse later in the draft, because of my preference for this method.

In terms of defensive scheme and complimentary football, the Bills are fine. Brady is running a ball control offense, which when it is working, gets the Bills points while keeping the ball away from the other team (see the KC game). When you start to get into those types of games, the opposing offense gets down and the OC can get impatient. That will drive play calling towards passes, which is exactly what the Bills want.

If anything, I think Babich should be prepared to add in a traditional 4-3 alignment with Taron Johnson going to safety, in the event they are getting gashed by the run in the playoffs and the game is tight. Besides that, it's all working.
 

Dirty Dog

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I don’t necessarily disagree about all the scheme talk.

But I’m also not going to pretend that generally whenever you see a huge run we’ve given up, you’ll see a horrible individual play from both (or at least) a safety and linebacker. Dorian Williams completely biting on a misdirection or damar hamlin over committing to a horrible angle up near the line scrimmage that removes himself from the play.

So I don’t think giving up huge plays is inherent in the scheme, I think it’s the result of poor execution.
 

ValJamesDuex

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I don’t necessarily disagree about all the scheme talk.

But I’m also not going to pretend that generally whenever you see a huge run we’ve given up, you’ll see a horrible individual play from both (or at least) a safety and linebacker. Dorian Williams completely biting on a misdirection or damar hamlin over committing to a horrible angle up near the line scrimmage that removes himself from the play.

So I don’t think giving up huge plays is inherent in the scheme, I think it’s the result of poor execution.
They have given up those types of running plays going back to Frazier, but I also agree about your point about players, so I think it's a bit of both.
 
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Dirty Dog

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They have given up those types of running plays going back to Frazier, but I also agree about your point about players, so I think it's a bit of both.
I tried to see a stat of giving up 20 plus yard runs in a year, but couldn’t find any! I definitely remember giving up those plays, but I wonder where the bills fall relative to the rest of the league
 
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Der Jaeger

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I don’t necessarily disagree about all the scheme talk.

But I’m also not going to pretend that generally whenever you see a huge run we’ve given up, you’ll see a horrible individual play from both (or at least) a safety and linebacker. Dorian Williams completely biting on a misdirection or damar hamlin over committing to a horrible angle up near the line scrimmage that removes himself from the play.

So I don’t think giving up huge plays is inherent in the scheme, I think it’s the result of poor execution.
It's not by design to give up big running plays, but it's susceptible to getting gashed on the ground.

Eg: in McDermott's defense, the 1DT (Jones) is taking an A Gap, and the MLB (Bernard) is taking the other A gap. The 3DT (Oliver) has a B gap, and the WLB (Williams) has the B gap, the strong side end (Rousseau) plays the C gap, the weak side end (Epenesa) has C gap and contain. The NB (Johnson) has strong side contain. (This is really simple for illustrative purposes). If anyone makes a mistake, the Bills don't have a lot of take-on players, so they get blocked and the run is successful. Also, the NB having a gap/contain responsibility is tough.

Now look at a defense like the Steelers. They play a gap control 3-4 (and have for a while). The NT (Benton) is playing NT and stacking both A gaps. Heyward plays LE, which is typically strong side, and he's stacking the strongside B and C gap. That leaves Watt to purely contain. On the weakside, Ogunjobi is one-gaping the B gap, and Highsmith has contain. Queen and Roberts/Wilson are the ILBs. They are checking and filling the inside gaps, which should be taken by a lineman, but they are there to fill. It's old 1980s 3-4 ILB technique. So, if the NT or strongside DE stack their two gaps, the linebackers are free to flow to the ball.

Now see how well Pittsburgh does against Baltimore. It's scheme. Baltimore just needs one or two good blocks and they get yards against Buffalo. Or a mistake, as you noted. But against Pittsburgh, they have layers or run defenders for inside gaps. Heyward and Benton don't need to blow up their blockers, just prevent them from turning them. Then the gaps are free for the ILBs to fill. Highsmith and Watt are left to contain and then chase.

The flip side is that Pittsburgh can be beaten by big pass plays, particularly if you can catch the ILBs on play action.
 
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K8fool

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Milano will help, but he won't solve the issue. It's a scheme problem.

Buffalo will give up the runs to the second level. The problem is that if a RB can break contain on the 2nd level they can break off a huge run. Go back and look at the big runs, its almost always a clean hole where an RB can get some momentem and then run past a linebacker to the secondary and it becomes a foot race.

Its really just a trade off, big runs like that are rarer than big pass plays, and teams need more to go right for it to happen. Its frustrating, for sure. But overall success of the defense suggests its the proper decision.
just like the large freakish athlete we let go to Chicago , it is our scheme but in a positive way , we are designed to til w the right mind and ability

I think it's why a middling athlete like damar and backups succeed more than a new talent because it's a thinking man's D that's intuitive to aggressive guy that know and are certain

a new guy no matter the talent may look slow snd washed while cam Lewis and damar seem to be in the right place, on time


milano is faster and elite so he can arrive early or flush so Bernard can w line and backers intact healthy and seasoned by Jan1 , we have a very good chance w Oliver and Daquan in lanes to stop any rushing attack like Baltimore


we'll see if we've improved on D w screens and overpursuit out of lanes and shedding blocks

that's what teams need to create to run against us w our starters , milano and Bernard ( those two are finally the best version of McD vision and hopefully our two undersized bit strong dts are better than a Star loteleie.)

hopefully the safeties can fill to limit run w the strength and reaction that hyde and Tre majored in tfl making McD defense come alive

I do believe Babich believes in McD and has learned to play jazz and be unpredictable as Sean McDermott has too much film on his tendencies

and Babich much like Joe Brady liked our system agreed w McD but knew how to innovate without scrapping and starting over

guys that likely wouldn't be physically gifted enough on other teams and schemes have jobs here w truly intimate knowledge of the various fluid dynamic and flow rates of line movement


instincts better than a , ay the physical freak specimen MLB they let go in favor of a body w proper tackling ability that knows where to be


milano really figured it like Bernard and can truly attack in this structure with them attacking without mistake the rest of the D flourishes like when Rousseau steps up Oliver penetrates and Von remembers to be von like that first game last year against super bowl Rams We exposed the Rams like we exposed the Cowboys in 22 and like we mainly exposed KC aside from suddenly giving up d pass interference and holding etc

I wouldn't worry about our d against anyone should we be lucky enough to be healthy and if we are at home wow we would stand a chance w out Josh at his best as we have many times in the past


w Josh in complete control of his body and mind and this I line w a team full of gym rat football geeks Josh supplies the swagger

milano and Bernard understand to moving holes in our d and hyde poyer and mostly Tre understood how to



This should be very interesting two months of Buffalo football and Hockey where we all go enjoy the ride of highly possible favorable outcomes the we control



apologies about length just wanted to be very clear by what I thought a healthy milano brings w Bernard to cover and turn him loose as he was elite hopefully still bit def knows the D and can help Dorian
 

Husko

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McDermott's scheme puts a lot of individual responsibility on the spine of the defense to make the right reads and be in the right position against the run. There's no nose tackle clogging up space to let the second level rally to the ball carrier. Instead, with both DTs allowed to shoot gaps and penetrate, if a single DE, LB, or S fails to take the right lane, they're liable to be gashed. And when you have Williams and Hamlin as two people often in those positions, you're going to get gashed from time to time.
 
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ValJamesDuex

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Snow expected this weekend. Worst Saturday, OP on the fringe per Phammer. FYI
(start posting on Niners sm ;))

 
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Der Jaeger

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For the Bills upgrades in the off-season, I've been pretty consistent looking for:

DL help
OT and C
WR

Part of that is thinking the best way for the Bills defense to remain good is to rotate defensive linemen. The OL part is something I started to see when the Bills drafted Torrence. They like to keep their guards in and pull OTs and the C. Torrence was very effective against Jones. I think Dawkins can extend his career at LG, and that would give the Bills two really big OGs going into the future.

Drafting an OT, starting them at LG, and then moving them to LT, has been done a lot. It works. I'd give that a try.

Also, for receivers, take a look at Jalen Royals from Utah State. Might be a good day 2-3 receiver that can stretch the field.
 

ValJamesDuex

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For the Bills upgrades in the off-season, I've been pretty consistent looking for:

DL help
Agreed

Really ?
Both starting tackles are signed and playing well, they like and have developed Van Demark and Grable started the season as the starting swing tackle.

Anderson is the swing G and can backup all along the line. You could use a upgrade on Edwards imo so I like the idea of drafting a G Rnd 2-6

McGovern seems to have settled in at C, and Van Pran Granger is the apparent future C and Anderson can also backup.

WR

Also, for receivers, take a look at Jalen Royals from Utah State. Might be a good day 2-3 receiver that can stretch the field.

I see them adding weapon either through FA, trade or draft especially if Copper does not come back and or they dump Samuel of course.
 

Der Jaeger

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Agreed


Really ?
Both starting tackles are signed and playing well, they like and have developed Van Demark and Grable started the season as the starting swing tackle.

Anderson is the swing G and can backup all along the line. You could use a upgrade on Edwards imo so I like the idea of drafting a G Rnd 2-6

McGovern seems to have settled in at C, and Van Pran Granger is the apparent future C and Anderson can also backup.



I see them adding weapon either through FA, trade or draft especially if Copper does not come back and or they dump Samuel of course.
I like all those guys, but I'd love to add a high end OT who can be groomed behind Dawkins. I don't think Van Demark, Grable, Anderson, or Clayton are the future at LT unless one develops in a Jason Peters style path. And that's wishing upon a star. I'd rather grab a higher end talent on day 1 or 2. If any of those guys I listed becomes something, then it's just gravy.

I like SVPG but I don't think he's got an exclusive grip on the future at center. I'd feel a lot better about it if Beane added Monheim or Foster and made it more competitive.

I can see another mid-level FA at WR. I don't see them breaking the bank. I think Kincaid, Shakir, and Coleman are going to be the primary weapons, so adding a speedy boundary receiver would do a lot to free them up.
 
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